Merged Continuation - 9/11 CT subforum General Discussion Thread

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... The NIST report is an embarrassing admission of how thoroughly the material (evidence?) was destroyed. ...?
Prove it. Show your work. When will you prove your delusional claim, and what engineering journal will you publish in? What engineering school did you graduate from? Where is your evidence? Why have you failed to make a valid point? Oh, no evidence. Good job so far proving you have no clue what happen on 911, what is next for your tour of summer failure? You posted nonsense with no supporting facts and evidence. Do you understand you are evidence/fact free?

You are making the claim, prove it. Present your evidence. Do you know what evidence is? It is not your in your post.
 
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Prove it. Show your work. When will you prove your delusional claim, and what engineering journal will you publish in? What engineering school did you graduate from? Where is your evidence? Why have you failed to make a valid point? Oh, no evidence. Good job so far proving you have no clue what happen on 911, what is next for your tour of summer failure? You posted nonsense with no supporting facts and evidence. Do you understand you are evidence/fact free?

You are making the claim, prove it. Present your evidence. Do you know what evidence is? It is not your in your post.

Look at the report. Look for the pictures showing the material that they could conclusively prove. None of the relevant floors have more than 1% of the material accounted for. In modeling it is called the initial conditions.
When you have to guess this much on the initial conditions you can get any result you want. I would guess 60 to 80% could still be borderline but acceptable.

The only thing "fingertip" about this investigation were the controls on the front end loader.
 
DD, please tell us how one might identify specific items from the locations of interest. Keeping in mind that there were fires both before and after the collapses that might obscure or obliterate any markings remaining from the buildings construction.

The very nature of the buildings construction (and this actually applies to just about any steel skyscraper ever built) made for hundreds or even thousands of identical parts. The very nature of the collapses guaranteed that, unlike in a much shorter structure, determining the original location of any one piece by where it landed was impossible.
 
What did happen was three complete and totally destructive collapses that could not have occurred by gravitational energy alone after the fire damage that caused the collapses to begin at a specific focal point was no longer a contributing factor. That is why the NIST report explained how the collapses began but not how they were able to continue beyond the initial structural failure.

You've not established any of that. Now, where is the evidence of remote control? I'm still waiting for the explosive residue as well.
 
lunatic conspiracy theories don't care about evidence
Unlike your posts I can be very specific about what evidence makes them lunacy. For example AE911 treats buildings with totally different engineering as the same thing, physicists like David Chandler who screw up on understanding the conservation of momentum, and all those who lack the capacity to think about context when using quotes from witnesses. I can go on and on. As you say, I don't come from the moon, the failures mentioned above are extremely basic.

The report should not be construed as being absolute and final. Any direct physical evidence directly contradicting or modifying the NIST conclusion, probably no longer exists (if it ever did). A narrative SUPPORTED by confessions and other evidence could amend or modify the NIST conclusions.


If there are other factors involved in the collapses at WTC, indications for the existence of this evidence will have to be found somewhere else.
I'll avoid the snarky attitude and ask you bluntly; how much of the report have you actually read? And can you be specific about what facets of the report lead the the faulty conclusions you claim it has? If you've read the report and are familiar with its arguments then this shouldn't be a difficult question to answer.
 
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lunatic conspiracy theories don't care about evidence

I do not come from Earth's moon.

The NIST report is an embarrassing admission of how thoroughly the material (evidence?) was destroyed. Take the known videos and add a narrator and that is the NIST Report. They actually showed some integrity by not going past basic conclusions. The report should not be construed as being absolute and final. Any direct physical evidence directly contradicting or modifying the NIST conclusion, probably no longer exists (if it ever did). A narrative SUPPORTED by confessions and other evidence could amend or modify the NIST conclusions.

If there are other factors involved in the collapses at WTC, indications for the existence of this evidence will have to be found somewhere else.

This part of the official narrative (The WTC Site Only) appears to be supported (or at least very difficult to dislodge). There are a lot more loose threads about 9-11 to pull on.

Would anyone have any objections to me pulling the legs off of the spider, when I find it?


Structural engineers had full access to all the steel at the salvage yards. They selected the pieces they wanted to save. NIST studied these. All the structural drawings and specs were available. NIST reviewed thousands of pictures and videos. FEA and LS-DYNA was used to model the behavior the buildings from planes damage and fires.

NIST’s conclusion that fire and impact damage caused the collapse of the towers confirms the many other structural engineering studies, some from other countries, that preceded the NIST report.

To dipute NIST’s and the other independent engineers’ conclusion that fire and planes damage were the causes for the collapse of the Towers, you need to provide a report at the same level of analysis that NIST produced that shows that fire and damage could not have been the cause of failure . But not being a structural engineer, this task is impossible for you.

The claim that additional steel, besides that selected by the structural engineers would have changed NIST's fire and impact damage conclusions is wishful speculation without basis in evidence.
 
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Look at the report. Look for the pictures showing the material that they could conclusively prove. None of the relevant floors have more than 1% of the material accounted for. In modeling it is called the initial conditions.
When you have to guess this much on the initial conditions you can get any result you want. I would guess 60 to 80% could still be borderline but acceptable.

The only thing "fingertip" about this investigation were the controls on the front end loader.
You failed to make a point, and failed to prove anything more than you don't understand engineering and models. Where is your proof, this nonsense is not proof.
 
NIST Report Bogus

http://commdocs.house.gov/committees/science/hsy77747.000/hsy77747_0.htm

The investigation has been hampered by a number of issues, including:

No clear authority and the absence of an effective protocol..... Early confusion over who was in charge of the site and the lack of authority of investigators to impound pieces of steel for examination before they were recycled led to the loss of important pieces of evidence that were destroyed early during the search and rescue effort. In addition, a delay in the deployment of FEMA's BPAT team may have compounded the lack of access to valuable data and artifacts.

Difficulty obtaining documents essential to the investigation …..,The documents are necessary to validate physical and photographic evidence and to develop computer models that can explain why the buildings failed and how similar failures might be avoided in the future.

Uncertainty as a result of the confidential nature of the BPAT study: The confidential nature of the BPAT study may prevent the timely discovery of potential gaps in the investigation, which may never be filled if important, but ephemeral evidence, such as memories or home videotapes, are lost. Why was it secret, Standard Loyal Bushie Duh Information is Dangerous Duh


Uncertainty as to the strategy for completing the investigation and applying the lessons learned: The BPAT team does not plan, nor does it have sufficient funding, to fully analyze the structural data it collected to determine the reasons for the collapse of the WTC buildings. (Its report is expected to rely largely on audio and video tapes of the event.) Nor does it plan to examine other important issues, such as building evacuation mechanisms. Instead, FEMA has asked the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) to take over the investigation. Yet so far, NIST has not released a detailed plan describing how it will take over the investigation, what types of analyses it will conduct, how it will attempt to apply the lessons it learns to try to improve building and fire codes, and how much funding it will require.

The 23-member BPAT team conducted an analysis of the wreckage on-site, at Fresh Kills Landfill and at the recycling yard from October 7–12, 2001, during which the team extracted samples from the scrap materials and subjected them to laboratory analysis. Why the analysis was conducted only after a delay of three weeks after the attacks remains unclear. Since November, members of the Structural Engineers Association of New York (SEAoNY) have volunteered to work on the BPAT team's behalf and are visiting recycling yards and landfills two to three times a week to watch for pieces of scrap that may provide important clues with regard to the behavior of the buildings.


In the month that lapsed between the terrorist attacks and the deployment of the BPAT team, a significant amount of steel debris—including most of the steel from the upper floors—was removed from the rubble pile, cut into smaller sections, and either melted at the recycling plant or shipped out of the U.S. Some of the critical pieces of steel—including the suspension trusses from the top of the towers and the internal support columns—were gone before the first BPAT team member ever reached the site. Fortunately, an NSF-funded independent researcher, recognizing that valuable evidence was being destroyed, attempted to intervene with the City of New York to save the valuable artifacts, but the city was unwilling to suspend the recycling contract. Ultimately, the researcher appealed directly to the recycling plant, which agreed to provide the researcher, and ultimately the ASCE team and the SEAoNY volunteers, access to the remaining steel and a storage area where they could temporarily store important artifacts for additional analysis. Despite this agreement, however, many pieces of steel still managed to escape inspection.

As a result, independent researchers are unsure how they can contribute to the understanding of how the buildings fell without unnecessarily duplicating work. Others fear that the BPAT's silence on the scope of its report may allow critical aspects of the picture to be missed, and that, by the time the report is released and any such gaps are discovered, the trail of evidence that could provide answers may have grown cold.

How about 8 years later and Ice Cold
 
http://commdocs.house.gov/committees/science/hsy77747.000/hsy77747_0.htm

The investigation has been hampered by a number of issues, including:

No clear authority and the absence of an effective protocol..... Early confusion over who was in charge of the site and the lack of authority of investigators to impound pieces of steel for examination before they were recycled led to the loss of important pieces of evidence that were destroyed early during the search and rescue effort. In addition, a delay in the deployment of FEMA's BPAT team may have compounded the lack of access to valuable data and artifacts.

Difficulty obtaining documents essential to the investigation …..,The documents are necessary to validate physical and photographic evidence and to develop computer models that can explain why the buildings failed and how similar failures might be avoided in the future.

Uncertainty as a result of the confidential nature of the BPAT study: The confidential nature of the BPAT study may prevent the timely discovery of potential gaps in the investigation, which may never be filled if important, but ephemeral evidence, such as memories or home videotapes, are lost. Why was it secret, Standard Loyal Bushie Duh Information is Dangerous Duh


Uncertainty as to the strategy for completing the investigation and applying the lessons learned: The BPAT team does not plan, nor does it have sufficient funding, to fully analyze the structural data it collected to determine the reasons for the collapse of the WTC buildings. (Its report is expected to rely largely on audio and video tapes of the event.) Nor does it plan to examine other important issues, such as building evacuation mechanisms. Instead, FEMA has asked the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) to take over the investigation. Yet so far, NIST has not released a detailed plan describing how it will take over the investigation, what types of analyses it will conduct, how it will attempt to apply the lessons it learns to try to improve building and fire codes, and how much funding it will require.

The 23-member BPAT team conducted an analysis of the wreckage on-site, at Fresh Kills Landfill and at the recycling yard from October 7–12, 2001, during which the team extracted samples from the scrap materials and subjected them to laboratory analysis. Why the analysis was conducted only after a delay of three weeks after the attacks remains unclear. Since November, members of the Structural Engineers Association of New York (SEAoNY) have volunteered to work on the BPAT team's behalf and are visiting recycling yards and landfills two to three times a week to watch for pieces of scrap that may provide important clues with regard to the behavior of the buildings.


In the month that lapsed between the terrorist attacks and the deployment of the BPAT team, a significant amount of steel debris—including most of the steel from the upper floors—was removed from the rubble pile, cut into smaller sections, and either melted at the recycling plant or shipped out of the U.S. Some of the critical pieces of steel—including the suspension trusses from the top of the towers and the internal support columns—were gone before the first BPAT team member ever reached the site. Fortunately, an NSF-funded independent researcher, recognizing that valuable evidence was being destroyed, attempted to intervene with the City of New York to save the valuable artifacts, but the city was unwilling to suspend the recycling contract. Ultimately, the researcher appealed directly to the recycling plant, which agreed to provide the researcher, and ultimately the ASCE team and the SEAoNY volunteers, access to the remaining steel and a storage area where they could temporarily store important artifacts for additional analysis. Despite this agreement, however, many pieces of steel still managed to escape inspection.

As a result, independent researchers are unsure how they can contribute to the understanding of how the buildings fell without unnecessarily duplicating work. Others fear that the BPAT's silence on the scope of its report may allow critical aspects of the picture to be missed, and that, by the time the report is released and any such gaps are discovered, the trail of evidence that could provide answers may have grown cold.

How about 8 years later and Ice Cold
Wow, the big letters, will those help you earn a Pulitzer?
Wow, cut and paste your quote-mining cherry-picking way to delusional nonsense. Good job. 10 years and you can't figure out 19 terrorists did 911 - the Passengers on Flight 93 figured out 911 in minutes; why have you failed in 10 years?
You post disjointed cherry-picked quotes and call NIST bogus. The only bogus thing here is your method of making conclusions, and the conclusion.
 
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And do any of the people in the report you quoted believe the towers were brought down by flying magnets, spray-on gel acid, beams from space, or any other such nuttery?
 
I don't think that this was under oath, since that would mean that the Bushidiots would also be under oath.

MARCH 6, 2002 So it is 6 months after 9-11.

The propaganda machine must have been really busy since then.

Uncertainty as to the strategy for completing the investigation and applying the lessons learned: The BPAT team does not plan, nor does it have sufficient funding, to fully analyze the structural data it collected to determine the reasons for the collapse of the WTC buildings. (Its report is expected to rely largely on audio and video tapes of the event.) They knew they didn't have enough material to do a proper job. NIST would inherit the same lack of materials, even with funding, their job was to waste even more time, and let the trail go colder.

This is the standard bureaucratic response, though technically it is a conspiracy, we have become so jaded, we call it a procedure now.

The NIST report is fluff, I knew that as soon as I saw the inventory report.
 
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I don't think hat this was under oath since that would mean that the Bushidiots would also be under oath.

If you were right, why would "under oath" matter? You don't think it's possible to lie "under oath"?

Why don't you stop the "truther" talking points and think for once?
 
Wow, the big letters, will those help you earn a Pulitzer?
Wow, cut and paste your quote-mining cherry-picking way to delusional nonsense. Good job. 10 years and you can't figure out 19 terrorists did 911 - the Passengers on Flight 93 figured out 911 in minutes; why have you failed in 10 years?
You post disjointed cherry-picked quotes and call NIST bogus. The only bogus thing here is your method of making conclusions, and the conclusion.
Read it all and then YOU prove it is cherry picking!

No a couple other people I know, already have dibs on the Pulitzer.

I just want the simple pleasure of watching a heart monitor, flatline.
 
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Some people like to make an analogy between a ball of twine and a conspiracy.

I prefer to think of it as elastic thread, wrapped tightly into a ball.

The thread takes as long, to unwind, almost as long as it did to wind.

Once the the elastic loose thread gets so long, it begins to unwind very rapidly, it takes hardly any effort, (or time), to unwind it.

Read todays headlines, the conspiracy IS unwinding!
 
If you were right, why would "under oath" matter? You don't think it's possible to lie "under oath"?

Why don't you stop the "truther" talking points and think for once?

Under oath means that if any information is found in the future that both contradicts what you said and that you knew it was a lie you can be charged with perjury.

Scooter Libby lied to the FBI, it wasn't outing Valerie Plame that got him into trouble.

As long as the Bush White House could make and plant statements without being under oath, it is just propaganda PR. Under oath they become legally binding statements.
 
I'll ask again; How much of the actual report have you read? Can you tell us from your reading what issues you have with the report.

Put yourself in the position of doing the computer model.
Look at NIST NCSTAR 1-3B . Using the photographs of the inventoried steel, set the initial conditions for the model. You are screwed.

Just use the model the initial plane impact, you say. Using an unverified model to input to another model is the equivalent to jerking off, programming wise.

They needed to save about 3 or 4 floors from each building. About 3% from each building.

The testimony at the house reveals that the priority was the recycling of steel, CONTRACT. Why sign a contract that is in obvious conflict with any investigation?


Approx .5% of each building was saved. Very few pieces come from the floors of interest.


In the month that lapsed between the terrorist attacks and the deployment of the BPAT team, a significant amount of steel debris—including most of the steel from the upper floors—was removed from the rubble pile, cut into smaller sections, and either melted at the recycling plant or shipped out of the U.S. Some of the critical pieces of steel—including the suspension trusses from the top of the towers and the internal support columns—were gone before the first BPAT team member ever reached the site.

Why do my quotes mean nothing. Who is the real skeptic here?
 
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