Merged Continuation - 9/11 CT subforum General Discussion Thread

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An hour on a fire of the size we are discussing is probably comparable to a full shift on most construction jobs I have worked on.

I would be willing to say maybe even a week's worth of 8 hr. shifts.


It also has a little more serious emotional consequences, too.

Yeah, the only way that construction could come close, is if there was a strickly observed time limit.

1 minute to nail off a 4x8 sheet of plywood for a roof. If you exceede the 1 minute time limit, the guy next to you falls off the roof.

5 minutes to set 2 trusses. At 5:01, the guy next to you falls to his death. No exceptions, no extentions in time.


Whiney kid voice....


But Tri, what do you know about construction. You're just a firefighter.....you're not a carpenter....

I built the house that I am in with my own bare hands. From the floor up. KMA.
 
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Consider this:

"Then we received an order from Fellini, we’re going to make a move on 7."
Capt. Boyle - Firehouse Magazine

Keep reading it until you understand what it says.

Yep, and they were, until they were overruled by people who knew it was too dangerous, and not a priority.
 
I have read the entire quote and understand his feelings about the situation.

The barrage of insults from the peanut gallery tries in vain to ignore the simple fact that they had enough firefighters to fight the fires in WTC 7.
 
They had plenty of water, and plenty of firefighters. Groovy. Someone said "don't go in"....and they didn't.

If they did? If YOU were in charge? The 343 could have been more like 543. You would willfully murder 200 more firefighters because of your lack of knowledge, incompetence and hubris. Stick to banging nails. I find it unlikely you're even any good at that.
 
They had plenty of water, and plenty of firefighters. Groovy. Someone said "don't go in"....and they didn't.

If they did? If YOU were in charge? The 343 could have been more like 543. You would willfully murder 200 more firefighters because of your lack of knowledge, incompetence and hubris. Stick to banging nails. I find it unlikely you're even any good at that.

If they had fought the fire the nonsense of fire weakening the steel wouldn't have happened and therefore no collapse.
 
Boyle: There were four engines and at least three trucks. So we're heading east on Vesey, we couldn't see much past Broadway. We couldn't see Church Street. We couldn't see what was down there. It was really smoky and dusty.

Before we took off, he said, look, if you see any apparatus, strip the apparatus for hose, nozzles, masks, anything you can get. As we headed east, we reached Church and then we were midway from there and then all of a sudden, we could see 5 come into view. It was fully involved. There was apparatus burning all over the place. Guys were scrambling around there. There were a lot of firemen, and there was a lot of commotion, but you couldn't see much that was going on. I didn't see any lines in operation yet. But we found a battalion rig there. We got a couple of harnesses out of there. We had some bottles from another rig, so we put together a couple of masks.

We went one block north over to Greenwich and then headed south. There was an engine company there, right at the corner. It was right underneath building 7 and it was still burning at the time. They had a hose in operation, but you could tell there was no pressure. It was barely making it across the street. Building 6 was fully involved and it was hitting the sidewalk across the street. I told the guys to wait up.

A little north of Vesey I said, we'll go down, let's see what's going on. A couple of the other officers and I were going to see what was going on. We were told to go to Greenwich and Vesey and see what's going on. So we go there and on the north and east side of 7 it didn't look like there was any damage at all, but then you looked on the south side of 7 there had to be a hole 20 stories tall in the building, with fire on several floors. Debris was falling down on the building and it didn't look good.

But they had a hoseline operating. Like I said, it was hitting the sidewalk across the street, but eventually they pulled back too. Then we received an order from Fellini, we're going to make a move on 7. That was the first time really my stomach tightened up because the building didn't look good. I was figuring probably the standpipe systems were shot. There was no hydrant pressure. I wasn't really keen on the idea. Then this other officer I'm standing next to said, that building doesn't look straight. So I'm standing there. I'm looking at the building. It didn't look right, but, well, we'll go in, we'll see.

So we gathered up rollups and most of us had masks at that time. We headed toward 7. And just around we were about a hundred yards away and Butch Brandies came running up. He said forget it, nobody's going into 7, there's creaking, there are noises coming out of there, so we just stopped. And probably about 10 minutes after that, Visconti, he was on West Street, and I guess he had another report of further damage either in some basements and things like that, so Visconti said nobody goes into 7, so that was the final thing and that was abandoned.

Totally different than what you say, when you actually READ THE WHOLE PASSAGE. Why is it that their word is gold on one point, but not on another point made in the same **** paragraph? I mean, what the **** is that?!?
 
If they had fought the fire the nonsense of fire weakening the steel wouldn't have happened and therefore no collapse.

They were told not to go in by actual adults. You'll figure it out when you get there. To the rest of the known universe, Clayton, the decisions they made regarding fighting WTC 7 or not are known as "common sense".
 
I have read the entire quote and understand his feelings about the situation.

The barrage of insults from the peanut gallery tries in vain to ignore the simple fact that they had enough firefighters to fight the fires in WTC 7.

So why didn't they Chris7?

A simple answer will do.
 
They had plenty of water, and plenty of firefighters. Groovy. Someone said "don't go in"....and they didn't.
Thank you for finally admitting that they had enough water and firefighters to fight the fires in WTC 7.

The prolific writers here have filled 10 or 20 pages with denial of and diversion from this simple point.
 
This is the denial tactic of implying that I made this determination and it is utterly false.

NIST L pg 36
A progression of column failure to adjacent columns would have been arrested by the vierendeel action of the perimeter moment frame, which could span across a sizeable opening due to the strength and stiffness of the frame.

NCSTAR 1-A
Other than initiating the fires in WTC 7, the damage from the debris from WTC 1 had little effect on initiating the collapse of WTC 7. The building withstood debris impact damage that resulted in seven exterior columns being severed

And it took years of analysis, computer modeling, and multitude of experts did it take to reach that conclusion.

The only people that think the NYFD made the wrong decision regarding WTC 7 on 9-11-01 are either willfully ignorant or terminally stupid.
 
I never served in the military. I also think that what Chris is missing is a sense of priority, life (even if it was only perceived)) or property. Fortunately the professionals on site at the time did not have this problem.

Something being amiss WRT the collapse of WTC 7 is the only way that the cynical delusions and fantasies of the troofer "movement" can be maintained. :eek:
 
Thank you for finally admitting that they had enough water and firefighters to fight the fires in WTC 7.

The prolific writers here have filled 10 or 20 pages with denial of and diversion from this simple point.

Truth be told - (imagine that) I don't believe they had enough water or manpower for a second. I'm simply barging past that idiotic point to get to another one. Which is, if they DID go in, as you would have demanded, they'd all be DEAD.
 
Thank you for finally admitting that they had enough water and firefighters to fight the fires in WTC 7.

The prolific writers here have filled 10 or 20 pages with denial of and diversion from this simple point.

I still disagree 100%.

Priorities. I know, you HATE the word, because you CANNOT get around it.

Priorities.
 
Thank you for finally admitting that they had enough water and firefighters to fight the fires in WTC 7.

The prolific writers here have filled 10 or 20 pages with denial of and diversion from this simple point.
So, now can you explain why they should have made WTC7 a priority?
 
And it took years of analysis, computer modeling, and multitude of experts did it take to reach that conclusion.
No. Simply looking at the damage and the fact that there was no progressive failure is enough to determine that the building was not in any danger of collapse.

There is a large hole and the corner column is missing but there was no collapse. It is self evident that the moment frames redistributed the weight.
 
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