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There are truly no atheists in foxholes

hmm.... maybe you'd better alert holocaust survivors about these "facts." Seems like a lot of them said they lost their faith in the concentration camps.
 
TFian said:
I don't have any offhand.
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You have no sources for any of his claims? That isn't a surprise.


TFian said:
He didn't say that atheists are never in the military.
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So it's metaphorical yet you questioned my claim that there are metaphorical atheists in foxholes on this forum and that I am one of them.


TFian said:
Just that atheism is VERY rare during trouble times, like societal collapse.
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And this is a claim for which you and he have no source. I dispute it.


TFian said:
It's better if we invest into spirituality because atheism offers us nothing.
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Better? Better how? Please define how it is better and please provide sources.


TFian said:
Uhm, global oil production peaked in 2005, but regardless if it peaks in the future, once it does, industrial civilization is over.
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1. You think production is a purely linear thing? You think there aren't ups and downs in production levels? And apparently you're not convinced it has peaked given how you worded this.
 
TFian said:
Domestic peaks of oil are different than global peaks of oil. It's well accepted the US hit peak oil in the 70s, which is why we've had to import oil since then.
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Accepted by who? The US started importing oil because the higher quality crude found in the middle east is cheaper to refine than the oil found in the US. Once it becomes cheaper to pump and refine local oil then domestic drilling will increase. Plus, there are more than a few replacements for oil that are not used simply because the cost per unit of energy is higher than that of oil. Once these alternatives become advanced enough that they are cheaper than oil then they will become the primary energy source. It's entirely possible that oil demand will fall while there is still plenty of oil remaining.
 
If you're trapped and about to die with no rational way out, superstition is the only thing you have left, so your mind tries it.

I wouldn't hang my religious hopes on that situation.
 
Garrette said:
1. What are Greer's sources for his claims? I dispute them.

2. There are many atheists in foxholes, myself included as well as many others on this very forum.

3. I read your link and find much that is without merit in it, not least of which is the old chestnut of peak oil. Experts and doomsayers have been saying we have either reached or are about to reach in a few years the peak production of oil. What makes Greer right this time.

It's nonsense.
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Yeah as someone who has had the joy of having james randi take his mediocre story about almost dying in a car accident and post it on swift, said story being about this very issue, i can say, nonsense to the Nth degree.

When i thought i was dying i didn't think " Oh i hope god saves me." i thought , " what can i do to not die.". I was in real, legitimate fear of my life, and through a bit of knowlege of how to take impact, and experience in car accidents ( unlucky gent here.) , not prayer, i climbed out of a car accident that should have been fatal ( the paramedics were dumbfounded at the lack of injuries.).
 
TFian said:
I don't have any offhand.



He didn't say that atheists are never in the military. Just that atheism is VERY rare during trouble times, like societal collapse. It's better if we invest into spirituality because atheism offers us nothing.



Uhm, global oil production peaked in 2005, but regardless if it peaks in the future, once it does, industrial civilization is over.
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Your logic astounds me, societies going through bad times have more religious people, so we must strive to be more like collapsing societies.

Your argument would have weight if it was the opposite, that all collapsing societies had high rates of atheism. But it isn't , essentially your just taking a point against you, and flying in the face of all logic.

Collapsing societies don't have much atheism, prisons don't have much atheism, from these two examples, evidence mounts that the more atheism , the better the society.

I see what your trying to wedge in here, that in troubles people turn to religion, but they also turn to alcohol, drugs, crime, among many other crappy things, but i don't think you would be promoting having more drunks, criminals and drug addicts, though it follows the same premise.
 
Though I think I have more appreciation for some of Greer's points and his thinking and writing than most here, I don't see any logic in this at all.

Historical experience shows that people who get in fights often become bruised, scratched, and concussed. So, if someone is expecting a fight he should bruise, scratch, and hit himself in the head in preparation?

Historical experience shows that young people in cities in economic decline turn more to gang activity, vandalism, and violent crime. So if economic decline is anticipated, the city should encourage gang activity, vandalism, and violent crime in preparation?

Historical experience shows that when their girlfriends break up with them, many guys go get drunk. So if a guy thinks his girlfriend is about to break up with him, he should go get drunk in preparation?

Given the acknowledged association between religion and decline, on what basis can you conclude that religion is beneficial? Is there any example of increased spirituality averting or reversing an incipient decline or one already in progress?

And even if spirituality does provide some pallative benefit for individuals suffering from events (like the guy getting drunk because his girlfriend broke up with him), why do it in advance? That's like cursing while hammering a nail, so that you'll be ahead of the game if you hit your thumb.

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
Dragonrock said:
Accepted by who? The US started importing oil because the higher quality crude found in the middle east is cheaper to refine than the oil found in the US. Once it becomes cheaper to pump and refine local oil then domestic drilling will increase. Plus, there are more than a few replacements for oil that are not used simply because the cost per unit of energy is higher than that of oil. Once these alternatives become advanced enough that they are cheaper than oil then they will become the primary energy source. It's entirely possible that oil demand will fall while there is still plenty of oil remaining.
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[Unimpeachable Authority Mode]
Peak oil? Why should I care? Uhm, there are experts in the field who say that natural gas will step in for oil with no problem, supplying America's energy needs for the next three hundred years. Given that fact, there is no need to worry about peak oil.
[\Unimpeachable Authority Mode]

See, TFian? I too can assert that one expert's viewpoint is transparently rock solid so there is no reason to take reasonable counter-arguments seriously. Just for fun, though, and just to keep in the spirit of a forum where you've accumulated over 1,100 posts, would you deign to actually respond with substantive replies to a few counter-arguments?

Here's one of my favorites:

Tfian, there is ample evidence to conclude that your OP describes a "Descent into spirituality during periods of societal collapse". Time and again "desperation spirituality" is used by bad men as a tool to assume dictatorial control over the faithful, initiate brutality and barbarism against those of competing faiths, and to devise harsh repercussions against returning to a more civilized society (which obviously would erode the leadership's base of support). In short, faith can be seen as a symptom of civil collapse, accelerating the descent into barbarism, and delaying the return to a civil and free society.

You can reply to the above arguemt, or pick one of the others - don't care. From that point on we can have something we naively term a discussion, and you can redeem the tone of the vacuous assertions in your posts.
 
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sadhatter said:
Yeah as someone who has had the joy of having james randi take his mediocre story about almost dying in a car accident and post it on swift, said story being about this very issue, i can say, nonsense to the Nth degree.

When i thought i was dying i didn't think " Oh i hope god saves me." i thought , " what can i do to not die.". I was in real, legitimate fear of my life, and through a bit of knowlege of how to take impact, and experience in car accidents ( unlucky gent here.) , not prayer, i climbed out of a car accident that should have been fatal ( the paramedics were dumbfounded at the lack of injuries.).
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I have had many brushes with death myself. I've been ran over by a truck, poisoned, drugged, beat, and rapped, I've survived a fire, a tornado, a flood, multiple hurricanes and a blizzard. Never did God or anything supernatural cross my mind.
 
So now it's another TEOTWAWKI claim? Oil supplies dwindle and society collapses? Guess I better restock the bomb shelter. :rolleyes:
 
Foster Zygote said:
"...There tend to be very few atheists in collapsing civilizations..."

The irony being that this statement can be interpreted as a claim that collapsing civilizations are overrun with spirituality.
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Yes, was the decline and fall of the Roman empire due to Christianity or was it a symptom of that decline?
 
TFian said:
Given this piece of reality, can atheism truly be societal productive, and if not, should we not discourage it's proliferation and encourage a return to spirituality instead?
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I'm going to take a constructive view here, and specify what's required to make this question even worth addressing. Firstly, let's have a definition of "collapsing society"; it doesn't need to be perfect, but it does need to be objective. Next, let's see some demographics in which a representative sample of collapsing societies is demonstrated to contain a greater proportion of atheists than a representative sample of societies in other stages of their development cycle. If those numbers exist, then there's a question to be answered, and we can start addressing the question of whether atheism is a cause of societal collapse, a symptom of it, an insufficiently effective defence against it, or an otherwise irrelevant effect of a common cause that occurs alongside it. Without that information, the question is about as useful and relevant as, for example, the question "Given that people suffering a fever have an excessive amount of blood in their bodies, should we therefore treat the fever by bloodletting?"

Dave
 
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There are no theists in foxholes. You won't find one person in a foxhole praying that the guns disappear. They know it won't happen.

They are taking every possible physical measure to preserve their life.

Theists dial 911 first, pray second.
 
TFian said:
Uhm, global oil production peaked in 2005, but regardless if it peaks in the future, once it does, industrial civilization is over.
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That doesn't follow. Petroleum is not the only possible energy source.
 
As an atheist who has been in a foxhole (Operation Iraqi Freedom, 2008-9), I happily disagree with the person OP quoted, and stand as a single point of data contradicting it.
 
Kahalachan said:
There are no theists in foxholes. You won't find one person in a foxhole praying that the guns disappear. They know it won't happen.

They are taking every possible physical measure to preserve their life.

Theists dial 911 first, pray second.
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Well said and true. There is no prayer survival instinct.
 
Myriad said:
And even if spirituality does provide some pallative benefit for individuals suffering from events (like the guy getting drunk because his girlfriend broke up with him), why do it in advance? That's like cursing while hammering a nail, so that you'll be ahead of the game if you hit your thumb.

Respectfully,
Myriad
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Don't forget reality altering narcotics use also jumps up in breakdowns of economic orders. There's "truly" no sobriety in foxholes either, so let's get ready and get high people!
 
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