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July 4, 1776 - July 4, 2011

How could such brilliant men that crafted such a brilliant document to the world be so stupid as to believe so firmly in God?
Who here has suggested that they were stupid to believe in a god? That is your strawman. The Deists of the enlightenment did not have the information that became available later which showed mechanisms by which complex systems could arise from simpler preceding systems. They assumed, due to normal characteristics of human psychology, that complexity had to be designed by some conscious agency. They didn't believe this because they were stupid, they believed it because it was the best model they could devise based on the information available to them. They were no more stupid than those who once assumed that the passage of time was a universal constant.

"Nature's God.. created.. endowed by their Creator.. appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions.. with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence..."

That's quite an emphasis on God in the founding document from the fathers of the nation.
As has been pointed out previously, the DOI is not a founding document of the United States of America. It was a work of political rhetoric, intended more to rally Colonials to the cause of independence than to persuade the British government of anything. It was an appeal to emotion as well as a means of nullifying the "divine right of kings".

Do you object to this? Would you favor a vote or document which declared a national renouncing of any faith in or reliance on God?
I would prefer an actual legal document like the Constitution of the United States, which makes zero mention of, much less appeal to, any supernatural power, and states in the very first amendment that government is not to involve itself in religion at all.

Would you consider their faith in God, even if you personally disagree, a good thing or a bad thing?
First of all, there are many of them who I would not characterize as having faith in a god at all. To a deist, God was not something that answered prayers or intervened in the lives of humans. Secondly, I would characterize their belief as irrelevant simply because they obviously felt that it was irrelevant, seeing as they chose to leave it out of all consideration when crafting the laws of the United States.

Do you believe that expunging their faith from the nation, as much as reasonably possible, would make for a better nation?
The founders envisioned a nation in which every person was free to worship or not worship according to his or her conscience without threat of harassment by people using the government as a religious cudgel, as had been happening in Europe for so long. Wanting to preserve that separation between church and state is not equivalent to wanting to expunge the nation of religious beliefs. You are just beating on another strawman.

Are Americans better now than they were then?
Define "better". It's certainly true that participation in the governance of the U.S. is no longer limited to white, property owning males. That is certainly a better situation for Americans. It is true that human beings can no longer be owned as property. That is certainly a better situation, would you not agree?
 
TraneWreck. Stop. Read this again.

How could such brilliant men that crafted such a brilliant document to the world be so stupid as to believe so firmly in God?

"Nature's God.. created.. endowed by their Creator.. appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions.. with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence..."

That's quite an emphasis on God in the founding document from the fathers of the nation.

Do you object to this? Would you favor a vote or document which declared a national renouncing of any faith in or reliance on God?

Would you consider their faith in God, even if you personally disagree, a good thing or a bad thing?

Do you believe that expunging their faith from the nation, as much as reasonably possible, would make for a better nation?

TraneWreck,
The Founders deliberately left Christianity out.
I also deliberately left Christianity out.
Why do you keep bringing up Christianity when it's not there and it's not the point?
 
TraneWreck. Stop. Read this again.



TraneWreck,
The Founders deliberately left Christianity out.
I also deliberately left Christianity out.
Why do you keep bringing up Christianity when it's not there and it's not the point?

What god (creator) do you figure the FF were talking about in the one reference in the DoI?
 
Because saying they weren't Christian fundamentalists can be taken to imply that they were non-fundamentalist Christians, whether it was your intent to imply so or not.

You'll have to ask them, but I suspect it has something to do with statements like:

JudeBrando said:
"Constant and immediate need to attempt to deny the founders' Christianity" noted.

This certainly implies that you believe that the founders were Christian. Some of them were, but they did not include any part of their Christianity in the government that they created. Others were certainly deists who did not hold any belief in the divinity of Jesus.
 
Fail.
Your misunderstanding does not dictate my intention.

How could such brilliant men that crafted such a brilliant document to the world be so stupid as to believe so firmly in God?


"Nature's God.. created.. endowed by their Creator.. appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions.. with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence..."

That's quite an emphasis on God in the founding document from the fathers of the nation.

Alright then, so what were you trying to make a point about?
 
Alright then, so what were you trying to make a point about?

It seems to be, "Atheists hate god and religion, therefor they must think that anyone who believes in any god is stupid and incapable of accomplishing anything worthy of praise. But the DOI was written by people who invoked a god, therefor atheists are wrong".

One thing is certain, there is a lot of straw involved.
 
Who here has suggested that they were stupid to believe in a god?
Who said anyone here suggested that? I asked the question.
That is your strawman.
No, as just shown, that was yours.
The Deists of the enlightenment did not have the information that became available later which showed mechanisms by which complex systems could arise from simpler preceding systems. They assumed, due to normal characteristics of human psychology, that complexity had to be designed by some conscious agency. They didn't believe this because they were stupid, they believed it because it was the best model they could devise based on the information available to them. They were no more stupid than those who once assumed that the passage of time was a universal constant.
Thank you for adding your opinion and perspective.

Why does it have to be like pulling teeth?

As has been pointed out previously, the DOI is not a founding document of the United States of America. It was a work of political rhetoric, intended more to rally Colonials to the cause of independence than to persuade the British government of anything. It was an appeal to emotion as well as a means of nullifying the "divine right of kings".
I disagree. You wanna say strictly legally, government, etc... fine, but The Declaration of Birth Certificate counts at the founding of the nation..... NO DISAGREEMENT AND NOT THE POINT......
but since I didn't point that out previously, and to prevent it again.. hopefully...

I would prefer an actual legal document like the Constitution of the United States, which makes zero mention of, much less appeal to, any supernatural power, and states in the very first amendment that government is not to involve itself in religion at all.
I knew it. Legal. Fine... Hey, but did you that owning slaves was perfectly legal?!
The so-called Deist-Theist-not-Christians told you they were going to make a legally secular government.
So you're telling me they were perfectly successful. Great.
NO DISAGREEMENT AND NOT THE POINT.....

First of all, there are many of them who I would not characterize as having faith in a god at all. To a deist, God was not something that answered prayers or intervened in the lives of humans. Secondly, I would characterize their belief as irrelevant simply because they obviously felt that it was irrelevant, seeing as they chose to leave it out of all consideration when crafting the laws of the United States.
Ok. Thank you. I don't have to disagree with you. I don't have to contend with every comment. I don't have to respond to every word, but if I didn't, anything I didn't respond to would be met with "How come you didn't respond to this, huh? Huh?" So I wanted to say this at least once..

The founders envisioned a nation in which every person was free to worship or not worship according to his or her conscience without threat of harassment by people using the government as a religious cudgel, as had been happening in Europe for so long.
Of course. Agreed.
Wanting to preserve that separation between church and state is not equivalent to wanting to expunge the nation of religious beliefs. You are just beating on another strawman.
I didn't say it was. This is another one of YOUR projected strawmen.

Define "better".
Whatever you want. However you want. Whatever you want to say. It's a discussion board. Feel free to discuss. There is no right or wrong answer.
It's certainly true that participation in the governance of the U.S. is no longer limited to white, property owning males. That is certainly a better situation for Americans. It is true that human beings can no longer be owned as property. That is certainly a better situation, would you not agree?
Yes.
 
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I mean this seriously, are you just trolling?

TraneWreck. Stop. Read this again.

TraneWreck,
The Founders deliberately left Christianity out.
I also deliberately left Christianity out.
Why do you keep bringing up Christianity when it's not there and it's not the point?

The constant and immediate need, with some, to attempt to deny the founders' Christianity with a "firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence" of Deist! Deism! is ridiculous. While their specific tenets of faith varied, these were mostly explicitly and overtly religious and Christian men. Some today do not like that and seek to re-write history more to their pleasure.

My reply to that post of yours is how we began discussing Christianity. You brought it up, and then you kept on it:

"Constant and immediate need to attempt to deny the founders' Christianity" noted.

But the important thing is that another of my fabulous predictions came true:

You still haven't dealt with the fact that the contents of our Constitution is 100% devoid of Biblical influence. It's a document that reflects Enlightenment philosophy. You tried to dismiss that point by ignoring it (you've done so again, and will do it after this post as well)

Mr. Randi, Million Dollars, please.
 
The Founders deliberately left Christianity out.
I also deliberately left Christianity out.
Why do you keep bringing up Christianity when it's not there and it's not the point?
So if you deliberately left Christianity out then why did you decide to solely debate those who mentioned Christianity and ignore the replies to your OP that didn't mention Christianity?

That doesn't make a lick of sense.
 
To emphasise this, by post #55 there were 47 replies that did not mention Christianity or Jesus and in post 56:
JudeBrando said:
The constant and immediate need, with some, to attempt to deny the founders' Christianity with a "firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence" of Deist! Deism! is ridiculous. While their specific tenets of faith varied, these were mostly explicitly and overtly religious and Christian men. Some today do not like that and seek to re-write history more to their pleasure.
And then on this page he is asking why they debate is about Christianity!

He even started a thread to further propogate this furphy.
 
Find me a single bit of Biblical influence in the Constitution. Go for it.

I'm curious how far you're going to attenuate the concept of "influence" to make this work.

"Christian" is not biblical. The idea that people living in the eighteenth century could produce anything completely devoid of Christian influence is just absurd. They lived in a society where Christian beliefs pervaded everything.

That they themselves might not have been Christian is not the point. Whatever they did or decided was perforce hugely influenced by the society they lived in. Even nowadays the effects of Christian belief are hugely important even for people who vouchsafe no such belief - and equally, the humanist, secular values of the enlightenment are influential even on people who consider that they gain all their values from their Christian beliefs.

There was no year zero in 1776.
 
So if you deliberately left Christianity out then why did you decide to solely debate those who mentioned Christianity and ignore the replies to your OP that didn't mention Christianity?

That doesn't make a lick of sense.

It makes perfect sense when you consider that he has seemingly lost interest in this thread and is instead posting in his new thread.
 

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