July 4, 1776 - July 4, 2011

[westprog]

Fortunately, none of their ideas require God in order to work.

Inalienable rights? If they don't come from God, where do they come from?

It might be possible to construct a version of the Declaration which is purely materialist in nature, but it would need to come up with a different explanation of where fundamental human rights come from.

That's not to say that the authors of the document were right - just that they didn't approach the issue from an atheistic point of view.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Inalienable rights? If they don't come from God, where do they come from?

Me. You can thank me later.

 

[ddt]

Who said the "US was founded on Christianity?

What is a "Christian nation"?

Have you forgotten what you wrote in the OP?

How could such brilliant men that crafted such a brilliant document to the world be so stupid as to believe so firmly in God?
[...]
That's quite an emphasis on God in the founding document from the fathers of the nation.

Do you object to this? Would you favor a vote or document which declared a national renouncing of any faith in or reliance on God?

Would you consider their faith in God, even if you personally disagree, a good thing or a bad thing?

Do you believe that expunging their faith from the nation, as much as reasonably possible, would make for a better nation?

Baby Jeebus doesn't like it when you deny Him.

 

[steve s]

Inalienable rights? If they don't come from God, where do they come from?

It might be possible to construct a version of the Declaration which is purely materialist in nature, but it would need to come up with a different explanation of where fundamental human rights come from.

That's not to say that the authors of the document were right - just that they didn't approach the issue from an atheistic point of view.

Have you bothered to read this thread? We're saying they were Deists, not atheists.

Steve S

 

[JudeBrando]

Have you forgotten what you wrote in the OP?

No.
Um... hello? Hello!

Baby Jeebus doesn't like it when you deny Him.

Goodbye.

 

[JudeBrando]

We're saying they were Deists, not atheists.

Deists "with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence"...

 

[MatildaGage]

What did they think about women back then, when writing this? I know the word "men" could theoretically mean humans generally, but it didn´t back then, not in a context of political rights.

Women could not vote, make a contract, sue, or own property. They were marginally better than property of their fathers or husbands.

Women did not even have the right to vote in the US until my grandparents' day.


http://www.wic.org/misc/history.htm

 

[Resume]

Deists "with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence"...

What are you on about?

 

[thaiboxerken]

Deists "with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence"...

What about Thomas Paine?

 

[Resume]

Deists "with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence"...

What about Thomas Paine?

What about Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson? Again Jude, what's your point? What god are you on about?

 

[MatildaGage]

Inalienable rights? If they don't come from God, where do they come from

I understand that to mean there are certain universal human rights that should be considered so basic and required that they are innate and irrevocable.

I'm assuming most people don't consider the UN deist.

Whereas recognition of the inherent dignity and of the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world

http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/

 

[Elizabeth I]

Women could not vote, make a contract, sue, or own property. They were marginally better than property of their fathers or husbands.

Women did not even have the right to vote in the US until my grandparents' day.


http://www.wic.org/misc/history.htm

Well, that's an ideal for lots of fundamentalist Christians today.

 

[slingblade]

Inalienable rights? If they don't come from God, where do they come from?

All concepts come only from the human brains that conceive them.

 

[Slimething]

What was YOUR POINT in posting that to me?

Obvious to most semi-literate English-speaking people. Pointing out how pathetic your OP is. That's all. If I were your god, I'd be pretty upset at the representation.

Whatever you do, don't just speak plainly when this can go back and forth unnecessarily much instead...

Read the above..slowly..as many times as needed. No back and forth. Plain as the nose on your face. Deal with it.

It's my discussion as I started it.

Nope. Now it's ours. Go away.

Deists "with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence"...

Funny how they completely gave that up just a few years later. Give it up, boy. You're completely wrong. Learn history. Learn anything!

 

[Slimething]

Inalienable rights? If they don't come from God, where do they come from?

The government.

It might be possible to construct a version of the Declaration which is purely materialist in nature, but it would need to come up with a different explanation of where fundamental human rights come from.

How so? If I am the government and I tell you that you have certain inalienable rights, you will argue with me? What does it matter if I invoke a deity or not?

That's not to say that the authors of the document were right - just that they didn't approach the issue from an atheistic point of view.

See above. How would the inalienable rights be any different?

 

[steve s]

Deists "with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence"...

We've never denied that men like Jefferson and Franklin believed in a deity. They were not Christians, however, as you have attempted to claim. Did you read the quote from Jefferson that I provide in post #10? He's comparing the virgin birth to the Roman myth of Minerva sprouting from the head of Jupiter. Would a Christian deny the divinity of Jesus?

Steve S

 

[bikerdruid]

We've never denied that men like Jefferson and Franklin believed in a deity. They were not Christians, however, as you have attempted to claim. Did you read the quote from Jefferson that I provide in post #10? He's comparing the virgin birth to the Roman myth of Minerva sprouting from the head of Jupiter. Would a Christian deny the divinity of Jesus?

Steve S

the jefferson bible, devoid of miracles and other supernatural elements, should be proof enough that he did not believe in jesus' divinity.

 

[westprog]

Have you bothered to read this thread? We're saying they were Deists, not atheists.

Steve S

Then you agree with me. Fine.

As to whether they were all deists, that's worth a thread of its own. "Not a conventional christian" doesn't necessarily equate to "Deist".

 

[MatildaGage]

Well, that's an ideal for lots of fundamentalist Christians today.

and in yesteryear too - matilda joslyn gage devoted her life to pointing out how the church discouraged women's rights

 

[JamesDillon]

The Declaration of Independence was a piece of political propaganda written to justify an act of treason. Appeal to some authority higher than the British crown is pretty useful for such purposes. When the time came to actually establish the new society created by that rebellion, the founders quite rightly chose to invoke popular sovereignty rather than supernatural authority as the ultimate basis of government. Under the Constitution, the People of the United States are the highest power to which the government answers.