Vaccine/autism CT discussion

[TSR]

"Efforts to conceptualize the history and structure of the universe were already running into trouble because . . . the universe was not as uniform as had been assumed." John Noble Wilford

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And, being a journalist with an advanced degree in political science, JNW is eminently qualified to comment on astrophysics and cosmology.

But let's take a look at the actual article you tried to mine here (apparently your first look).

He is talking about having to change the then-accepted ideas of how our universe came into being because actual observations of that universe called those ideas into doubt.

And the new ideas were based on the scientific method applied to those observations.

You have no observations, and evidently no plan to even come up with a justification to look any further.

To plug this into the "horse":

1: The terms "galaxy", "cluster", "supercluster" "galactic velocity" and "intrinsic luminosity" are all well defined in that discipline, please Google for specifics. These are the term to be specified

2. While working on a way to accurately estimate the intrinsic luminosity of a given galaxy (since the I.L. is tricky to directly observe, while the calculation uses the readily observable galactic velocity instead), it was discovered that while it worked well with individual galaxies, the interactions between clusters and superclusters were far more complex than current theory could explain. Proof of this is the direct observation of the structures involved.

3. Since current theory could not explain these interactions, their cause must have been something not taken into account in the current theory and so were entirely classifiable as "other factors". Now the discussion is what these "other factors" might be

4. *Then* the how matter can mature to how we best test to see which of the four or five refinements (so far) inferred in step 3 best fits the data available.

At no point did astrophysicists decide on non-standard definitions of usual terms to mean that stars are actually turds from extraterrestrial invisible pink unicorns, nor that the interactions observed between these turds are the result of being used in a badminton game between dragons from the 9th dimension.

So, define your terms, demonstrate that these definitions apply in the real world, document their cause, and *then* we have a basis to talk about the effects on unborn children.

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[Jhau]

Clayton, if you're willing to entertain the possibility that the rise in vaccinations over the past few decades have caused a rise in autism, would you also be willing to consider other, possible causes for the increase in autism?

As an example, the age of childbirth in Western societies has increased considerably over the past few decades - which is also the period over which an increase in numbers of autistic children has been observed.

I have no idea whether or not there is a link between those two factors but, given that it is known that increased age of childbirth does lead to an increased risk of various other conditions (Downs Syndrome, for one), in the interests of well-rounded research, perhaps you should be willing to consider other potential factors instead of obsessively concentrating on vaccinations when large numbers of medical studies have shown no evidence whatsoever for the theory that vaccinations cause autism.

 

[excaza]

I have no idea whether or not there is a link between those two factors but, given that it is known that increased age of childbirth does lead to an increased risk of various other conditions (Downs Syndrome, for one), in the interests of well-rounded research, perhaps you should be willing to consider other potential factors instead of obsessively concentrating on vaccinations when large numbers of medical studies have shown no evidence whatsoever for the theory that vaccinations cause autism.

Well said, but unfortunately Clayton is not interested in this.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Can one of the medical experts tell me whether there is any merit at all to this thought?

It seems insane to me. Like saying that my grandfather ate steak and potatoes everyday, so I'm going to be overweight.

Seriously, residue? Huh?

You do realize that the diets of hundreds of generations make individual races more or less susceptible to various health problems don't you?


Why couldn't increasing vaccines generation after generation weaken the species?

What message do the vaccines give to your bodies inner self? The one that dictates you go into shock when seriously injured or directs your left/right brain to take over when one area becomes damaged?

 

[elbe]

You do realize that the diets of hundreds of generations make individual races more or less susceptible to various health problems don't you?


Why couldn't increasing vaccines generation after generation weaken the species?

What message do the vaccines give to your bodies inner self? The one that dictates you go into shock when seriously injured or directs your left/right brain to take over when one area becomes damaged?

But you don't have any evidence of any of that, do you?
I could say that vaccines could cause everyone's skin to fall off, but there's no proof they do so all I'd be doing is making stuff up.

 

[excaza]

Why couldn't increasing vaccines generation after generation weaken the species?

After hundreds of generations, humans will supposedly, due to vaccine residues, become susceptible to certain diseases (even though our immune responses are still being triggered) that don't exist anymore due to vaccines. Do you think at all before you speak?

Besides, I thought we were talking about vaccines causing autism? Or are you giving up on that one?

 

[Clayton Moore]

After hundreds of generations, humans will supposedly, due to vaccine residues, become susceptible to certain diseases (even though our immune responses are still being triggered) that don't exist anymore due to vaccines. Do you think at all before you speak?

Besides, I thought we were talking about vaccines causing autism? Or are you giving up on that one?

Maybe you can answer this. When a woman gets a MMR vaccine as a child
and a MMR booster as a requirement to enter college and another MMR booster because the first MMR booster didn't seem to take, what aspect/degree of the MMR vaccines is passed to her baby?

 

[Clayton Moore]

But you don't have any evidence of any of that, do you?

Go figure. I thought it was common knowledge.

 

[elbe]

Go figure. I thought it was common knowledge.

That you don't have any evidence to support your claims? Yes, I think that is common knowledge.

 

[excaza]

Maybe you can answer this. When a woman gets a MMR vaccine as a child
and a MMR booster as a requirement to enter college and another MMR booster because the first MMR booster didn't seem to take, what aspect/degree of the MMR vaccines is passed to her baby?

Look it up. I'm not your errand boy.

Try some of this newfangled 'research' stuff everyone's been raving about. Then perhaps you can show us how it's relevant.

 

[excaza]

Just to clarify the above:

Clayton, if I believed that you were actually interested in an honest discussion, I would be more inclined to do some preliminary research for you to point you in the right direction. However, since all you've really done is throw **** at the wall in hopes that something sticks, I'm not particularly moved towards charity.

Best of luck in your research, I hope you'll come up with something this time.

 

[tsig]

Maybe you can answer this. When a woman gets a MMR vaccine as a child
and a MMR booster as a requirement to enter college and another MMR booster because the first MMR booster didn't seem to take, what aspect/degree of the MMR vaccines is passed to her baby?

None, it's common knowledge.

 

[carlitos]

Can one of the medical experts tell me whether there is any merit at all to this thought?

How do vaccines given to the parents and grandparents, and great grandparents affect a baby? Is there a residue?

It seems insane to me. Like saying that my grandfather ate steak and potatoes everyday, so I'm going to be overweight.

Seriously, residue? Huh?

I highlighted the relevant portion above. I really am interested in this

You do realize that the diets of hundreds of generations make individual races more or less susceptible to various health problems don't you?


Why couldn't increasing vaccines generation after generation weaken the species?

What message do the vaccines give to your bodies inner self? The one that dictates you go into shock when seriously injured or directs your left/right brain to take over when one area becomes damaged?

Inner self? That's not a medical term I'm familiar with. Care to elaborate?

Also, I think that you are overstating the lateralization of brain function based on popular psychology. Lots of people do this.

None, it's common knowledge.

Thanks.

 

[Travis]

Maybe you can answer this. When a woman gets a MMR vaccine as a child
and a MMR booster as a requirement to enter college and another MMR booster because the first MMR booster didn't seem to take, what aspect/degree of the MMR vaccines is passed to her baby?

And if some did.................so what? Until there is any evidence that vaccines can "weaken" someone this is all just nonsense.

 

[AmandaM]

I just saw this:

http://www.thinktwice.com/secret.htm

Which talks about the "secret" vaccine database, and then proceeds to give the hyperlink.

I love how a secret database is available on the internetz.

I especially love this paragraph from the above site:

Satanic Rituals:

Others see a link between vaccinations and satanic rituals or witchcraft, where animals are sacrificed and their organs brewed in a hellish concoction of horrid substances: voodoo medicine by 21st century mad scientists. Sadly, our children are their unwilling subjects as society is slowly devoured by their insatiable appetite for human experimentation


Hail Satan and bring on the goat's blood and the MMR.

 

[catsmate]

I just saw this:

http://www.thinktwice.com/secret.htm

Which talks about the "secret" vaccine database, and then proceeds to give the hyperlink.

I love how a secret database is available on the internetz.

I especially love this paragraph from the above site:

Satanic Rituals:

Others see a link between vaccinations and satanic rituals or witchcraft, where animals are sacrificed and their organs brewed in a hellish concoction of horrid substances: voodoo medicine by 21st century mad scientists. Sadly, our children are their unwilling subjects as society is slowly devoured by their insatiable appetite for human experimentation


Hail Satan and bring on the goat's blood and the MMR.

Well if Andrew Wakefield had his way that might be in vaccines. There's a thread here about his experiments.

 

[Clayton Moore]

http://www.citizensreport.org/2011/09/04/autism-isn’t-linked-to-childhood-vaccines/

Autism Isn’t Linked to Childhood Vaccines

Posted on September 4, 2011 in Health & Medicine, Parenting, Recent Studies

A review from the Institute of Medicine sends one message loud and clear: childhood vaccines do not cause autism. The independent panel looked at eight different childhood vaccines, and found that they may cause several other adverse effects, however.

Two live vaccines—one against measles, mumps and rubella and one against chickenpox — were found to be responsible for most of the serious side effects. The committee found clear evidence that the MMR can cause fever-related seizures, which usually cause no long-term harm. The MMR also can cause brain inflammation in people with immune system problems.

The varicella vaccine was also found to cause health problems, including pneumonia, brain swelling, and shingles. Six vaccines were listed as sometimes causing anaphylaxis, a potentially life-threatening allergic reaction: MMR, varicella, influenza, hepatitis B, meningococcal, and tetanus.

Disproving a link between vaccines and autism is nearly impossible, the researchers responsible for the review said. But recent studies show strong evidence that there’s not an autism risk. Although scientists haven’t pinpointed the causes of autism, genetic and environmental factors are involved.

Are you concerned about childhood vaccines?

people with immune system problems.


Why do they say people? Shouldn't they say babies? Shouldn't it be obvious babies would have immature immune systems? Is immature really the same as "people with immune system problems."

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7118898&postcount=7

Quote:
How are vaccines evaluated for safety?

A review of some Prevnar studies on InsideVaccines

*All data herein is from the manufacturer’s package inserts.

**All studies listed excluded children who weren’t healthy–roughly 60% of the general population of infants and children would not be accepted into a vaccine study.

 

[TSR]

http://www.citizensreport.org/2011/09/04/autism-isn’t-linked-to-childhood-vaccines/


people with immune system problems.

Why do they say people? Shouldn't they say babies?

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I'm afraid you'll have to ask whomever wrote that blog post, since the report itself (released in 2004) is clear that it is discussing children.

Once again, your habit of taking at face value what other people say that something says rather than looking at it yourself, even though the original is trivially easy to locate, has bitten you in the ass.
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Shouldn't it be obvious babies would have immature immune systems? Is immature really the same as "people with immune system problems."

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Yes, it is obvious.

No, "immature immune system" does not mean "immune system problem".

Why don't you come back when you have actually read the report in question? If you have additional things you have been told about it that are not what it says, as above, I suggest you ask why that blog author would post such a misleading entry.
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[Giordano]

CM,

You are back here knocking vaccines because a new study indicates that they are safer than the diseases they protect against and they don't cause autism??

As TSR states, babies do not have immune system "problems." What they have are "immature" or "naive" immune systems, which means "not-yet-programmed" immune systems. As was detailed earlier in this thread, it's by exposure to antigens (vaccination, or far less preferable, by exposure to the disease itself) that immature immune systems are programmed to protect against pathogens later. Programming an immature immune systems is a good thing! Virtually every person on this planet will encounter a measles virus antigen at some point in their life: I would rather they see it first as part of a non-infectious, carefully tested vaccine made from purified protein subunits, rather than attached to a virulent measles virus.

 

[TSR]

You are back here knocking vaccines because a new study indicates that they are safer than the diseases they protect against and they don't cause autism??

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And it's not even a "new" study -- it's seven years old.

CM, the tireless crusader for the kids, waited until someone spoon fed zie an inaccurate summary which zie took as Gospel because it allowed zie to pick just one more nit, too ignorant to realize zir beef was with the summary not the actual report.
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