Vaccine/autism CT discussion

[Scott Sommers]

When you have a suspect, a commonality, it remains to be determined, HOW?

I think the MMR boosters, given to young women to ensure immunity to rubella, is a solid lead.

I'm still trying to figure out how you "know" all this. It's not the log odds tests that medical researchers use because those tell us this isn't the cause. You called this "basic intelligence". So what is this thing? You don't need to know anything about how the human body works or how research is done. What do you need to know to have this?

 

[Clayton Moore]

I'm still trying to figure out how you "know" all this. It's not the log odds tests that medical researchers use because those tell us this isn't the cause. You called this "basic intelligence". So what is this thing? You don't need to know anything about how the human body works or how research is done. What do you need to know to have this?

So if i don't reach your threshold of medical knowledge I can't have a credible opinion?

Seems to me you're dwelling on this and avoiding discussing the MMR boosters.

 

[Tomblvd]

So if i don't reach your threshold of medical knowledge I can't have a credible opinion?

It is possible, but, given your butchering of the studies you've posted as "proof", and general misunderstanding of vaccines and immunity (among other issues), it is highly improbable.

Seems to me you're dwelling on this and avoiding discussing the MMR boosters.

Perhaps if you were to give us something to discuss that actually had to do with the issue at hand....

 

[TSR]

So if i don't reach your threshold of medical knowledge I can't have a credible opinion?

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Yeah, that's pretty much it. The threshold is actually not that high, but you have shown a singular to even attempt to meet it.

Let's put it this way: my six year old is reading at a high third grade level. Zie is currently fascinated with all things automotive, encouraged by zir new uncle who owns a motorcycle repair / machine shop and my father who was souping up every vehicle he could get his hands on since high school.

I'm still going to go to one of two older gentlemen for advice should I be rebuilding a carb or working with a computer controlled injection system. Couple of years, should zir interest continue and zie will probably be supervised in building a go-cart from the ground up, thereby gaining the knowledge zie cannot get from standing behind the line in the shop (more precisely, sitting on the second from the top rung of a ladder so zie can see some of what Unka J is doing), reading every issue of "Road and Track" since the early fifties (Pop is kinda a pack rat) and having access to Google. Even *zie* knows better than to try and cite the kid down the block who tells him storks bring catalytic converters and tries to prove it with a random document in Urdu.

And zie knows better than to expect everyone to just take zir word for it that Unka J doesn't know the difference between Imperial and Metric wrenches unless zie can actually *document* that statement.

Medical research is orders of magnitude more complex than this, and you actively resist being educated in why that is.
.

Seems to me you're dwelling on this and avoiding discussing the MMR boosters.

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Seems to me (and pretty much everyone else here) that you're running from the questions I've asked about your cited "study":

Where is the data used in compiling it?
What safeguards does the methodology have to minimize confirmation bias?
Do you even know what confirmation bias *is*?
How have factors other than the one being tested for been minimized?
.

 

[excaza]

Seems to me (and pretty much everyone else here) that you're running from the questions I've asked about your cited "study":

Where is the data used in compiling it?
What safeguards does the methodology have to minimize confirmation bias?
Do you even know what confirmation bias *is*?
How have factors other than the one being tested for been minimized?

Sorry, but the control group for the study only included healthy children, and should therefore be ignored.

 

[Arisia]

AmandaM deliberately lied?

Of course not. She sleep posted.

Oh, so we're all either Big Pharma shills or sleep posting (or maybe both) if we don't agree with you? What about all the scientists who have actually proven there's no link between vaccines and ASD?



eta: Actually CM, how do you manage your time, being both an anti-vaxxer and a Holocaust denier (at the very least, I haven't spent as much time in other CT threads)?

 

[aggle-rithm]

So if i don't reach your threshold of medical knowledge I can't have a credible opinion?

I think most of us here have concluded that you can't have a credible opinion because none of the opinions you have expressed have been credible, medical knowledge notwithstanding.

 

[AmandaM]

Oh, so we're all either Big Pharma shills or sleep posting (or maybe both) if we don't agree with you?

I'm actually both. And a bot, to boot.

The capacity for the human mind to delude itself is astounding, especially during periods of grief. I respectfully suggest that Clayton doesn't know squat how about a young mother's mind works, and rather than wasting his time calling me a liar or spouting anti-vax nonsense, he spend some actual face time with these families, so he can see how the kinds of fears and paranoia that develop BECAUSE of this anti-science nonsense.

 

[ElMondoHummus]

After asking our friend Clayton to explain the analysis he uses to reach his conclusions, I can not understand why you would think these facts are relevant...

I cannot understand why you think the posts was aimed at furthering discussion with Clayton himself. I've said before more than once that, once I've written off a woo peddler, my posts are aimed at lurkers as well as others who may not be up to speed on this topic. He's not the only one reading these responses.

As far as CM himself? Forget it. It's sufficent to demonstrate to those lurkers where and how he's wrong.

In fact, Clayton's techniques of discovery appear to me quite similar to others health crusaders or even conspiracy theorists. The physics or chemistry or the mathematics are not nearly as important as what Clayton terms "basic intelligence". By this, he seems to mean something completely unrelated to your knowledge of anything. It appears to be something that even illiterate people, even pre-modern people can have. I'd like to know more about what this is and how it differs from superstition.

Ok, fine. In my case, I don't care how the cognitive pathology develops, I only care about juxtaposing proper information with the pseudoscience for the rational people out there.

 

[Bob001]

I have no doubt that vaccinations are a good thing, and when I have a chance to travel outside the U.S. I go to a travel clinic and get all the shots the CDC recommends. But the vaccine opponents have raised one question that I haven't seen persuasively answered. Vaccines and other medications are tested largely in isolation to determine whether they are safe and effective. But babies receive numerous vaccines at the same time, sometimes as many as six or seven at one doctor visit, starting literally at birth. Is it possible that multiple shots, each with its own impact on immature nervous and immune systems, could have cumulative effects that have not been tested for? Do other countries vaccinate their babies on different schedules? If so, with what results?

CDC childhood vaccination schedule:
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/recs/schedules/downloads/child/0-6yrs-schedule-pr.pdf

 

[excaza]

Is it possible that multiple shots, each with its own impact on immature nervous and immune systems, could have cumulative effects that have not been tested for?

What impacts are these?

 

[abaddon]

I had abaddon#1 and abaddon#2 vaccinated at the height of an autism scare here over MMR. No problems, nor any sight or sound of other kids with problems.
(well besides the obvious, kids don't like needles)

Shortly after there was a measles mini-epidemic. Boy, was I glad. I knew someone as a kid who was partially blinded as a result of measles.

 

[Bob001]

What impacts are these?

Perhaps I should have said "alleged" impacts. But at an absolute minimum, each vaccine causes the body to produce antibodies to the disease it protects against. Is there a way that producing antibodies against multiple serious diseases at the same time could cause negative consequences? I'm not making the argument, I'm asking the question. If the answer has been determined to be "no," I am reassured.

 

[excaza]

Is there a way that producing antibodies against multiple serious diseases at the same time could cause negative consequences? I'm not making the argument, I'm asking the question. If the answer has been determined to be "no," I am reassured.

Well, sure, but you're exposed to more in the course of your daily life than you ever will from getting a vaccine.

Unless you live in a bubble. And even then...

 

[Clayton Moore]

Perhaps I should have said "alleged" impacts. But at an absolute minimum, each vaccine causes the body to produce antibodies to the disease it protects against. Is there a way that producing antibodies against multiple serious diseases at the same time could cause negative consequences? I'm not making the argument, I'm asking the question. If the answer has been determined to be "no," I am reassured.

The complexity of the human mechanism precludes exclusion of almost any negative consequence. Add to that the complexities and the variances and the commonalities of the human experience it would be unscientific to say no.

One aspect that seems to be overlooked here is how the human mechanism fends for itself. An old adage, too much of a good thing thing is not always a good thing must be considered.

Instead of dismissing possible negative effects of vaccine's "what ifs" there should be a running dialog.

For instance "what if" How do vaccines given to the parents and grandparents, and great grandparents affect a baby? Is there a residue? Is there a genetic improvement or a possible genetic degradation? What could happen when a new vaccine meets a small/medium/large amount of residue? A new type of residue?

Is there a vaccine generation chain?

 

[carlitos]

Can one of the medical experts tell me whether there is any merit at all to this thought?

How do vaccines given to the parents and grandparents, and great grandparents affect a baby? Is there a residue?

It seems insane to me. Like saying that my grandfather ate steak and potatoes everyday, so I'm going to be overweight.

Seriously, residue? Huh?

 

[TSR]

For instance "what if" How do vaccines given to the parents and grandparents, and great grandparents affect a baby? Is there a residue? Is there a genetic improvement or a possible genetic degradation? What could happen when a new vaccine meets a small/medium/large amount of residue? A new type of residue?

Is there a vaccine generation chain?

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Cart before the horse again.

First, one would have to define what one means when one says "residue" or "degradation" in this context (with it understood that this definition would need to cover *only* undesirable residues or degradations, along with a explanation of both why they are undesirable and prevalent enough to outweigh the known benefits of vaccines).

Be specific. We'll wait right here.

*Then* one would have to prove that such a residue / degradation exists in the general population.

How do you plan to go about that?

*Then* one would have to prove what caused the residue / degradation was a side effect of vaccinations significantly more often than as an effect / side effect of any other factors.

How do you plan to go about that?

Only then does it become worthwhile to discuss the transmission / heritability of such a residue / degradation and how to isolate those other factors mentioned from being the primary cause thereof.
.

 

[Clayton Moore]

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Cart before the horse again.

First, one would have to define what one means when one says "residue" or "degradation" in this context (with it understood that this definition would need to cover *only* undesirable residues or degradations, along with a explanation of both why they are undesirable and prevalent enough to outweigh the known benefits of vaccines).

Be specific. We'll wait right here.

*Then* one would have to prove that such a residue / degradation exists in the general population.

How do you plan to go about that?

*Then* one would have to prove what caused the residue / degradation was a side effect of vaccinations significantly more often than as an effect / side effect of any other factors.

How do you plan to go about that?

Only then does it become worthwhile to discuss the transmission / heritability of such a residue / degradation and how to isolate those other factors mentioned from being the primary cause thereof.
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Do you know what an idea is? Or a conceptualization?

"Efforts to conceptualize the history and structure of the universe were already running into trouble because . . . the universe was not as uniform as had been assumed." John Noble Wilford

 

[beren]

Do you know what an idea is? Or a conceptualization?

I don't. Please enlighten me.

 

[Travis]

I have an idea that a conceptualization of this thread would look like a canvas a blind monkey was throwing paint and bodily waste at while riding on the back of a dune buggy.

It's messy. It's meaningless. It's somewhat depressing. And we'd rather it just never happened at all.