Merged Cold Fusion Claims

[Christian Klippel]

What's that CE issue all about? I think some people here have a gross misconception how CE approval is actually done. No government or (governmental) authority does any tests at all there. Such testing is done by third party companies, or even single persons. The DUT is sent in to that company/person, together with a complete list of specifications about it. Then it will be measured/tested to verify that it is inside these specifications, which also must be inside the specs required by CE. Once that is done the manufacturer can slap a CE sign on the unit and be done with it.

No "authority" involved at all. In fact, the whole testing by a third party is completely optional. You can assign a CE yourself. It just gets bad if the device causes problems and is found out to not adhere to the spec-limits as imposed by CE. That's the main reason why manufacturers have third parties do a CE conformity testing: So that there is someone they can point the finger at in case something goes wrong. With respect to the final customer, it is always the manufacturer who issues the "CE conformity declaration" ("CE Konformitätserklärung" in German). How the manufacturer got to that point is usually never told. It's rather uncommon to see such a conformity declaration that mentions the lab that did the testing.

I have quite a bunch of such CE testing reports at hand, in case anyone is interested to see the "meat" of such a thing. For example, for some radio manufactured in China: It has a CE sticker. There is a guy in Germany who certifies the CE, who got a unique registration number (I'm talking about the guy, not the radio). However, that guy did not do the actual CE testing. That was in fact done by another company in China. All he does is to give his name, and in turn trust that the actual test report is accurate. Just a pile of paperwork, nothing else.

In short: A CE mark does say exactly nothing at all besides that the manufacturer claims that the device conforms with the requirements for such a mark. That it really does, that that was verified and if so, by whom, can only be speculated.

Greetings,

Chris

 

[Crawdaddy]

Out of the CE standards, Hyperion products (kW or MW range) have to pass all tests described the the Greek and EU lows according to their industrial code classification.
The Authorities responsible to test and certify are
-The Ministry of Regional Development and Industry
-The Ministry of Environment and Energy
through their appointed by low labs.

If you can read greek, we can send to you all relevant legislation for your info.
Thank you for your question

This is a quote from the Defkalion website. These tests are supposedly to be completed by the middle of July.

Only a few more days to find out what they actually meant by this statement.

 

[Horatius]

You are assuming that the tests will not actually test anything related to the device function. I am assuming that they will.

And on what, exactly , are you basing that assumption? I linked directly to the sites that deal with what CE certification deals with, and the only things they talked about were safety and environmental issues.

Can you show anywhere that any CE certifications were based on operational tests that established that a product performed the function that the manufacturer claimed it performed?

 

[BenBurch]

CE rating is like UL rating, more-or-less.

It says that the device is not dangerous when operated, not that it actually does what it was supposed to do.

 

[Horatius]

This is a quote from the Defkalion website. These tests are supposedly to be completed by the middle of July.

Only a few more days to find out what they actually meant by this statement.

Do you really think they'll say anything other than, "They confirmed we meet the CE requirements!"?

 

[Crawdaddy]

Horatius

And on what, exactly , are you basing that assumption? I linked directly to the sites that deal with what CE certification deals with, and the only things they talked about were safety and environmental issues.

Can you show anywhere that any CE certifications were based on operational tests that established that a product performed the function that the manufacturer claimed it performed?

I am basing the assumption on the idea that no country would allow anyone to sell a device like the e-cat without thorough testing. If the device does what it claims it does then I assume there are large numbers of regulations that govern its sale.

Do you think that if this device was for sale in Canada that it would be certified for sale without being tested in operation? If the device purports to put out 30kW then it follows that its performance envelope will be tested.

Do you imagine that there are no laws specific to greece that regulate this type of thing?

Do you really think they'll say anything other than, "They confirmed we meet the CE requirements!"?

If that is the extent of the information they release it will certainly not enhance the probability of the e-cats legitimacy. So far the information released by defkalion is pretty good. I was impressed by their disclosures about the working fluids of their reactors and the methods they use for reactor control. It shows they actually know what they are talking about.

 

[Christian Klippel]

CE rating is like UL rating, more-or-less.

It says that the device is not dangerous when operated, not that it actually does what it was supposed to do.

While it is true that it does not say that something works or not, it still is a bit more than just about safety. But all that depends on the class of the product itself, obviously. To pick up on my radio example above, in case of a radio it is also meant to "make sure" that it does not produce/emits unwanted harmonics above a certain level, that a few certain limits are obeyed, etc.

It's a bit more that just safety, but then, as mentioned, it's not really tested/issued by a government agency/authority or the like either. All it says is that the manufacturer claims (!) that the device operates within it's legal limits as per European regulations. But no one really checks that as long as no bad side-effects happen.

So, in the case of the e-Cat it may be very well just a CE for something like a regular, electric water heater like this one (German WP article). Nothing fancy at all. After all, it contains a heater and claims to produce hot water or steam. So that would (in my guess) the category/class it could be "certified" for, and everyone would be happy.

Greetings,

Chris

 

[temporalillusion]

Do you think that if this device was for sale in Canada that it would be certified for sale without being tested in operation?

http://www.powerbalance.com/

Lots of stuff gets sold that doesn't do what it purports to do. They get around that with fancy legal language.

"This device may generate 30kW"

 

[ben m]

I am basing the assumption on the idea that no country would allow anyone to sell a device like the e-cat without thorough testing. If the device does what it claims it does then I assume there are large numbers of regulations that govern its sale.

That idea is nonsense.

Government certification is for safety standards. This device will not electrocute you if you pick it up. It won't emit radio waves that would require an FCC license. For special categories (toys, cars, drugs) there are additional safety regulations. But that's it.

The only time the government asks whether the device works is if someone sues the maker for fraud.

Do you think that if this device was for sale in Canada that it would be certified for sale without being tested in operation? If the device purports to put out 30kW then it follows that its performance envelope will be tested.

No. It so happens that I've gotten a device tested by Ontario product safety authorities, and that test consisted entirely of checking that there were no lethal voltages accessible from the outside the case. Much of this was done by poking at cracks in the case with a screwdriver.

Do you imagine that there are no laws specific to greece that regulate this type of thing?

What makes you think there are? Everything you've said so far is a bare assumption that you figure there ought to be. You're wrong.

 

[Horatius]

I am basing the assumption on the idea that no country would allow anyone to sell a device like the e-cat without thorough testing. If the device does what it claims it does then I assume there are large numbers of regulations that govern its sale.

So then, why are they trumpeting the fact that they meet the requirements for CE testing, which is related solely to health and safety, instead of telling us about all these other supposed tests you think they'll be required to pass?


This is like someone claiming to be the greatest athlete in the world based on what his body fat percentage is. The one standard has nothing to do with the other, it's a pure non sequitur.

 

[Christian Klippel]

So then, why are they trumpeting the fact that they meet the requirements for CE testing, which is related solely to health and safety, instead of telling us about all these other supposed tests you think they'll be required to pass?


This is like someone claiming to be the greatest athlete in the world based on what his body fat percentage is. The one standard has nothing to do with the other, it's a pure non sequitur.

That's easy to answer: because it fools the gullible into believing that there is something real. While real testing would quickly reveal that it is just an illusion.

There have been bigger scams, with bigger networks of allegedly "reputable" companies and people involved, just to make it look good. The better it looks, the easier it is to get people to invest in it.

Frankly, i would not be surprised to learn some day that Defkalion is just a facade, created by Rossi or people close to him, set up to fool people. It's easy and cheap to open up a company with a fancy name. Especially if all people involved are in Europe.

Greetings,

Chris

 

[Crawdaddy]

Ben M

What makes you think there are? Everything you've said so far is a bare assumption that you figure there ought to be. You're wrong.

I think that the statements made by defkalion imply more extensive testing and that is what I base my assumption on.

I may be wrong.

Just to be clear: you assert that a device which is purported to function by nuclear fusion, put out 30kW of heat and requires lead shielding to protect from high energy ionizing radiation in the 100's of keV range would be certified for sale after being poked with a screwdriver...

As my previous post clarified. The most interesting aspect of the defkalion statement is that it is very strong evidence that they are not unwitting participants in this endeavor and now must be counted among the con men. The number of crooks needed to explain the device as a fraud continues to grow.

 

[Crawdaddy]

Horatius

I don't think they are trumpeting the CE certification.

What they have said is:

A big number of in house lab prototype e-cat tests have been succesfully concluded by Defkalion GT during the previous months. As far as we know, there are no any more third party public testing or demos scheduled on lab prototype e-cats (similar to Kullander or other) till November.

At the moment there are no other third party testing on Hyperion Products other than the ones in progress by the Greek Authorities.
Results of these official tests on performance, stability, functionality and safety will be released following the issuing of the final Certificates by the Greek Authorities

Any other scheduled before end of Octomber third-party-tests on Hyperion products and their results (including data, protocols etc) will be announced and published through DGT official site .

They explicitly state that performance tests will be done by greek authorities and that those results will be released. You are the one focusing on the CE testing.

 

[Aepervius]

This is a quote from the Defkalion website. These tests are supposedly to be completed by the middle of July.

Only a few more days to find out what they actually meant by this statement.

The only energy or calorimetric test which will be done , are from U bologna *and* they (rossi) have already said they will start AFTER october.

But then again ROssi/Defkalion and co are quite adept (like other like Steorn like blacklight) to turn the word as to make believer read whatever they want to read.

 

[Aepervius]

Horatius



I am basing the assumption on the idea that no country would allow anyone to sell a device like the e-cat without thorough testing. If the device does what it claims it does then I assume there are large numbers of regulations that govern its sale.

Do you think that if this device was for sale in Canada that it would be certified for sale without being tested in operation? If the device purports to put out 30kW then it follows that its performance envelope will be tested.

Do you imagine that there are no laws specific to greece that regulate this type of thing?



If that is the extent of the information they release it will certainly not enhance the probability of the e-cats legitimacy. So far the information released by defkalion is pretty good. I was impressed by their disclosures about the working fluids of their reactors and the methods they use for reactor control. It shows they actually know what they are talking about.

That is a misconception. Such device, and many more dangerous are usually not "requiring" an authorisation and test by governement (and on face value seeing the number of item generated every year in eurpe, good luck testing everything), but a complaint will make the authority have a look. A good example of that is SNIFFEX. There was no authority to OK the sale, but once complaint were made, it was looked at, and taken down.

As for their info, if you call that good, well you really read much more into it than what really is.

 

[catsmate]

Craig B

It is true that the greek authorities are not necessarily lying if as people here claim that they will grant CE certification and not verify the device is actually operating as Defkalion claims.

Rubbish. As you've already been told the CE Mark does not indicate Rossi's magic heater actually does anything, merely that it complies with certain EU directives (listed here). In fact examination of the marked device isn't even necessarily done by any government body (except for certain categories into which Rossi's alleged device does not fall);

...the assessment of the conformity of the products with the legislative requirements applying to them is the sole responsibility of the manufacturer.

[excerpted from the EU Commission's Enterprise and Industry FAQ regarding the CE mark]

The assumption that the device will not actually be tested is not well founded, and it remains to be seen if this is a valid premise.

As I've stated you are wrong about this.

The Defkalion people also mention the use of liquid salt at over 400C. This technology is already in use in many industries including in active thermal solar power for electricity generation at good carnot efficiency.

The use of glycol in these reactors is of importance because it eliminates questions arising from phase changes (such as the wet/dry steam uncertainties). Glycol as a cooling loop fluid is extremely common.

This still doesn't mean Rossi's magic machine actually works. Why no proper supervised tests?

What have Rossi and associates got to hide?

 

[Aepervius]

Horatius

I don't think they are trumpeting the CE certification.

What they have said is:




They explicitly state that performance tests will be done by greek authorities and that those results will be released. You are the one focusing on the CE testing.

They have said a lot of things, including, and I am NOT kidding you, to include a GSM "call home" device in each eCat , and a SELF DESTRUCT system.

You are reading much more into it than what is. The bottom line is that the only "performace" test which is touted by defkalion DGT is the one from university Bologna. The greek one is a CE one only.

 

[catsmate]

Horatius

I am basing the assumption on the idea that no country would allow anyone to sell a device like the e-cat without thorough testing. If the device does what it claims it does then I assume there are large numbers of regulations that govern its sale.

Really? Lots of devices and substances are sold that don't actually do anything, homeopathic 'remedies' and most 'health foods' for example. All the sellers have to do is comply with the relevant safety legislation.

Do you think that if this device was for sale in Canada that it would be certified for sale without being tested in operation? If the device purports to put out 30kW then it follows that its performance envelope will be tested.

Do you imagine that there are no laws specific to greece that regulate this type of thing?



If that is the extent of the information they release it will certainly not enhance the probability of the e-cats legitimacy. So far the information released by defkalion is pretty good. I was impressed by their disclosures about the working fluids of their reactors and the methods they use for reactor control. It shows they actually know what they are talking about.

And I'm sure Rossi is very worried about been sued under notoriously weak consumer protection laws when his magic machines fail to work.
That's assuming he actually builds any to sell.

But then you've already been told this.

 

[Crawdaddy]

Aepervius

The greek one is a CE one only.

What evidence do you have to justify this statement?

 

[Horatius]

Horatius

I don't think they are trumpeting the CE certification.

What they have said is:




They explicitly state that performance tests will be done by greek authorities and that those results will be released. You are the one focusing on the CE testing.

And like any True Believer, you're ignoring the fact that, when asked to clarify "Can you tell us what you mean by “the Greek Authorities”?", they only made reference to the CE standards, as reported in this post:

Some interesting data about testing on the Defkalion forum, apparently there will be a few Greek agencies that will test the E-Cat system during the first ten days in July, and Defkalion will publish the findings on their site. It's not clear how independent the testing will be:

http://coldfusionnow.wordpress.com/2011/06/24/defkalion-internal-tests/
http://www.defkalion-energy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=43

A big number of in house lab prototype e-cat tests have been succesfully concluded by Defkalion GT during the previous months. As far as we know, there are no any more third party testing or demos scheduled on lab prototype e-cats (similar to Kullander or other) till November.

At the moment there are no other third party testing on Hyperion Products other than the ones in progress by the Greek Authorities.
Results of these official tests on performance, stability, functionality and safety will be released following the issuing of the final Certificates by the Greek Authorities

Any other scheduled before end of October third-party-tests on Hyperion products and their results (including data, protocols etc) will be announced and published through DGT official site.

They also note here what Greek Agencies will be doing the testing: http://ecatnews.com/?p=246

Out of the CE standards, Hyperion products (kW or MW range) have to pass all tests described the Greek and EU lows according to their industrial code classification.
The Authorities responsible to test and certify are
-The Ministry of Regional Development and Industry
-The Ministry of Environment and Energy
through their appointed by low labs.

If you can read greek, we can send to you all relevant legislation for your info.
Thank you for your question

Here they had a perfect opportunity to clarify the issue of what tests the "Greek Authorities" were doing on their devices, and yet, all they mention are the CE standards.