Merged Cold Fusion Claims

[Aepervius]

Aepervius



What evidence do you have to justify this statement?

Tons of discussion and statement from defkalion themselves on their own forums. They never push there the greek test as a test of the device producing energy.

ETA horatius beat me to it. Darn.

 

[Crawdaddy]

Aepervius

They have said a lot of things, including, and I am NOT kidding you, to include a GSM "call home" device in each eCat , and a SELF DESTRUCT system.

It is not inconceivable that each e-cat will have network capability.

Since you are not familiar with high surface energy metal nanoparticles in a reduced atmosphere, you will have to trust me when I tell you that simply venting the hydrogen from the reactor would likely be enough to materially alter the powders inside the device to an extent where they could not be reverse engineered.

The SELF-DESTRUCT capability could be as simple as that...

Some microchips have self destruct capability that is simply induced by regular room lights.

You probably imagine some sort of explosive when you hear self-destruct but that is a simplistic assumption based on inexperience.

Regardless.

While I am sure you are having fun trying to tell me I am full of it, I am sure we can both agree that Rossi must be acting in concert with Defkalion to perpetrate any fraud. Which is the take home message I meant to convey in my original post.

 

[Christian Klippel]

Horatius

I don't think they are trumpeting the CE certification.

What they have said is:

A big number of in house lab prototype e-cat tests have been succesfully concluded by Defkalion GT during the previous months. As far as we know, there are no any more third party public testing or demos scheduled on lab prototype e-cats (similar to Kullander or other) till November.

At the moment there are no other third party testing on Hyperion Products other than the ones in progress by the Greek Authorities.
Results of these official tests on performance, stability, functionality and safety will be released following the issuing of the final Certificates by the Greek Authorities

Any other scheduled before end of Octomber third-party-tests on Hyperion products and their results (including data, protocols etc) will be announced and published through DGT official site .

They explicitly state that performance tests will be done by greek authorities and that those results will be released. You are the one focusing on the CE testing.

Well, they say that they will release results of such testing after the certificates are issued. It's quite some ambiguity in their language. One might say "carefully crafted to confuse the people".

Doesn't it already raise a red flag for you that they use "Hyperion" as a name in conjunction with their "cold fusion reactor", given the fact that these guys are actually a legit company, using the Hyperion name already, working on a real reactor?

And who is Defkalion anyways? No one knows about them or has heard about them before the Rossi spectacle. Speaking of Rossi, did you notice that he also had some company called "Eon" (or was involved in one), while (again) there is already a very legit company in the energy sector using that name?

How comes that all this Rossi crap is connected to misleadingly named companies, that by some strange coincidence are also involved in energy generation/distribution?

See, i can spend a few (really, it's only a few) bucks and open up a LLC in a few days. Then i can start and churn out press releases and stuff, talking about what wonderful stuff i have created and tested. There is absolutely nothing complicated about that, everyone can do that.

The only thing that could give this whole affair some credibility is third party testing and replication by third parties, and not only by one, but by several. Doesn't Rossi claim to have hundreds of these eCat's in operation already? Should be easy to send a few of them to high profile lab's to get real results.

But for some (not-so-) strange reason that is exactly what he avoids at all costs. The only thing thing that could have any meaning at all is avoided by him. Instead all we have is anecdotes from him and his companions, and some very suspect "companies" that no one has ever heard of before and which use names already used by legit companies in the energy field.

And we should really take their word for it? Come on, you can't be serious with that. This whole setup screams scam all over. Especially given the fact that Rossi is no newcomer in the arena of scams and frauds.

Greetings,

Chris

 

[Crawdaddy]

Horatius

They also say

Safety test in progress by the Greek Authorities include procedures and scenarios (for all ranges of products) on:
-Stress tests
-Operational and safety test in not normal conditions (fire, earthquake etc). Please note that Greece is a country with earthquakes and very high safety standards because of the earthquakes
-EU regulation SEVESO II related tests (hydrogen storage and handling)
-Tests on critical components failure
-All tests for radiations etc, according to EU standards
-Safety/Stability tests
-Other safety related tests

All tests protocols and results will be released and published in Defkalion's site with the Certificates from the Greek Authorities before any releasing of products in Greece.

Thank you for your remarks

PS E-cat lab prototype shielding is 3 mm thick. Your toaster may produce more radiation than an e-cat .

Stress tests? are those in the CE protocol.

All test protocols and results will be released before releasing of products? Sounds like standard CE protocol to me.

Your claim that the greeks are only doing CE testing is unsupported by the facts.

Your quote from them about CE standards comes from a thread with 2 posts on it entitled CE certification! here is the link!

http://www.defkalion-energy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=61

amazingly, they explained the testing related to CE certification when asked about CE certification.

Next time you choose to insult me, please actually research what you are saying first.

 

[Aepervius]

Aepervius



It is not inconceivable that each e-cat will have network capability.

Since you are not familiar with high surface energy metal nanoparticles in a reduced atmosphere, you will have to trust me when I tell you that simply venting the hydrogen from the reactor would likely be enough to materially alter the powders inside the device to an extent where they could not be reverse engineered.

Oh. Please. Firstly you do not know what I am familiar with or not. Secondely : Evidence please, since you are so aqauainted with the phenomenon, I am sure you will be able to point us to a good litterature. ETAETA: and the litterature must show that reverse engineering is impossible, aka a physicist would not be able to tell what the original compound WAS from all method available and knowing the reduction which happened. ETA : Oh and PS you are not even sure what the manufacturing IS so so much for your theory, when defkalion GT even later made a step back and said they would just go for coca cola secret type of recept. Or at least implied it.

The SELF-DESTRUCT capability could be as simple as that...

Again evidence please.

Some microchips have self destruct capability that is simply induced by regular room lights.

That is not a microchip.

You probably imagine some sort of explosive when you hear self-destruct but that is a simplistic assumption based on inexperience.

No, I assume they are talking out of their *** and making it up as they go.

Regardless.

While I am sure you are having fun trying to tell me I am full of it, I am sure we can both agree that Rossi must be acting in concert with Defkalion to perpetrate any fraud. Which is the take home message I meant to convey in my original post.

*shrug* who is acting with who, and who is genuinely mistaken ? I have no idea. I am even open minded enough to assume there is a slight possibility they have something.

 

[Aepervius]

Horatius

They also say



Stress tests? are those in the CE protocol.

All test protocols and results will be released before releasing of products? Sounds like standard CE protocol to me.

Your claim that the greeks are only doing CE testing is unsupported by the facts.

Your quote from them about CE standards comes from a thread with 2 posts on it entitled CE certification! here is the link!

http://www.defkalion-energy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=61

amazingly, they explained the testing related to CE certification when asked about CE certification.

Next time you choose to insult me, please actually research what you are saying first.

*WHICH* of those test is supposed to say eCat is producing more energy than it takes ton run ? *twiddle thumb*.

Hint : they are all safety and safety related test.

 

[Christian Klippel]

Horatius

They also say

Safety test in progress by the Greek Authorities include procedures and scenarios (for all ranges of products) on:
-Stress tests
-Operational and safety test in not normal conditions (fire, earthquake etc). Please note that Greece is a country with earthquakes and very high safety standards because of the earthquakes
-EU regulation SEVESO II related tests (hydrogen storage and handling)
-Tests on critical components failure
-All tests for radiations etc, according to EU standards
-Safety/Stability tests
-Other safety related tests

All tests protocols and results will be released and published in Defkalion's site with the Certificates from the Greek Authorities before any releasing of products in Greece.

Thank you for your remarks

PS E-cat lab prototype shielding is 3 mm thick. Your toaster may produce more radiation than an e-cat .

Stress tests? are those in the CE protocol.

All test protocols and results will be released before releasing of products? Sounds like standard CE protocol to me.

Read it again, very carefully. First, they say nothing about the eCat, but instead say "for all ranges of products", which could be just some thermostats and transformers, for all we know.

Then, it still say absolutely nothing about testing the claimed functionality of the device. It's all about safety and related issues. For all we know they could simply present a modified hot-water boiler to them, slap an "eCat" label on it so that this name shows up in the reports, and later claim it was Rossis device that was tested instead.

Oh, and no, at least for CE (and i guess a lot of other things as well) no reports and protocols are released prior to sale. In fact you would be very lucky too see any such thing at all as customer. All that you get to see is a claim of the manufacturer that such testing was done and that the results matched the spec's given. Rarely you also get a copy of the final certificate itself. To get the full reports and protocols you usually have to be an importer or distributor, and even then you don't get them always.

Greetings,

Chris

 

[BenBurch]

It is hilarious that we are even discussing this still, or that anybody holds out hope that this is real;

Obviously phony demos.
Imaginary scientists claimed to be on the review board.
Guy is a known con man.

 

[ben m]

Obviously phony demos.
Imaginary scientists claimed to be on the review board.
Guy is a known con man.

But his shell company has put out a press release which, under certain assumptions about Greek consumer law, could be interpreted as supporting his claims!

 

[Aepervius]

@Crawdaddy, and when you are finished digging up your refrence, explain us how this self destruct device will work, if the scientist wanting to exmaine it, take the precaution to do it under H2 atmosphere, or replace the H2 feed by a He feed, or even N2 feed exmaine the stuff under He/N2 atmosphere, or just plain vaccuum pump it, etc...etc....etc...

 

[Crawdaddy]

Aepervius

@Crawdaddy, and when you are finished digging up your refrence, explain us how this self destruct device will work, if the scientist wanting to exmaine it, take the precaution to do it under H2 atmosphere, or replace the H2 feed by a He feed, or even N2 feed exmaine the stuff under He/N2 atmosphere, or just plain vaccuum pump it, etc...etc....etc...

Hmmm let me give you an advanced degree in material science... there done.

As to your list of ways to defeat the self-destruct mechanism: I don't care.

*shrug* who is acting with who, and who is genuinely mistaken ? I have no idea. I am even open minded enough to assume there is a slight possibility they have something.

Congratulations you are now officially a TRUE BELIEVER and FULL of WOOO.

 

[Christian Klippel]

But his shell company has put out a press release which, under certain assumptions about Greek consumer law, could be interpreted as supporting his claims!

And their units are called Hyperion, see, there are _real_ reactors from Hyperion. So this must be really real! CE approved real, to be exact

Greetings,

Chris

 

[catsmate]

Since you are not familiar with high surface energy metal nanoparticles in a reduced atmosphere, you will have to trust me when I tell you that simply venting the hydrogen from the reactor would likely be enough to materially alter the powders inside the device to an extent where they could not be reverse engineered.

Oh good grief.

 

[catsmate]

Well, they say that they will release results of such testing after the certificates are issued. It's quite some ambiguity in their language. One might say "carefully crafted to confuse the people".

Which, assuming this is a reference to the CE marking process, doesn't make sense; Rossi's magic heater doesn't require 3rd party, let alone governmental, examination for its category.

Doesn't it already raise a red flag for you that they use "Hyperion" as a name in conjunction with their "cold fusion reactor", given the fact that these guys are actually a legit company, using the Hyperion name already, working on a real reactor?

And who is Defkalion anyways? No one knows about them or has heard about them before the Rossi spectacle. Speaking of Rossi, did you notice that he also had some company called "Eon" (or was involved in one), while (again) there is already a very legit company in the energy sector using that name?
How comes that all this Rossi crap is connected to misleadingly named companies, that by some strange coincidence are also involved in energy generation/distribution?

This appears to be a standard tactic of Rossi, to parasite off the good name/brand recognition of existing companies. He's doing it in the US, Italy and Greece. Also with his "journal".

The only thing that could give this whole affair some credibility is third party testing and replication by third parties, and not only by one, but by several. Doesn't Rossi claim to have hundreds of these eCat's in operation already? Should be easy to send a few of them to high profile lab's to get real results.

Exactly. But I'll confidently state that this will never happen.

But for some (not-so-) strange reason that is exactly what he avoids at all costs. The only thing thing that could have any meaning at all is avoided by him. Instead all we have is anecdotes from him and his companions, and some very suspect "companies" that no one has ever heard of before and which use names already used by legit companies in the energy field.

And we should really take their word for it? Come on, you can't be serious with that. This whole setup screams scam all over. Especially given the fact that Rossi is no newcomer in the arena of scams and frauds.

Greetings,

Chris

Yup. I predict that in a few months Rossi will allow the scheme to collapse muttering darkly about his magic box being "suppressed" by someone or other. Just like last time.

 

[catsmate]

Stress tests? are those in the CE protocol.

No.

All test protocols and results will be released before releasing of products? Sounds like standard CE protocol to me.

Then you haven't bothered to do any research. Start with the CE links I posted earlier and educate yourself about the process.

Your claim that the greeks are only doing CE testing is unsupported by the facts.

What "facts"? Rossi and his cheerleaders are careful not to give any details about this mysterious tests.

Your quote from them about CE standards comes from a thread with 2 posts on it entitled CE certification! here is the link!

http://www.defkalion-energy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=61

amazingly, they explained the testing related to CE certification when asked about CE certification.

That is blatantly untrue. The only response on that page to the query about the nature of the testing is:

Out of the CE standards, Hyperion products (kW or MW range) have to pass all tests described the the Greek and EU lows according to their industrial code classification.
The Authorities responsible to test and certify are
-The Ministry of Regional Development and Industry
-The Ministry of Environment and Energy
through their appointed by low labs.

If you can read greek, we can send to you all relevant legislation for your info.
Thank you for your question

Note the utter absence of actual details, code categories and legislative references. Quelle suprise. It's also untrue, I suggest you peruse the CE info links already posted.

Next time you choose to insult me, please actually research what you are saying first.

Next time you post you do some research first.

 

[Christian Klippel]

Which, assuming this is a reference to the CE marking process, doesn't make sense; Rossi's magic heater doesn't require 3rd party, let alone governmental, examination for its category.

Exactly. The wording itself, when read carefully, can only mean that they want to release the "Results of these official tests on performance, stability, functionality and safety" _after_ getting a certification. Which makes no sense if by "certification" they refer to said "official results": Because those results would be available _before_ any certification. Or in other words: They would be no certification prior to the results, obviously. So in my understanding they must mean the CE if they talk about certification.

This appears to be a standard tactic of Rossi, to parasite off the good name/brand recognition of existing companies. He's doing it in the US, Italy and Greece. Also with his "journal".

Maybe someone should send the good folks at the real Hyperion a note about what's going on. I'm pretty sure that they wouldn't be happy about that at all.

Exactly. But I'll confidently state that this will never happen.

Of course not. Doing so would instantly expose it for what it is.

Yup. I predict that in a few months Rossi will allow the scheme to collapse muttering darkly about his magic box being "suppressed" by someone or other. Just like last time.

OK, i'm in. I bet a few bottles of beer from the local brewery here: I bet that Rossi will claim that DGT was trying to steal his invention/not pay him, and thus he now has to find someone else, which of course will take some time. As a second option i bet that he will claim that DGT failed to implement his magic properly. However, i prefer my first scenario. Are you in too?

Greetings,

Chris

 

[catsmate]

It is hilarious that we are even discussing this still, or that anybody holds out hope that this is real;

Obviously phony demos.
Imaginary scientists claimed to be on the review board.
Guy is a known con man.

Well technically only two of the named members of his "review board" have denied association (I'm not fluent in Italian so I didn't pursue the others), the third was a real scientist, until his death.

 

[catsmate]

Aepervius



Hmmm let me give you an advanced degree in material science... there done.

Really? Based on your posting history here I don't believe you. Not that it matters much.
Though if you want to start counting degrees I have an M.Sc. in materials science, M.Phys. in applied physics and Ph.D. in theoretical. I can also count on my SO (M.Sc., two Ph.D., ScD.) who's a tenured physicist. And if you really want to start the "mine is bigger than yours" thing this forum can muster an impressive collection.
Unlike Rossi with his diploma mill rubbish............

As to your list of ways to defeat the self-destruct mechanism: I don't care.

Of course you don't.

Congratulations you are now officially a TRUE BELIEVER and FULL of WOOO.

I'm getting a lot of use out of this smilie.

 

[Crawdaddy]

Catsmate1

your post at 3:25 makes absolutely no sense. Many posters were basing their claim that the greek authorities were only conducting CE testing on a post by hoverboarder. I pointed out that that assumption wasn't supported by the facts. You have misinterpreted sarcasm... sorry.

The link I posted was to show what little evidence people were basing their claims that CE testing was the only external testing being done.

I am glad you misunderstood what I wrote because you ended up strongly agreeing with me! Imagine that... wooster.

Really? Based on your posting history here I don't believe you. Not that it matters much.
Though if you want to start counting degrees I have an M.Sc. in materials science, M.Phys. in applied physics and Ph.D. in theoretical. I can also count on my SO (M.Sc., two Ph.D., ScD.) who's a tenured physicist. And if you really want to start the "mine is bigger than yours" thing this forum can muster an impressive collection.
Unlike Rossi with his diploma mill rubbish............

Excellent, then you must agree that microcrystalline grain structure of nickel nanoparticles that have been heated in a reducing atmosphere (see the Ahern description) to remove their native oxide layer, blended with an unspecified "catalyst", and possibly further processed under a reducing atmosphere could very well be irreversibly altered upon exposure to oxygen. Furthermore, even if the nanoparticle morphology was not greatly altered, the reduced surface, likely the reaction site (otherwise why bother making nanoparticles in the first place), would be oxidized and the details of the surface properties lost.

 

[ben m]

Excellent, then you must agree that microcrystalline grain structure of nickel nanoparticles that have been heated in a reducing atmosphere (see the Ahern description) to remove their native oxide layer, blended with an unspecified "catalyst", and possibly further processed under a reducing atmosphere could very well be irreversibly altered upon exposure to oxygen.

Disagree. Oxygen diffusion isn't all that fast.

Furthermore, even if the nanoparticle morphology was not greatly altered, the reduced surface, likely the reaction site (otherwise why bother making nanoparticles in the first place), would be oxidized and the details of the surface properties lost.

First: "reaction site"? What reaction site? This isn't an enzyme. The nickel isn't supposed to be a catalysts for a hydrogen-hydrogen reaction. It's supposed to be fuel for Ni + H --> Cu + Magic Invisible Gamma Rays. If Rossi has set this up so that it only works at a carefully-prepared surface, then his reactor can't possibly run very long.

This is yet another example of you making up properties for Rossi's device, out of thin air, in order to justify the idea that the device works and Rossi's behavior is honest.

Second: Fine. Highly reactive nanopowder. Need to study it without exposing it to oxygen. Fine. There's a glovebox for exactly that task, right across the quad from me, right now.