Thought experiment: Pearl Harbour as a 9/11 target

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I've been thinking... what if they decided to hit Pearl Harbour instead, because of its historical significance as America's last surprise attack victim? What vessels were present there and what was the readiness at the time?

I guess what I'm asking is, could the terrorists have hijacked airliners, flown to Pearl, and crashed their hijacked planes into, say, a moored American aircraft carrier?
 
Just spit-ballin' here, but I imagine the crew of the carrier would utilize the tools at their disposal.

Kaboom.
 
I don't know Hawaii very well, but are there many airports for large commercial airliners? That was part of the redundancy plan in the 9/11 attacks. I don't think an airliner could have come all the way from the mainland--at least not just using box cutters.
 
Just spit-ballin' here, but I imagine the crew of the carrier would utilize the tools at their disposal.
Pearl didn't use the tools at its disposal until well into the attack in 1941. Also, it wasn't until after 9/11 that the "hijacked airplane as cruise missile" idea became a real thought in peoples' minds.
 
Pearl didn't use the tools at its disposal until well into the attack in 1941. Also, it wasn't until after 9/11 that the "hijacked airplane as cruise missile" idea became a real thought in peoples' minds.

There is no reason for this to be true. If people in charge of military and security affairs were intellectually blind to the idea that civilian airliners could be crashed into buildings or military targets then they either hadn't studied previous attempts and/or lacked imagination.

But anyway, the whole idea of hijacking aircraft and flying all the way to Hawaii to crash into Pearl Harbor because of the resonance Pearl Harbor has to Americans is quixotic and impractical. You may as well ask why they haven't tried to blow the faces off Mount Rushmore with canons.
 
I don't know Hawaii very well, but are there many airports for large commercial airliners? That was part of the redundancy plan in the 9/11 attacks. I don't think an airliner could have come all the way from the mainland--at least not just using box cutters.

There are three international airports in Hawaii. Honolulu International has planes up to and incuding A380s taking off and landing and I imagine that the other two service at least 757s.
 
There is no reason for this to be true. If people in charge of military and security affairs were intellectually blind to the idea that civilian airliners could be crashed into buildings or military targets then they either hadn't studied previous attempts and/or lacked imagination.

But anyway, the whole idea of hijacking aircraft and flying all the way to Hawaii to crash into Pearl Harbor because of the resonance Pearl Harbor has to Americans is quixotic and impractical. You may as well ask why they haven't tried to blow the faces off Mount Rushmore with canons.

They could have just taken off from Hawaii and turned around.
 
I thought I already sent this post but there usually aren't that many ships at Pearl Harbor. And rarely any aircraft carriers; none of them are based at Pearl.
 
There are three international airports in Hawaii. Honolulu International has planes up to and incuding A380s taking off and landing and I imagine that the other two service at least 757s.

Then it certainly could have been done.

I don't think the historical significance of Pearl is nearly as relevant to Al Qaeda as the symbolic significance of the WTC Towers, though. It was seen as the symbol of western capitalism, and the killing or at least threatening of civilians is sort of the main point of terrorism compared to a more conventional war between nations.
 
OK, that's an interesting counterfactual.

Here's a factual: Most people got really upset about the Twin Towers. Very few people got upset about the Pentagon.

I think that if the 9/11 hijackers only attacked targets that were military (or appeared to be), then a lot fewer Americans would have gone mad or even been upset. The idea of attacking a military target would, I think, have had a lot less psychological effect than attacking specifically civilians, especially such a symbol of New York.

There wasn't a lot of reaction to the attacks on the Cole and various embassies, not compared to the WTC.
 
Then it certainly could have been done.

I don't think the historical significance of Pearl is nearly as relevant to Al Qaeda as the symbolic significance of the WTC Towers, though. It was seen as the symbol of western capitalism, and the killing or at least threatening of civilians is sort of the main point of terrorism compared to a more conventional war between nations.

This. It's not that I want to throw cold water on the OP, because it's essentially a gedanken experiment. That said, it's a little hard to envision Al Qaeda in general (let alone Bin Laden specifically) targeting something that's not interpretable as a centerpiece of western civilization. Recall: The desire to attack the Twin Towers aka the World Trade Center was to attack a symbol of Western wealth; multiple books on Bin Laden showed him as both disdainful of US wealth and aggravated that they chose to bypass him in order to fund the Afghan mujahadeen directly. And I have a personal theory that it was also to get back at the US for setting in motion the events that would strip him of a great deal of wealth in the Sudan, but that's just me. Anyway, Pearl Harbor has a great deal of historical significance to Americans, but I don't see that as resonating with Al Qaeda members or Bin Laden himself. It would just be another military base to him, possibly with some historical interest, but it wouldn't have been as iconic a target to him, I believe, as something representative of western wealth.

But putting that aside, let's consider the gedankenexperiment on its own terms: What if they hit an aircraft carrier there? Well, to be honest, I simply don't think it would've been taken by the general public as being anywhere near as devastating an experience as the WTC attacks were. And that's because a US Navy ship - even a moored one - would have been considered an attack on a military symbol. Whereas to average Americans (like myself), hitting the World Trade Center came off as attacking citizens directly. Yes, intellectually I know that to Bin Laden and his cohorts it was merely another symbol, but most of us Americans didn't see it that way. What we saw was a bunch of average, white collar, working class Joes or Janes being attacked and killed in the Towers. Not a bunch of supposedly ursurpive, scheming capitalists, nor a passel of government officials, but folks like us. Whereas even among those of us who hold the military in high esteem understand the choice of a military target; we'd call it underhanded, illegal, and even evil, and we still would've thought of it as terrorism, but we would've emotionally understood the symbology better, even as we railed against it.

Hitting a CVN at Pearl may have cost the US more in monetary damages had it happened, and it might have possibly taken more lives. Yet in spite of that, I can't help but think that the US populace wouldn't have taken it anywhere near as deeply a soul wounding experience as what actually happened in New York. I'm not saying that's right; I'm only saying that's how I believe the populace at large would've reacted.
 
But putting that aside, let's consider the gedankenexperiment on its own terms: What if they hit an aircraft carrier there? Well, to be honest, I simply don't think it would've been taken by the general public as being anywhere near as devastating an experience as the WTC attacks were. And that's because a US Navy ship - even a moored one - would have been considered an attack on a military symbol. Whereas to average Americans (like myself), hitting the World Trade Center came off as attacking citizens directly. Yes, intellectually I know that to Bin Laden and his cohorts it was merely another symbol, but most of us Americans didn't see it that way. What we saw was a bunch of average, white collar, working class Joes or Janes being attacked and killed in the Towers. Not a bunch of supposedly ursurpive, scheming capitalists, nor a passel of government officials, but folks like us. Whereas even among those of us who hold the military in high esteem understand the choice of a military target; we'd call it underhanded, illegal, and even evil, and we still would've thought of it as terrorism, but we would've emotionally understood the symbology better, even as we railed against it.

I don't think this is quite true.

Surely an important factor here is that the Twin Towers burned for over an hour on live rolling news broadcasts before collapsing and one of the two towers was hit by a second plane live on TV. I think the collapses themselves and the pictures of people throwing themselves off the building created some of the more horrifying scenes that will stay in the memories of everyone who witnessed the attacks.

It is too abstract to say that it was because the Twin Towers were full of civilians and the Pentagon was full of military men and women. If the Twin Towers had been attacked in just the same way and had been a military base then I think people would still have ended up with the same emotional impact. Remember that the plane which flew into the Pentagon was also full of civilians and the bombs that ripped apart the US embassy in Nairobi killed 200 civilians yet the thing that probably makes it different is the live broadcasts of the attacks. The fact that everyone witnessed them.

For this reason also, then. An attack on Pearl Harbor may not have had the impact that the attack on the Twin Towers had because it is unlikely that we would have the same images from such an attack.
 
No ship has as many people in it as a World Trade Center tower, and the people they do have would be "warriors", not innocent civilians, so they don't fit the target profile the Muslims were after. So if there had been an attack in Hawaii, it would have been against the biggest or most densely packed public building they could find in the nearby cities. But then, if you're going for a big building full of civilians, why would you think of a place that isn't known for having such buildings? Several other American cities have several buildings that fit better the kind of target they wanted.

Also, if they'd gone for a military base, they would have faced a higher chance of the base defending itself before the plane(s) got there.
 
No ship has as many people in it as a World Trade Center tower, and the people they do have would be "warriors", not innocent civilians, so they don't fit the target profile the Muslims were after. So if there had been an attack in Hawaii, it would have been against the biggest or most densely packed public building they could find in the nearby cities. But then, if you're going for a big building full of civilians, why would you think of a place that isn't known for having such buildings? Several other American cities have several buildings that fit better the kind of target they wanted.

Also, if they'd gone for a military base, they would have faced a higher chance of the base defending itself before the plane(s) got there.

I thought carriers had more than thousands on board for sure.

The potential harm from a nuclear powered aircraft carrier being smashed into by a jet liner would be horrific. I believe they are also nuclear armed?

Could have been a nastier result for the islands nearby for sure. Militarily it would be a nasty blow, but not a crippling one. Politically it would certainly have had different responses amongst the population both civilian and military. What those different responses might have been is anyones guess really.
 
I thought carriers had more than thousands on board for sure.

The potential harm from a nuclear powered aircraft carrier being smashed into by a jet liner would be horrific. I believe they are also nuclear armed?

Could have been a nastier result for the islands nearby for sure. Militarily it would be a nasty blow, but not a crippling one. Politically it would certainly have had different responses amongst the population both civilian and military. What those different responses might have been is anyones guess really.

Nimitz carriers carry about 6,000 sailors. But they wouldn't all be aboard if the ship was on port. Plus, like I said, it would be unusual for a carrier to be at Pearl Harbor. As for the reactors, those ships are very heavily armored and very large so I think they would be fine.
 
Pearl Harbor was a calculated military strike, starting a war with a specific goal in mind:
Eliminate the American pacific fleet to give Imperial Japan the time it would have needed to fortify the pacific to the point that it would have been far more bloody than it was to get back.
What possible use would it be for a terrorist group that does NOT have a full blown fleet, airforce and army poised to attack and occupy 8+ different targets in the pacific to attempt to take down 1 carrier?
Apart from the already mentioned defenses on military ships, carriers are designed to at least attempt to survive a direct impact from flying objects designed to cripple them, like bombs, torpedo's and kamikaze aircraft.
 
I've been thinking... what if they decided to hit Pearl Harbour instead, because of its historical significance as America's last surprise attack victim? What vessels were present there and what was the readiness at the time?

I guess what I'm asking is, could the terrorists have hijacked airliners, flown to Pearl, and crashed their hijacked planes into, say, a moored American aircraft carrier?

I guess that would have been possible. After all, Hawaii does have international airports and aircraft carriers do occasionally berth at Pearl Harbor.

However, my guess is that the 9/11 hijackers would have found it easier to crash their planes into a very large stationary building as opposed to something smaller and moveable like an aircraft carrier.

And while an aircraft carrier is large for a ship, it is still much smaller than the World Trade Center Towers or the Pentagon Building.
 
I don't think this is quite true.

Surely an important factor here is that the Twin Towers burned for over an hour on live rolling news broadcasts before collapsing and one of the two towers was hit by a second plane live on TV. I think the collapses themselves and the pictures of people throwing themselves off the building created some of the more horrifying scenes that will stay in the memories of everyone who witnessed the attacks.

It is too abstract to say that it was because the Twin Towers were full of civilians and the Pentagon was full of military men and women. If the Twin Towers had been attacked in just the same way and had been a military base then I think people would still have ended up with the same emotional impact. Remember that the plane which flew into the Pentagon was also full of civilians and the bombs that ripped apart the US embassy in Nairobi killed 200 civilians yet the thing that probably makes it different is the live broadcasts of the attacks. The fact that everyone witnessed them.

For this reason also, then. An attack on Pearl Harbor may not have had the impact that the attack on the Twin Towers had because it is unlikely that we would have the same images from such an attack.

I respect your disagreement, and I also see your point about the TV images. No doubt that they were a large component of the psychological wounding. I fully agree that it's a large factor.

That said, I in turn don't agree with your dismissal of civillian and military distinction. Remember: We have incidents of prior attacks to study, and I do see more anger and horror being displayed at civillian targets over military ones. When you look at the USS Cole attack, the Kenyan embassy bombing, etc., none of those impacted as much as even the WTC bombing in the 90s (years before September 11, 2001). The attacks the public has always viewed as horrific were ones like the Bali bombings, the Lockerbie 747 bomb, back in the 80's the Berlin discotheque bombing, and so on.

Take this pair of executions by terrorists as a test case: Leon Klinghoffer and Robert Stenthem. Both were horrific events. Both actually occurred within months of each other. Both were of course by Islamic terrorists (Palestinian ones in the former, Hezbollah in the latter). And both were on US tourists that happened to be on the cruise (former) or flight (latter) that was targeted. Yet, which victim is recalled more as symbolic of the sort of horror that terrorism represented? As a single anecdote speaking towards this: I've discovered that a musical tragedy has been written about one of these victims, and it wasn't the one who was a Navy Seabee.

Another casual measure (admittedly non rigorous) is the simple number of news hits relative to each other. I find more on Klinghoffer. And I'm tempted to go to the local university library and make a more rigorous measure of this, see how many feature articles are written on one compared to the other. That would be a mild measure of popular interest in one case over the other.

I think the trend would hold true for the reporting and feature column apearances for other events, and the dividing line would be between civillian and military targets. I further think it might be possible to gauge outrage by analyzing the verbiage in respective articles, although that starts to wander into subjective measurements, so maybe it wouldn't be a good idea. Regardless, this could be the beginning of a testable hypothesis. But getting back on track: My own perceptions has been that more outrage has been spent over the civillian aspects than the military ones. Looking at 9/11 but past the New York events: I see more general outrage at the Flight 93 crash than I do the Flight 77 crash. Part of that of course is the narrative: Passengers attempted to retake UA93, whereas AA77's passengers were not recorded doing anything similar. But I cannot separate out the fact that Flight 93's popular, public narrative centers around the civillian passengers far more than Flight 77's does, and I attribute much of that to the fact that UA93 didn't hit anything but a field, therefore the spotlight is on the passengers reactions. Whereas there were actually more civillians killed in the Flight 77 attack ("53 passengers and 6 crew members aboard American Airlines Flight 77; 33 passengers and 7 crew members aboard United Airlines Flight 93"... and that doesn't include civillians on the ground in the Pentagon (70 killed)), but the narrative revolves around the fact that it hit the Pentagon. And on top of all that, there's a very evocative, emotive movie on UA93, but none on AA77. UA93 seems to resonate, seems to "hurt" more, so to speak than Flight 77 does. And this in spite of the fact that you can argue the Pentagon event had a far bigger civillian impact than the Shanksville one. Yet it's Flight 93 that gets the movie and also ensconced in society's memory.

I don't think the distinction can be dismissed easily. I don't think it's necessarily right that people don't view attacks on military buildings and targets as less horrific - those are still citizens, still living, breathing people there, they're simply in uniform - but I do think it's one of the fundamental distinctions being made by the general public. And I think a study of past terrorist events bears this out.
 
I thought carriers had more than thousands on board for sure.

The potential harm from a nuclear powered aircraft carrier being smashed into by a jet liner would be horrific. I believe they are also nuclear armed?

Armed? Can a knowledgeable person confirm or dispel this claim?
 
So our top of the line Military toy (arguably...) is just going to sit around and be caught completely off guard by a civilian plane crashing into it.

Jeez, I hope no one with actual warplanes hears how easy this is. I don't know nuthin' 'bout no army stuff, but I am guessing that there are people paid to watch for things that are about to smash into the goddamn ship.

Or maybe not, maybe they toss the keys to the seventeen year old valet when they get to port and go get blind drunk. I am sure the ship is insured, if he wrecks it they will just get a newer model.
 

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