Merged Cold Fusion Claims

[Stellafane]

Cold fusion -- there's a blast from the past. I didn't know anyone believed in this stuff anymore.

Seeing this thread reminds me of my micro-acquaintanceship with the late Eugene Mallove, the so-called Champion of Cold Fusion. For those unfamiliar with Dr. Mallove's work, he was to cold fusion what John Mack was to alien abductions: a highly trained scientist (MIT and Harvard) whose seemingly inexplicable support gave cold fusion claims a veneer of respectability. I first met Dr. Mallove years ago at Astronomy New England, a telescope store he ran. I have to admit, I didn't much like him at first -- I found his sales technique decidedly pushy, with a faint attitude of "Oh, I know you want that telescope mount over there, but anyone who knows anything about astronomy would buy this more expensive one here." (It was more subtle than that of course, but the vibe was definitely there.)

Nonetheless I was a semi-regular customer for a while, until we had a falling out over a telescope sale Dr. Mallove attempted to broker. The owner of the telescope I wanted to buy turned out to be something of a shady character, attempting to change the agreed-upon terms by removing some of the telescope's components, jacking up the price, etc. Finally I had enough and called Dr. Mallove to inform him the deal was off. But rather than offer sympathy, he argued that I should go through with the deal anyway! (I guess he didn't want to lose his commission.) The conversation became rather heated when I indicated I wasn't inclined to follow his advice, and we hung up on less than cordial terms. I never set foot in his store again.

I ran into Dr. Mallove several years later at the annual Stellafane amateur astronomy convention, which I was attending with my newly minted bride. Dr. Mallove was selling autographed copies of his new book (given the time frame, it was probably the one on space propulsion systems). What struck me immediately was how much more relaxed and gregarious he seemed compared to our previous meetings. We chatted a bit about Astronomy New England, he cracked a self-deprecating joke or two. As I walked away, it seemed to me that Dr. Mallove had found his true calling in life, one in which he was obviously far more comfortable and happy.

A few years later, I saw a review of Dr. Mallove's book on cold fusion in Skeptical Inquirer. The review of course was quite negative, as was the followup letter exchange between Dr. Mallove and the author of the review. At the time, I just figured it was Mallove the saleman resurfacing, trying to protect his investment in a book whose subject matter had turned sour in between the time he first started writing it and its publication. As a published author myself, I can fully sympathize with not wanting to lose out on an effort of that magnitude, so I guess I couldn't really blame him for wanting to get at least something out of his work.

Thus I was somewhat surprised when Dr. Mallove continued to support cold fusion claims in the subsequent years, quickly becoming its highest-profile champion, a very large fish in a small and rather curious pond. He continued to be an active advocate right up to his untimely death in 2004. (And yeah, I know combining "untimely" and "death" is rather cliche -- how many deaths are "timely? -- but when you get murdered while cleaning out your childhood home, that qualifies as "untimely.")

I guess one could speculate forever as to why Dr. Mallove fell so hard and so far for a claim that all his extensive training must have screamed at him was utter bogus. For me, I have to wonder if it had something to do with the old telescope saleman in him, forever trying to close the cold fusion deal long after it had become obvious to everyone else that the whole thing had already fallen through.

 

[HoverBoarder]

Cold fusion -- there's a blast from the past. I didn't know anyone believed in this stuff anymore.

Seeing this thread reminds me of my micro-acquaintanceship with the late Eugene Mallove, the so-called Champion of Cold Fusion. For those unfamiliar with Dr. Mallove's work, he was to cold fusion what John Mack was to alien abductions: a highly trained scientist (MIT and Harvard) whose seemingly inexplicable support gave cold fusion claims a veneer of respectability. I first met Dr. Mallove years ago at Astronomy New England, a telescope store he ran. I have to admit, I didn't much like him at first -- I found his sales technique decidedly pushy, with a faint attitude of "Oh, I know you want that telescope mount over there, but anyone who knows anything about astronomy would buy this more expensive one here." (It was more subtle than that of course, but the vibe was definitely there.)

Nonetheless I was a semi-regular customer for a while, until we had a falling out over a telescope sale Dr. Mallove attempted to broker. The owner of the telescope I wanted to buy turned out to be something of a shady character, attempting to change the agreed-upon terms by removing some of the telescope's components, jacking up the price, etc. Finally I had enough and called Dr. Mallove to inform him the deal was off. But rather than offer sympathy, he argued that I should go through with the deal anyway! (I guess he didn't want to lose his commission.) The conversation became rather heated when I indicated I wasn't inclined to follow his advice, and we hung up on less than cordial terms. I never set foot in his store again.

I ran into Dr. Mallove several years later at the annual Stellafane amateur astronomy convention, which I was attending with my newly minted bride. Dr. Mallove was selling autographed copies of his new book (given the time frame, it was probably the one on space propulsion systems). What struck me immediately was how much more relaxed and gregarious he seemed compared to our previous meetings. We chatted a bit about Astronomy New England, he cracked a self-deprecating joke or two. As I walked away, it seemed to me that Dr. Mallove had found his true calling in life, one in which he was obviously far more comfortable and happy.

A few years later, I saw a review of Dr. Mallove's book on cold fusion in Skeptical Inquirer. The review of course was quite negative, as was the followup letter exchange between Dr. Mallove and the author of the review. At the time, I just figured it was Mallove the saleman resurfacing, trying to protect his investment in a book whose subject matter had turned sour in between the time he first started writing it and its publication. As a published author myself, I can fully sympathize with not wanting to lose out on an effort of that magnitude, so I guess I couldn't really blame him for wanting to get at least something out of his work.

Thus I was somewhat surprised when Dr. Mallove continued to support cold fusion claims in the subsequent years, quickly becoming its highest-profile champion, a very large fish in a small and rather curious pond. He continued to be an active advocate right up to his untimely death in 2004. (And yeah, I know combining "untimely" and "death" is rather cliche -- how many deaths are "timely? -- but when you get murdered while cleaning out your childhood home, that qualifies as "untimely.")

I guess one could speculate forever as to why Dr. Mallove fell so hard and so far for a claim that all his extensive training must have screamed at him was utter bogus. For me, I have to wonder if it had something to do with the old telescope saleman in him, forever trying to close the cold fusion deal long after it had become obvious to everyone else that the whole thing had already fallen through.

What an interesting story, thank you for sharing it.

 

[HoverBoarder]

In case anyone would care to know, here is the method that Defkalion, the company who is selling the E-Cat device in Greece under the product name "Hyperion," described for the testing process for their devices:

http://www.defkalion-energy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=104&start=50

it would go a long way towards allying a lot of the questions about this device to give more information on the discrepancies in testing.

Yes it would. In particular, you have said that production Hyperion modules incorporate a completely liquid cooling circuit (no steam). They also have built-in measurement sensors for flow rate and temperature rise. So I'd like to ask you:

a) Do you have some working prototype or production modules which incorporate these sensors?

b) Have you tested them?

c) For a few of the longest duration tests you have, could you please release the following information?

- generically without detail, the type of fluid used
- electrical power input and how it was measured and whether AC or DC
- flow rate (either mass or volume since it's a liquid)
- delta T (temperature difference) across the module (input to output) in the fluid as a function of time
- something, again generic, about the type of temperature sensors used and the nature of the readout equipment

If you can not provide this, why not? Thank you.

a) Yes we have. Mass Sensors based on the ultrasound principal, specialy designed and produced in Greece for Defkalion. ±0.5% officially certified accuracy, European Safety Standards: IEC-1010 and CE - EMC. Detaction of air and automatic adjustment. Embeded thermometer (Type K Chromium-Alum): Accuracy ± (0.1% rdg +1°C).

b) Yes we have

c) 1. Glycole*
2. 220/230V, 5-15W according to different configurations
3. Diffenet configurations available. Typically 50-250Lt/minute (12GPM to 65GPM)
4. We will provide exact tables and graphs with Hyperion product specs.
5. Reports to Hyperion internal electronics with sample rate 2.5/sec.

* also tested with other coolants.

Thank you for your question

They also expanded on their method with this response:

Mass Sensors based on the ultrasound principal...

Someone pointed out to me that ultrasound meters measure flow velocity and therefore are basically sensitive to volume flow, not mass flow. Did you mean volume flow? And if not, how does your mass flow meter work using ultrasound? I don't mean to be picky but much has been made of this volume vs mass flow issue though in a liquid, I don't understand why.

I am sure I am not the only one who is awaiting with extreme anticipation the photos of the production line and production model Hyperion devices and of course those much requested performance measurements. Anyway thanks for the response.

In a close circuit, the volume (and the mass) of a coolant is constant. Using ultrasonic meters for coolants that do not change phase within their closed circuit, mass flow and volume flow conclude exactly the same when measuring energy.

The method under the name "mass calorimeter" has been defined by Grabowsky at all in details in ICCF 16 (February 2011) as the preferred method for LENR measurements. (http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/GrabowskiKrobustperf.pdf)

The basis of this method, as described in the linked paper, has been addapted in our "mass calorimeter" method embeded as a standard in all of our products as well as for several calibration or testing procedures.

 

[Andrew Wiggin]

I keep parsing the name Defkalion as 'de flaky con' unless I carefully sound it out each time.

 

[Craig B]

Andrew

Defkalion is the modern spelling of Deucalion, the Greek "Noah" who, along with his wife Pyrrha, survived a big flood sent by the angry god Zeus. A charming version of the tale is to be found at http://www.greeka.com/sterea/delphi/delphi-myths/deucalion-pyrrha.htm
I like this bit best.

Only two people would seem right: Deucalion, who was the son of Prometheus

He's the one who stole the fire of the Gods. Hot fusion, probably.

known for his rightful character and good advice, and his wife, Pyrrha, a very fair lady. The Gods had perceived them to be the most righteous amongst the men and women on Earth and had chosen them to be the only survivors of that catastrophe that was about to befall on every man and animal.

So Defkalion isn't any flaky con, but "most righteous". If that's what the Gods think, who are we to disagree?

 

[Aepervius]

Version 1:
There is no cold fusion reactor, and there is a fraud, but the inventor himself is not a fraudster. It is quite possible that he is just experiencing some mental problems (like many-many other inventors) which prevent him from admitting unpleasant facts of reality. Medical textbooks are full of descriptions of such mental states and similar cases.
But there is some other person, hidden behind the curtain. He is cold and rational, and he chose the inventor as a “scapegoat” for the final acts of this tragedy: when all the money will be gathered, and the time will come to run away as quickly as possible.

Version 2:
The inventor does have a real working cold fusion reactor, and one of scenarios he is considering: to get money from the “Big Oil”. To be able to do so, he should not leave any undeniable proof that his reactor works. Only in such case the “Big Oil” can safely come to agreement with him, and hide this invention in some dark place for many years to come – until oil resources exhausted.

Consider that :
* Rossi with his petrodragon stuff left an incredible mess to clean up and the tech did not pan out
* Was condemned and did prison for gold import/export fraud
* did made up an electrical heater with wonderful efficiency, the factory burned down, and he could enver reproduce his stuff

That quite make for a picture isn't it ?

ETA: and why the heck would big oil BURY a tech ? Why not buy the tech outright, buy nickel mines, and have a new field for shareholder to win money ??? Burying make no sense.

 

[catsmate]

Consider that :
* Rossi with his petrodragon stuff left an incredible mess to clean up and the tech did not pan out
* Was condemned and did prison for gold import/export fraud
* did made up an electrical heater with wonderful efficiency, the factory burned down, and he could enver reproduce his stuff

That quite make for a picture isn't it ?

ETA: and why the heck would big oil BURY a tech ? Why not buy the tech outright, buy nickel mines, and have a new field for shareholder to win money ??? Burying make no sense.

Let's now forget the fake journal, dead/uninvolved "editors" and history of parasiting off the reputation of companies similarly named to his own.

 

[HoverBoarder]

I keep parsing the name Defkalion as 'de flaky con' unless I carefully sound it out each time.

Andrew

Defkalion is the modern spelling of Deucalion, the Greek "Noah" who, along with his wife Pyrrha, survived a big flood sent by the angry god Zeus. A charming version of the tale is to be found at http://www.greeka.com/sterea/delphi/delphi-myths/deucalion-pyrrha.htm
I like this bit best. He's the one who stole the fire of the Gods. Hot fusion, probably. So Defkalion isn't any flaky con, but "most righteous". If that's what the Gods think, who are we to disagree?

I would say that 'da-flaky-con' is probably more appropriate.

 

[Andrew Wiggin]

Andrew

Defkalion is the modern spelling of Deucalion, the Greek "Noah" who, along with his wife Pyrrha, survived a big flood sent by the angry god Zeus. A charming version of the tale is to be found at http://www.greeka.com/sterea/delphi/delphi-myths/deucalion-pyrrha.htm
I like this bit best. He's the one who stole the fire of the Gods. Hot fusion, probably. So Defkalion isn't any flaky con, but "most righteous". If that's what the Gods think, who are we to disagree?

"most righteous"? You should put a smiley on that, so I don't have to post a laughing dog. If it referenced a fictional story about someone who didn't exist, they're the perfect canidate to shill an imaginary product that doesn't work.

 

[Crawdaddy]

HoverBoarder

Thanks for posting the defkalion test protocol.

This is further evidence against the notion that the device is an artifact of honest error.

In a closed loop glycol based system such as this, many of the uncertainties associated with measurements to date are eliminated.

 

[Crawdaddy]

From the Defkalion web site:

I have a few questions for defkalion:

1) Do you use glycol as the main heating loop and water as the secondary when testing the Hyperions?

2) Have you measured the input and output temperature as well as flow rate for the glycol loop to determine the output heat energy?

3) Is there a phase change in any of the coolants when you run you tests?

4) Do you run a test on the Hyperions after they are assembled that includes a thermal run away condition? Here I refer to output power being generated while no input power is applied.

5) Is it possible for you to display to us the test data from a typical power out/ power in run? I really would like to be able to calculate the power out / power in for a unit being tested in your factory.

6) Will each Hyperion unit have its own calibration chart? What type of information will be supplied on these charts?

Please forgive me if you have answered these questions in other threads. There is a great number of posts being made and I have a difficult time locating the ones from which I need information. Thank you for any response you may present.


Here are the answeres to your questions:

1) Glycol (up to 195C) or other coolants for higher temperatures are in the main closed heating loop cooling the reactor(s). Typically we test Hyperions with external U-tube multi-pass or plate external heat exchangers where, in most cases, water is in the secondary circuit.

2) Yes. We have answered already on the method and specs from the embedded ultrasonic flow meter devises and thermometers we use as standard in all Hyperions for calorimeter as part of the internal heat management system, controled by their electronics.

3)We test Hyperions adjusted never to reach boiling point of any coolant in use. There is change of phase when using certain melting salts as coolants for high demanding applications that require temperature close to Hyperion's max output (414C): at 60-85C such coolants change phase from solid to liquid having boiling point higher than 1000C.

4) Quality and stress testing protocols on products are more demanding than checking only this. The answer to your question is yes.

5) We will provide such graph and data with the specs sheets of products before any release to the market. Then you can do your math having all the rest of the information you will need to check.

6) Yes, there are more than one calibration charts for each product kept in product support database. These include calibration results of every subsystem or component related with its functionality, stability and safety, not just general calibration on performance.

This is a very professional approach. Either the Defkalion people are lying (along with the greek authorities testing their devices) or the e-cat is a legitimate device. You cannot mismeasure a system of this kind.

 

[kookbreaker]

Cold fusion -- there's a blast from the past. I didn't know anyone believed in this stuff anymore.

Seeing this thread reminds me of my micro-acquaintanceship with the late Eugene Mallove, the so-called Champion of Cold Fusion. For those unfamiliar with Dr. Mallove's work, he was to cold fusion what John Mack was to alien abductions: a highly trained scientist (MIT and Harvard) whose seemingly inexplicable support gave cold fusion claims a veneer of respectability. I first met Dr. Mallove years ago at Astronomy New England, a telescope store he ran. I have to admit, I didn't much like him at first -- I found his sales technique decidedly pushy, with a faint attitude of "Oh, I know you want that telescope mount over there, but anyone who knows anything about astronomy would buy this more expensive one here." (It was more subtle than that of course, but the vibe was definitely there.)

Nonetheless I was a semi-regular customer for a while, until we had a falling out over a telescope sale Dr. Mallove attempted to broker. The owner of the telescope I wanted to buy turned out to be something of a shady character, attempting to change the agreed-upon terms by removing some of the telescope's components, jacking up the price, etc. Finally I had enough and called Dr. Mallove to inform him the deal was off. But rather than offer sympathy, he argued that I should go through with the deal anyway! (I guess he didn't want to lose his commission.) The conversation became rather heated when I indicated I wasn't inclined to follow his advice, and we hung up on less than cordial terms. I never set foot in his store again.

Interesting. What was the name of that store? I remember more than a few shady characters selling telescopes back in my Orion days. These days I am not a blip on the competition's radar since only a portion of my stock is telescopes.

 

[Jimmy42]

Glycol decomposes about 210°C. What efficiency could you get at these temperatures? 10%, maybe 15%? 15 KW of heat going in, 1.5-2 KW electrical and 13 KW as waste heat? Hope somebody need to take lots of showers.

 

[Craig B]

Crawdaddy

From your #1831 above:

Either the Defkalion people are lying (along with the greek authorities testing their devices) or the e-cat is a legitimate device.

I am indeed stating that the Defkalion people are lying; but it isn't necessarily the case that the "Greek authorities" are lying too. As quoted by Horatius in #1783,

The CE marking is required for many products. It states that the product is assessed before being placed on the market and meets EU safety, health and environmental protection requirements. Through this website the European Commission provides economic operators and consumers with information on how the process of affixing the CE marking on a product works.

to which Horatius pertinently adds

Notice this doesn't say anything about it actually doing what they say it will do. They're trumpeting a certification that is largely meaningless to the central question of whether or not their produce is a scam or not.

In any case, it can't be excluded that the Greek government consists of liars, crooks and swindlers. That appears to be the opinion (most plainly and vehemently expressed) of the population of Athens. Who am I to disagree?

 

[TjW]

Crawdaddy

From your #1831 above:

I am indeed stating that the Defkalion people are lying; but it isn't necessarily the case that the "Greek authorities" are lying too. As quoted by Horatius in #1783, to which Horatius pertinently adds
In any case, it can't be excluded that the Greek government consists of liars, crooks and swindlers. That appears to be the opinion (most plainly and vehemently expressed) of the population of Athens. Who am I to disagree?

To be fair to the Greek authorities, you could probably find a fair number of Americans who would express the same opinion of their own government. Or people in Great Britain. Or, just about anywhere, really.

Yep, the CE dodge is just a variation on the patent dodge. They're both completely irrelevant in determining whether it works as described. Still, I suppose it would be good to know that it won't electrocute you or burn your house down or generate too much RF interference.

 

[Stellafane]

Interesting. What was the name of that store? I remember more than a few shady characters selling telescopes back in my Orion days. These days I am not a blip on the competition's radar since only a portion of my stock is telescopes.

The name of the store was literally "Astronomy New England." As I recall they were located in Ashland, MA back in the early 1980's. They used to advertise in Sky & Telescope, which is how I found out about them. The store appeared to be a refurbished basement of someone's private dwelling. But overall it seemed to be a fairly well-stocked and well-connected little store. I think they only lasted a few years; by the time I met Dr. Mallove at the Stellafane convention, he spoke about it in the past tense, and there's barely any mention of it on the web.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think Dr. Mallove himself was dishonest -- just really pushy and interested only in making a buck, even if it meant pissing off the customer. At least that was my impression based on my few dealings with him; I'm sure other customers must have had a more positive experiences. And as I mentioned, when I met him a few years later he seemed to have mellowed considerably.

 

[Crawdaddy]

Craig B

It is true that the greek authorities are not necessarily lying if as people here claim that they will grant CE certification and not verify the device is actually operating as Defkalion claims.

The assumption that the device will not actually be tested is not well founded, and it remains to be seen if this is a valid premise.

Jimmy42

The Defkalion people also mention the use of liquid salt at over 400C. This technology is already in use in many industries including in active thermal solar power for electricity generation at good carnot efficiency.

The use of glycol in these reactors is of importance because it eliminates questions arising from phase changes (such as the wet/dry steam uncertainties). Glycol as a cooling loop fluid is extremely common.

 

[Cuddles]

The Defkalion people also mention the use of liquid salt at over 400C. This technology is already in use in many industries including in active thermal solar power for electricity generation at good carnot efficiency.

The use of glycol in these reactors is of importance because it eliminates questions arising from phase changes (such as the wet/dry steam uncertainties). Glycol as a cooling loop fluid is extremely common.

Which brings us right back to the original problem - evidence. Rossi claimed to have done proper tests proving his device works, and it turns out he still has done no such thing. Defkalion now claim to have done proper tests. Where is the evidence that they actually have? Where is the data to actually back up the claims? Where is the independent analysis to check that they're not faking it or just plain making it up?

The ability to say you've done something is not the same as actually demonstrating that you've done it. Defkalion can make all the claims they like, but we still have no actual evidence of anything.

 

[Craig B]

Crawdaddy

To say, "The Greek authorities testing [the] devices are lying, or the e-cat is a legitimate device" and to say, "The assumption that the device will not actually be tested is not well founded" is to say two very different things.

When, indeed will the device (as such) be tested? Defkalion is remarkably coy about this; and periodically Rossi comes out with statements to the effect that the validity of the e-cat will be evident to its purchasers - sorry, "supplyees" - after it is marketed in "October", and therefore no other tests are required.

 

[Crawdaddy]

Craig b

To say, "The Greek authorities testing [the] devices are lying, or the e-cat is a legitimate device" and to say, "The assumption that the device will not actually be tested is not well founded" is to say two very different things.

This is true. If the greek test the operational capabilities of the device they will either lie about the results or tell the truth. If they do not test the operational capabilities of the device the CE designation will likely reflect this since it will not have a "Eco-design of energy related products" designation.

You are assuming that the tests will not actually test anything related to the device function. I am assuming that they will.

When, indeed will the device (as such) be tested? Defkalion is remarkably coy about this; and periodically Rossi comes out with statements to the effect that the validity of the e-cat will be evident to its purchasers - sorry, "supplyees" - after it is marketed in "October", and therefore no other tests are required.

Defkalion has stated that the testing by the greeks will take place in the first two weeks of July. They have also stated that the greek government will do "operational testing" during this time.

My original comment was admittedly an over reach. It is not an over reach at this point to state that this is no longer a con perpetrated by a single man but now must include a large number of investors. Many, if not all, of the directors of Defkalion, as well as many of the companies employees must now be willing participants in any fraud. Are the directors of Defkalion as untrustworthy as Rossi? Their names are publicly available.