Merged Continuation - 9/11 CT subforum General Discussion Thread

[DeathDart]

You can't figure out 911, it something you will have to do on your own. With Flight 93 Passengers figuring out 911 in minutes, this leaves you in tie for last place with 911 truth. Can you pull ahead and answer you own question using research?

The last information I had on flight 93 is that their 4th best pilot lost control and crashed it. No indications of a struggle in the cockpit. I believe one of the flight recorders survived, showing the maneuver history. Just bad piloting.

 

[DGM]

The last information I had on flight 93 is that their 4th best pilot lost control and crashed it. No indications of a struggle in the cockpit. I believe one of the flight recorders survived, showing the maneuver history. Just bad piloting.

No, struggle OUTSIDE of the cockpit. He didn't want them to get in and took the cowards way out.

 

[Oystein]

You do not support your statements.
War games would not contribute to the confusion past a second. Why?

Because they happen on totally disjoint systems. There is not one bit of war game on a real world system, and there is not a shred of real world on a war game system. If you are in the war game room, you don't get any real world until someone comes in yelling "folks, excercise is off, we got a real world problem".

Not a single air traffic controller who did real world duty got one bit of sims. Not a single military officer who was on real world alert post was bothered with games.

One set of information is a game, the other is real. They are nearly the same.

Would you please explain what you mean by "they are nearly the same"?

Use your own words to describe it. All the reports written after the event would try to hide the confusion since confusion is really considered a weakness in the military. Not a conspiracy, just human nature.

Distill it down to what people would have been thinking. Walk in their shoes.

You ought to do the same.

 

[Oystein]

The last information I had on flight 93 is that their 4th best pilot lost control and crashed it. No indications of a struggle in the cockpit. I believe one of the flight recorders survived, showing the maneuver history. Just bad piloting.

There are indications that the terrorist pilot crashed the plane intentionally to pre-empt the retaking of the cockpit by passengers.

ETA: Why do you respond to beachnut's post 7900, but not DGM's post 7899, which directly and without abuse addressed a question you asked? Is it because you didn't like the answer?

 

[sylvan8798]

I agree that referring to a maneuver as impossible is a poor way to make a point. If the plane did perform the maneuver, it is not impossible.

I believe the usual truther point here is that if the maneuver was impossible, the plane could not have performed it, therefore there was no plane, but rather an accountant-seeking missile fired by a tomahawk. Or something.

 

[Oystein]

I believe the usual truther point here is that if the maneuver was impossible, the plane could not have performed it, therefore there was no plane, but rather an accountant-seeking missile fired by a tomahawk. Or something.

I think there are different story lines spawned from the claim of impossibility:

1. What you say - couldn't have been a 757, must have been something else. Then again, we wouldn't have FDR data from a missile
2. Couldn't be data from a 757, so the FDR data is (badly) faked, 757 really flew a different course
3. Maneuvre is impossible for a bad pilot like Hanjour, so it must have been another, better pilot, or autopilot

 

[Clayton Moore]

I agree that referring to a maneuver as impossible is a poor way to make a point. If the plane did perform the maneuver, it is not impossible.

I said improbable/impossible. Besides, the crux of my point was the novice pilot performing the maneuver.

 

[NoahFence]

By having the wargames occurring at 9-11 it contributed to confusion, and who would want to look like an idiot by scrambling a fighter for an exercise scenario.

Not for nothing, but wouldn't scrambling fighters be part of an exercise?

 

[Oystein]

I said improbable/impossible. Besides, the crux of my point was the novice pilot performing the maneuver.

Have you, a non-pilot, ever tried to fly a plane?
You will find that it isn't very hard to get it to fly where you want it to fly. Boeing designs on purpose such that they generally fly where you push them with the controls.
You will also find that you can't fly the course you're aiming quite as smoothly as an experienced pilot does. Your path will look rather wobbly.
In the end, if you aim to hit the runway, you will succeed, but might crash on the runway, and maybe your course will be off so you skid off the track. But still, you will hit the runway.

And that's exactly what we saw Hanjour do: He managed to push the 757 where he wanted it to go, but on a pretty wobbly path. He barely managed to hit a HUGE target that is much wider than a runway and a few times as high as your plane.

So all as you would expect from an inexperienced pilot.

Shaky, yes. Not only possible, but relatively easy.


If you don't believe me, try to find yourself a flight simulator, and do it yourself. You'll be surprised how easy it is to crash a plane like the 757 into a huge target.

 

[NoahFence]

War games would not contribute to the confusion past a second. Why?

Pretend you're hurried and frazzled for a moment - now say "This is not a drill"

How long did that take?

 

[Oystein]

Not for nothing, but wouldn't scrambling fighters be part of an exercise?

Actually, no. None of the wargames on 9/11 involved any actual NORAD hardware. They'd scramble anything only in the computer.

 

[Oystein]

Pretend you're hurried and frazzled for a moment - now say "This is not a drill"

How long did that take?

Again, this is not necessary: The fighters WERE scrambled, as requested by FAA personel who were not doing any excercises.

Also, you don't have to deny that the military would try to cover up if they were confused. Of course they would try. There's just too little reason to assume that much confusion happend. Fighters were scrambled. Entirely outside of excercises. Period. Where is the confusion?

 

[Mikey T]

The last information I had on flight 93 is that their 4th best pilot lost control and crashed it. No indications of a struggle in the cockpit. I believe one of the flight recorders survived, showing the maneuver history. Just bad piloting.

So the cockpit recordings mean nothing to you? The recording are qutie claear what was transpiring during the last moments of flight 93. The hijacker-pilot Ziad Jarrah stating that he was going to put it down because "When they (the passengers) come, we finish it off", the hijackers saying "Yes, put it in, put it down", the sounds of screaming from passengers attempting to break into the cockpit, one of the hijackers saying he was injured holding back the passengers, Jarrah waiting until the last possible moment before he realized it was not going to be possible to reach his intended target, and Ziad Jarrah yelling "Allāhu Akbar" as he drove the plane down.

These tapes were listened to by many of the victim's families, some who heard their loved ones in the back round, and there has been no debating this topic except by truthers. The plane was intentionally crashed to avoid the attempted reclaiming of the aircraft by the passengers. One of the passengers, 52 year old Donald F. Greene, was a trained pilot so there would have been an excellent chance he could have landed the plane if they were able to take it back.

 

[DeathDart]

Nothing about 9-11 is clear!
Information isn't released until it is forced out.

 

[DeathDart]

country.

Why the General (ISI) ordered Ahmed Omar Saeed Sheikh to wire $100,000 to the 9/11 hijacker Mohamed Atta? (Before 9-11)

The 9-11 Commission report was made to have in internally consistent logic. This is also human nature.
Calling a collection of conflicting information a report is not a good way to get your next job.
In fact the Director of the Commission Philip Zelikow is now making noise that was the victim of a NEOcON plot. Google Philip Zelikow and NeoCons last year or month time interval.

On the 22nd of July 2004, United Press International reported that “On the eve of the publication of its report, the 9/11 Commission was given a stunning document from Pakistan, claiming that Pakistani intelligence officers knew in advance of the 9/11 attacks”. The report also alleged that the Pakistani ISI provided direct financial support to the 9/11 hijackers and was thus fully involved in the plot. Worryingly, the final report of the 9/11 Commission failed to mention this allegation, and barely refers to the ISI agency at all. http://kkak.typepad.com/blog/2011/0...-story-is-the-official-story-unraveling-.html

More importantly, they also asked the Commission if they could find out why the General ordered Ahmed Omar Saeed Sheikh to wire $100,000 to the 9/11 hijacker Mohamed Atta. This may seem like a serious allegation, even speculative – but it is no conspiracy theory. In June 2004, the New York Times reported that Lorie Van Auken, a member of the Family Steering Committee, “was irate” that the final report of the 9/11 Commission did not even mention General Mahmoud Ahmed’s alleged role in the $100,000 wire transfer to Mohammed Atta.

 

[DeathDart]

Sorry bad copy at start
What is missing from the 9-11 report?

The 19 did have external help, why attack the Taliban if they didn't?

Osama Bin Laden was killed in Pakistan.

We succeeded because we didn't tell the Pakistanis that we were going to play Whack a Mole in their country.

 

[Mikey T]

Nothing about 9-11 is clear!
Information isn't released until it is forced out.

Please define "forced out".

 

[TjW]

I said improbable/impossible. Besides, the crux of my point was the novice pilot performing the maneuver.

Hani Hanjour held a commercial pilot rating. To get that piece of paper, he had to meet these standards.

Will you contend that a novice pilot can meet those standards?

 

[DeathDart]

The information on the voice recorder 93 is an example. I don't follow this story all the time. So when was a complete transcript released?

Forced out could mean that they need more information released because their story needs more support. The final NIST NCSTAR report took how long? Looks Like 2009-2010

It seems they kept fully corroborated information secret as long as they could to maintain as much confusion as possible. Neither side would have enough to silence the other but lots of time would pass.

 

[NoahFence]

I don't follow this story all the time.

ya think?