Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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He truly is the King of the Idiots. In fact he's worse even than that, because I suspect he knows exactly what he's doing. The only remaining question is why he is doing it. I think he's mentally ill myself, but that's my personal inexpert opinion only......
 
Hey, have you seen the Harry Rag quotes in the comment sections about how the leaks from the Independent Experts' report were "ominous"?

Here are some excerpts:

"You've completely misunderstood what the independent experts - Stefano Conti and Carla Vecchiotti - said about the knife and bra clasp. They tried to carry out new tests on the knife and bra clasp, but it wasn't possible. They will now will have to examine the procedures used by Dr. Stefanoni and her team and rely on the original results as a baseline. Dr. Renato Biondo, Professor Francesca Torricelli, Luciano Garofano and Professor Giuseppe Novelli have already done this and confirmed Dr. Stefanoni's findings. This is ominous for Knox and Sollecito."

"Judge Hellman asked Stefano Conti and Carla Vecchiotti to evaluate the procedures used by the scientific police and to confirm whether the attribution of the DNA on the knife and bra clasp is correct.

The fact that Stefano Conti and Carla Vecchiotti want to check the minutes related to the seizure of the knife and the testimony of the officers involved indicates that they accept Meredith’s DNA was on the blade and want to rule out any possibility of contamination."


"Stefano Conti and Carla Vecchiotti haven’t uttered a single word in public about Dr. Stefanoni’s forensic investigation and findings. They were unable to perform any DNA tests on the knife and bra clasp. They are now looking at the same data as Dr. Renato Biondo, Professor Francesca Torricelli, Luciano Garofano and Professor Giuseppe Novelli. The fact that these independent experts looked at the data and came to the same conclusions as Dr. Stefanoni is ominous for Knox and Sollecito."

"Hi gecannonphd,

Stefano Conti and Carla Vecchiotti will now have to look at the same data as Dr. Renato Biondo, Professor Francesca Torricelli, Luciano Garofano and Professor Giuseppe Novelli. The fact that these independent experts looked at the data and came to the same conclusions as Dr. Stefanoni is ominous for Knox and Sollecito."


Dr. Renato Biondo, Professor Francesca Torricelli, Luciano Garofano and Professor Giuseppe Novelli have already reviewed the DNA tests and confirmed Dr. Stefanoni’s findings. This is ominous for Knox and Sollecito.

Hi Mojo,

Nick Pisa hasn’t revealed anything new. Stefano Conti and Carla Vecchiotti weren’t able to carry out new tests on the knife and the bra clasp. They will now have to look at the same data as Dr. Renato Biondo, Professor Francesca Torricelli, Luciano Garofano and Professor Giuseppe Novelli. The fact that these independent experts looked at the data and came to the same conclusions as Dr. Stefanoni is ominous for Knox and Sollecito.


Stefano Conti and Carla Vecchiotti are looking at look at the same data as Dr. Renato Biondo, Professor Francesca Torricelli, Luciano Garofano and Professor Giuseppe Novelli. The fact that these independent experts looked at the data and came to the same conclusions as Dr. Stefanoni is ominous for Knox and Sollecito.

HarryRag comments, yeah. If 2 peoples lives were not at stake I'de laugh. I no longer bother to even check that persons sources anymore. That guy has lied so many times on the internet, it borders on being pseudologia fantastica.
 
I'm not usually one to attribute to dishonesty something which could adequately be explained by incompetence - but it does make you wonder, doesn't it...?

I'm amazed by what seem to be the experts' conclusions on the bra clasp: I thought they might find it unreliable due to the delay in collection, but I didn't think they'd call into question the interpretation both of the DNA, and of the Y chromosome results. Hats off to halides1, he's been right every step of the way on this.

Good point. halides1 has endured much criticism and scorn because of it. He nailed this one.
 
The idiots seem to be forgetting that the transport/storage issues regarding the kitchen knife were probably nothing to do with its initial storage medium: a brown paper envelope. I suspect that the problems may have something to do with this: the knife was removed from the sealed envelope in a non-sterile office in the police station, inspected, then placed in a random and totally non-sterile cardboard box that had previously been the packaging for a desk diary given to one of the officers!

The idiocy carries on unabated.......

I have no idea who you are calling an idiot, but you are wrong about the envelope, from Massei report pg 254

"the knife was found by the Scientific Police of Perugia, then transferred to Rome inside a regular envelope (of the type used) for letters, and a cardboard box;"

and page 264:

"He put it in a new paper envelope he had with him and then in a folder. The bag with the knife inside was handed over to Superintendent Gubbiotti when he returned to the Police Headquarters.

...It was with these gloves that he took the knife from the bag and put it inside a box that he sealed with scotch tape and sent with the other evidence to the Forensic Police in Rome, where it underwent analysis
as stated by Dr. Stefanoni."

It was removed from the bag (not the envelope) and put in the cardboard box, nowhere does it state that Gubbiotti removes the knife from the envelope. However the wording on pg 264 is probably not the best, so I can see how it might be confusing for you.
 
Parting Gifts

1)Glad you find anything an idiot says is in any way "oh-so- 'appealing"

2) Your ever so snarky observation about 'my conclusion' says all that remains to be said (or currently discussed here) by this particular 'non sub-set, full fledged' idiot)



Well Pilot, I for one am sorry to see you go. You have a way with words - you are a gifted writer.

I don't usually agree with your words but I do enjoy reading them. Per haps after the gloating has subsided you will see fit to return for further discussion.
 
I for one have lost my faith in the justice system in Italy. Especially Perugia. So I will not gloat or celebrate until AK and RS walk out of prison free. Corruption in the justice system is how they were convicted, so I don't put anything past these judges, lawyers, police, and forensic (experts).
 
I have no idea who you are calling an idiot, but you are wrong about the envelope, from Massei report pg 254

"the knife was found by the Scientific Police of Perugia, then transferred to Rome inside a regular envelope (of the type used) for letters, and a cardboard box;"

and page 264:

"He put it in a new paper envelope he had with him and then in a folder. The bag with the knife inside was handed over to Superintendent Gubbiotti when he returned to the Police Headquarters.

...It was with these gloves that he took the knife from the bag and put it inside a box that he sealed with scotch tape and sent with the other evidence to the Forensic Police in Rome, where it underwent analysis
as stated by Dr. Stefanoni."

It was removed from the bag (not the envelope) and put in the cardboard box, nowhere does it state that Gubbiotti removes the knife from the envelope. However the wording on pg 264 is probably not the best, so I can see how it might be confusing for you.


With reference to the bolded part: why would someone need to be wearing gloves to transfer a sealed paper envelope containing the knife from a bag into this box? If the knife was sealed inside the envelope, then contamination of the knife resulting from handling the envelope would be near-impossible (unless the hands were saturated in some sort of liquid which permeated through the envelope to the knife inside).

I still think that the knife was removed from its packaging inside the police station. There's also a passage in "Darkness Descending" that addresses the transfer at the police station. It too is imprecise in its description of the exact nature of the knife's storage media, but it says (p196): "Agent Giubotti placed it (meaning either the knife itself, or the knife in some sort of other container - it's ambiguous) in the box that had once held a Renato Balestra desk diary, to avoid the blade pricking its carriers. This is where the defence attorneys would claim contamination took place".

Now, I firstly doubt whether the defence would have been claiming potential contamination, if the knife had indeed never left its sealed envelope. And secondly, if the knife were in a brown manilla envelope (usual for this type of evidence, and particularly for items of this size - the envelope would have had to be of A4 size), the blade would already have been adequately protected from pricking anyone in transit.

I think the knife was exposed to the elements in the police station, and that it was then placed into the desk diary box (either naked or replaced in the envelope or put in a different envelope or bag) for onward transit to Rome.
 
Well Pilot, I for one am sorry to see you go. You have a way with words - you are a gifted writer.

I don't usually agree with your words but I do enjoy reading them. Per haps after the gloating has subsided you will see fit to return for further discussion.


That's very.....generous of you. I wouldn't have minded one bit if even half of his input into this thread had concerned a discussion of the case itself, rather than nothing more than critiques(!) of other people's posts. No amount of absurd antagonistic awfully-overblown and anti-hyphenation alliterations can compensate for a stubborn refusal to discuss the actual facts of the case, in my opinion.

But online thesauruses and dictionaries will certainly be getting far fewer page hits over the coming weeks......
 
I for one have lost my faith in the justice system in Italy. Especially Perugia. So I will not gloat or celebrate until AK and RS walk out of prison free. Corruption in the justice system is how they were convicted, so I don't put anything past these judges, lawyers, police, and forensic (experts).


Funnily enough, I haven't - in fact, today's events have served to strengthen my faith in the Italian criminal justice system.

Let's face it: every single country in the world has (to a greater or lesser degree) entrenched problems in its justice system, and every single country in the world also produces miscarriages of justice. The important thing is that there be sufficient safeguards and checks & balances to maximise the chances of injustices being spotted and corrected.

Arguably, then, the anglo-saxon system has an intrinsic disadvantage compared with the Italian system, when it comes to bad verdicts. If the murder had occurred in (say) the UK, and Knox and Sollecito had been found guilty in a criminal trial, they would immediately have been convicted and sentenced. And the only option open to them at that point would be an appeal in which they would have to convince a largely reactionary group of appeal court judges that there was sufficient reason to either overturn the verdict or order a retrial. And, in practice, that's a very hard thing to convince appeal court judges to do: just ask the Birmingham 6, the Guildford 4, Barry George, the Bridgewater 4, etc etc.

By contrast, Knox and Sollecito essentially get a "do-over" in their trial process. It gives their lawyers a chance to figure out where they might have gone wrong in the first trial, and which of the prosecution points they need to counter more successfully. Most crucially of all, of course, is that the entire burden of proof is still with the prosecution to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. And even after the appeal trial, the Supreme Court automatically checks on the correct application of the law: many miscarriages have occurred due to exactly this reason, and it's notoriously difficult to be granted an appeal in the UK or US based on misapplication of the law (as opposed to new or challenged findings of fact).

So, while I think that Massei's court was terribly wrong in the way it assessed and ruled on the first trial, courts can and do get it wrong with significant regularity. It's a fact of life. But the appeal trial gives the defendants (and the court) the chance to make sure that everything is done as well as possible. It seems to me that the current appeal trial of Knox and Sollecito in Judge Hellmann's court is currently doing exactly that.

It's just a shame that the process will take four years to play out. But people convicted after a single bad trial can take decades to have the injustice addressed. In that context, things perhaps don't seem quite so bad in Italy after all.
 
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And we're speaking of the same squad that was surfing on Raffaeles pc...


Ha yeah, I'd forgotten about that part. Unbelievable. I look forward to hearing the pro-guilt rationalisations on that one when it rears its ugly head in the appeal trial.
 
LJ, I agree with the points you make. My point is that I have seen Perugian justice in action and I'm sure they will continue their face saving tactics til the end. You are correct in saying courts get it wrong all over the world. This case just struck a nerve with me. But I have seen terrible trials in the US as well. I want very much to be optimistic about the outcome of this case, but the first trial made me skeptical. Let's hope this is the beginning of the end.
 
The Kercher family lawyer Francesco Maresca said: "I'm astonished by the findings of these experts. We all know the high professional standards of the police forensic teams who conducted the initial investigation.

"These two are inexperienced experts, I cannot accept their findings and we will attempt to clear up their mistakes in court. We remain convinced of Knox and Sollecito's guilt."

I think this comment goes to show how badly out of touch and how seriously damaging to the Kercher family Maresca is. Not only has he blantantly resorted repeatedly to using ad hominem attacks against anyone that dares support RS and AK, to the point where he could be facing his own libel suit, he is so tied up in his own confirmational bias that he can't even see what is right in front of him.

I could understand it from the police or a prosecutor, but form someone that is supposed to be there to represent the victim and help discover the truth, Maresca repeatedly attempted to hide the truth and prevent it from coming out. It's clear he doesn't care about real justice being done in this case, and that reflects back on the very family he should be helping to find the truth, good or bad. Maresca shouldn't have a dog in the fight, his job is to make sure the truth is found, whatever it is, so that the family can learn that truth and move on. Instead all he is after is to lock away RS and AK regardless of what the evidence really says. What a sad little man.
 
A rare acknowledgement of reality from guilter quarters (this person should be congratulated):

The experts' conclusions are devastating. They say that in the following order: (1) there exist no traces of skin cells on the clasp (2) there were mistakes in the interpretation of the electrophoretic traces of autosomal STRs (3) there were mistakes in the interpretation of the Y chromosome (4) the item was not collected and the sampling was not done according to international protocol (5) contamination may have occurred. They conclude that the bra clasp evidence is not reliable.
...
If I were to emit a personal impression of the 3-page conclusion, it would be that between the lines, the new experts are very critical of Stefanoni's procedures. You can almost hear them saying "Oh my God is this what she did?"

Another individual quotes the following excerpt from the full report, from which it emerges that Conti and Vecchiotti acknowledge the presence of DNA other than that of Sollecito and Kercher in the bra clasp profile:

"Si tratta, pertanto, di un profilo genetico derivante da mistura di sostanze
biologiche non meglio identificate (si ricorda che non è stata eseguita alcuna indagine mirata alFevidenziazione delle ipotizzate cellule di sfaldamento quindi l’affermazione è priva di fondamento scientifico) la cui componente maggiore è rappresentata da DNA della vittima e la componente minore è rappresentata da DNA proveniente da più individui (cfr. STRs autosomici) di sesso maschile (cfr. cromosoma Y). un aplotipo Y dei quali corrisponde all’aplotipo Y di Raffaele Sollecito."


"The genetic profile thus derives from a mixture of unidentified biological substances (it will be recalled that no test was performed with a view toward revealing the presence of flaking cells, and so the claim is without scientific basis), whose larger component is represented by the DNA of the victim and whose smaller component is represented by DNA from several individuals (cf. autosomic STRs) of male sex (cf. Y chromosome), of which one of the Y aplotypes corresponds to the Y aplotype of Raffaele Sollecito"
 
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Being there

A friend of mine said "The actual Science of DNA won today!" I agree, and I would like to make one additional observation. Conti and Vecchiotti were able to do their review without having been present at the actual time of testing. This suggests that the data themselves, especially in the form of the electronic data files, tell much of the story. The recording of the collection techniques was also helpful.
 
That's very.....generous of you. I wouldn't have minded one bit if even half of his input into this thread had concerned a discussion of the case itself, rather than nothing more than critiques(!) of other people's posts. No amount of absurd antagonistic awfully-overblown and anti-hyphenation alliterations can compensate for a stubborn refusal to discuss the actual facts of the case, in my opinion.

But online thesauruses and dictionaries will certainly be getting far fewer page hits over the coming weeks......

Maybe Pilot isn't your idea of a worthy opponent but it certainly seems you enjoy sparring with him. There are many on this thread who are frustrated and furious at the way this case has played out. Likewise many of us are elated over today's developments. We should not however allow these emotional swings to result in tactics prevalent elsewhere on the internet lest we become equally as distasteful.
 
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