Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Katody Matrass]

Nobody will remember. It doesn't matter whether he was on the right side for the right reasons, the wrong reasons or no reasons at all. So long as they get off, he should be able to ride a long way on this.

I hope he will not be forgotten. After all of this is over he will still be living there, with a callunia, assault on policemen and what's there charges hanging over him.

 

[billyryan]

Patrizia has her share of responsibility, but it looks like she's going to get scapegoated. I think Perugian cops and magistrate, Massei included, are much more guilty.

I think the report Kathody is not ruling out fraud on behalf of Stefanoni,she did not do it on her own initiative she was pressed to do it by others,the rusting of the bra-clip was not an accident

As regards Massei I wonder are the press in Italy too cowed to ask him if he now thinks he should have allowed the independent DNA examination

 

[komponisto]

We did indeed

So, just out of curiosity, are we saying that the report wasn't leaked?

I don't know whether it was "leaked"; presumably the answer to that depends on whether or not it is legally a public document at this point, which I don't know.

And if it has been provided to the defence and prosecution teams, how long have they had it? I just wonder why it was necessary to include the criminal's testimony (the baby killer one) when, apparently, the defence have forensic evidence of the innocence of knox and the aquittal is all but a done deal.

I don't think it was "necessary". However, the "baby killer" (Alessi) is or was incarcerated with Guede and claims that Guede told him Knox and Sollecito were innocent. It would be a dereliction of duty for the defense not to try to have this testimony introduced.

Aviello I would have dispensed with, since he doesn't have any connection to Guede (who we know committed the crime).

Why should the defense put all their eggs into a single basket? Obviously, both sides want to try to introduce every possible element in their favor.

 

[Katody Matrass]

So, just out of curiosity, are we saying that the report wasn't leaked?

It has been deposited by professor Conti today, so it's public, not a leak. See the appeal court official stamp.

And if it has been provided to the defence and prosecution teams, how long have they had it?

See above.

 

[Ampulla of Vater]

I hope he will not be forgotten. After all of this is over he will still be living there, with a callunia, assault on policemen and what's there charges hanging over him.

He has been instrumental in getting the case for innocence this far. He will not be forgotten, at least not by me. I have donated substantially to help him with legal expenses. I am sure he will not be forgotten by the families of the accused either.

It is my belief that if this whole thing falls apart Frank's case will be helped tremendously. At that point it becomes clear he was simply writing the truth.

 

[Katody Matrass]

I just wonder why it was necessary to include the criminal's testimony (the baby killer one) when, apparently, the defence have forensic evidence of the innocence of knox and the aquittal is all but a done deal.

The witnesses were requested in appeal motions from last year. It was Hellman's, not the defence's decision to hear them just now.

 

[pilot padron]

Isn't everyone entitled to their day in Court ??

Katody Matrass,

I think that this is exactly right. the problem started with involving the PM too early in the investigation (which is typical for Italy, IIUC). The willingness of the cops to bend (or break) the rules about suspects and lawyers is also a huge part of this fiasco. Massei acted as a facilitator for the prosecution, not an impartial referee. Plenty of blame to go around.

Although I completely understand how today's 'neutral at best?' news would prompt the complete condemnations of everything Italian by most of today's posts on this Board.
That may just be an understandable but none the less inordinate and inappropriate reaction to *very incomplete* information; there is one thing I do not understand.

Posters here expended 50,000+ posts whining about Knox and Sollecito were prematurely considered guilty....without a complete opportunity to 'have their day in Court. etc..

Remember the scores of pages about how premature and despicable the Police Car Parade, and the Gobbie Wall of shame was ??

Yet surely since those Italian Officials so slurred here today are going to soon have their day in Court to include a full examination of the approximately 140+ pages not leaked to here (yet) and their own 'rest of the story' as witnesses
Therefore, is not the premature leap to universal unequivocal condemnation here today exactly what most here spent 50,000+ arguments wailing was so illogical and unfair ???

Are not most here today doing exactly what most here spent so many electrons saying how wrong the ILE were in doing same ???

 

[LondonJohn]

Although I completely understand how today's 'neutral at best?' news would prompt the complete condemnations of everything Italian by most of today's posts on this Board that may just be an understandable but none the less inordinate and inappropriate reaction to *very incomplete* information; there is one thing I do not understand.

Posters here expended 50,000+ posts whining about Knox and Sollecito were prematurely considered guilty....without a complete opportunity to 'have their day in Court. etc..

Remember the scores of pages about how premature and despicable the Police Car Parade, and the Gobbie Wall of shame was ??

Yet surely since those Italian Officials so slurred here today are going to soon to have their day in Court to include a full examination of the approximately 140+ pages not leaked to here (yet) and their own 'rest of the story' as witnesses
Therefore, is not the premature leap to universal unequivocal condemnation here today exactly what most here spent 50,000+ arguments wailing was so illogical and unfair ???

Are not most here today doing exactly what most here spent so many electrons saying how wrong the ILE were in doing same ???

"Gobbie" (Maybe he'll get a job one day at the Court of Cessation )

Have you got any commentary to make about the actual case? Or are you going to restrict yourself to commenting on the commentators, without even attempting to add anything about the case by way of rebuttal?

What evidence do you have that Knox and Sollecito are guilty beyond a reasonable doubt of participation in the murder of Meredith Kercher?

 

[Ampulla of Vater]

Although I completely understand how today's 'neutral at best?' news would prompt the complete condemnations of everything Italian by most of today's posts on this Board that may just be an understandable but none the less inordinate and inappropriate reaction to *very incomplete* information; there is one thing I do not understand.

Posters here expended 50,000+ posts whining about Knox and Sollecito were prematurely considered guilty....without a complete opportunity to 'have their day in Court. etc..

Remember the scores of pages about how premature and despicable the Police Car Parade, and the Gobbie Wall of shame was ??

Yet surely since those Italian Officials so slurred here today are going to soon to have their day in Court to include a full examination of the approximately 140+ pages not leaked to here (yet) and their own 'rest of the story' as witnesses
Therefore, is not the premature leap to universal unequivocal condemnation here today exactly what most here spent 50,000+ arguments wailing was so illogical and unfair ???

Are not most here today doing exactly what most here spent so many electrons saying how wrong the ILE were in doing same ???

Don't you think internet opinions and posts are different than:

1) Hanging a picture of an accused among pictures of convicted

2) Parading accused persons all through the winding streets with sirens blaring and lights flashing

3) Declaring "Case Closed" before a trial or before a detailed investigation

Surely you cannot equate the actions of ILE w.r.t. this case to opinions and posts written on this thread

???

 

[LondonJohn]

Ugh. That headline makes it sound like a technicality.

Sky News has not been making a good impression recently...

Oh I agree.

But I think that a seasoned hack such as Pisa is very well aware that immediate 180-degree shifts in viewpoint look suspicious. So I'd guess that he's going for the "slow, smooth reversal" strategy, and hope that nobody will notice.

 

[HumanityBlues]

I don't think that reading the entire report will give different conclusion.
Maresca has surely read it, his reaction tells all.

Care to elaborate? I can't really understand the google translation.

 

[katy_did]

I think the report Kathody is not ruling out fraud on behalf of Stefanoni,she did not do it on her own initiative she was pressed to do it by others,the rusting of the bra-clip was not an accident

As regards Massei I wonder are the press in Italy too cowed to ask him if he now thinks he should have allowed the independent DNA examination

I'm not usually one to attribute to dishonesty something which could adequately be explained by incompetence - but it does make you wonder, doesn't it...?

I'm amazed by what seem to be the experts' conclusions on the bra clasp: I thought they might find it unreliable due to the delay in collection, but I didn't think they'd call into question the interpretation both of the DNA, and of the Y chromosome results. Hats off to halides1, he's been right every step of the way on this.

 

[komponisto]

Although I completely understand how today's 'neutral at best?' news would prompt the complete condemnations of everything Italian by most of today's posts on this Board that may just be an understandable but none the less inordinate and inappropriate reaction to *very incomplete* information; there is one thing I do not understand.

Posters here expended 50,000+ posts whining about Knox and Sollecito were prematurely considered guilty....without a complete opportunity to 'have their day in Court. etc..

Remember the scores of pages about how premature and despicable the Police Car Parade, and the Gobbie Wall of shame was ??

Yet surely since those Italian Officials so slurred here today are going to soon to have their day in Court to include a full examination of the approximately 140+ pages not leaked to here (yet) and their own 'rest of the story' as witnesses
Therefore, is not the premature leap to universal unequivocal condemnation here today exactly what most here spent 50,000+ arguments wailing was so illogical and unfair ???

Are not most here today doing exactly what most here spent so many electrons saying how wrong the ILE were in doing same ???

It doesn't matter whether people here are "doing the same thing as the ILE" or whoever else. Particles of DNA do not look around to see which side of the argument is the most virtuous before deciding whether or not to attach themselves to a bra clasp or knife. If you want to argue that the conclusion we're jumping to is premature, you have to do better than point out that we think ILE jumped to a premature conclusion 3+1/2 years ago.

Maybe for a short time after Knox and Sollecito's arrest, it was reasonable to assume they were guilty. However, before too long, information emerged that should have undermined confidence in that conclusion. Supporters could actually point to that information and say "here is why we think there is doubt about guilt". (And there was soon plenty of it.)

That's what you have to do to argue that there should be doubt about the significance of this report. No one can exempt you from rationality's laws.

Again, the words in the report were "erroneous interpretation". The default position is on our side.

 

[Ampulla of Vater]

Care to elaborate? I can't really understand the google translation.

Basically he claims the professionalism and the length of experience of the original forensic experts is better than the experts assigned to review the testing and that he originally didn't even discuss the DNA evidence because there is so much other evidence demonstrating guilt.

 

[HumanityBlues]

Basically he claims the professionalism and the length of experience of the original forensic experts is better than the experts assigned to review the testing and that he originally didn't even discuss the DNA evidence because there is so much other evidence demonstrating guilt.

Well, I'm willing to bet Hellman is probably going to trust his own experts first.

 

[komponisto]

Care to elaborate? I can't really understand the google translation.

Translation of Maresca's comments quoted above:

KERCHER LAWYER: WE'RE SURPRISED - "We were surprised by the categorical nature of the opinions of these [outside] experts", said Francesco Maresca, who together with his colleague Serena Perna represents the Kercher family. "Knowing the long experience of all the Scientific Police personnel and the level of highest professionalism of the expert witnesses who testified at the first-level trial", he added, "we think that completely inexperienced experts are not in a position to be so drastic -- as we will explain to the Corte d'Assise d'Appello. I myself discussed the case at the first level without going into the scientific aspects of the question because there's quite a lot of other evidence that shows the two defendants are guilty", concluded Maresca.

 

[LondonJohn]

Care to elaborate? I can't really understand the google translation.

My translation of the paragraph mentioning Maresca:

KERCHER'S LAWYER: WE ARE SURPRISED - "We were surprised at the categorical nature of the assessments of these experts," said lawyer Francesco Maresca, who together with colleague Serena Perna represents the Kercher family. "Knowing the long experience of all those involved in the police forensic service, and the high level of professionalism of the consultants who were heard in the first trial," - he added - "we think it's not possible for experts with total inexperience to hold such drastic views. We will clarify matters before the Court of Appeal. In the first trial, I had a discussion without talking about the scientific aspects of the case, because there is a lot of other evidence that prove the guilt of both defendants", the lawyer concluded.

ETA: I see two of us posted translations pretty simultaneously! Fortunately they are both similar to each other

 

[HumanityBlues]

Translation of Maresca's comments quoted above:

I'm sure Hellman will appreciate this inference that the experts were inexperienced, being that he appointed them himself. Good move.....

 

[Chris_Halkides]

publication record

Basically he claims the professionalism and the length of experience of the original forensic experts is better than the experts assigned to review the testing and that he originally didn't even discuss the DNA evidence because there is so much other evidence demonstrating guilt.

PDiGirolamo,

I have a very passing familiarity with Dr. Vecchiotti's work, but what I can say is that she contributes to the scientific literature in her field. I found seven publications without trying all that hard. For Mr. Maresca to imply that Dr. Stefanoni (whose publication record is scant at best) is more qualified is astonishing.

 

[LondonJohn]

PDiGirolamo,

I have a very passing familiarity with Dr. Vecchiotti's work, but what I can say is that she contributes to the scientific literature in her field. I found seven publications without trying all that hard. For Mr. Maresca to imply that Dr. Stefanoni (whose publication record is scant at best) is more qualified is astonishing.

Maresca's in real danger of making a complete fool of himself. He needs to step back and consider what he's actually doing, and whose interests he's being paid to represent.