Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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yes. Funny slip, no?


The reasoning one can take or leave. Perhaps some people go with it.


Most of the reasons for peoples beliefs on the case have been debated to death. The way you asked the question just seemed to me to bit a bit rhetorical, perhaps I was wrong again. I don't think people should be compelled to debate the same issues over and over.



Fair do's. I agree with what you're saying, and why. I'd still like people to be able to outline why they still think Knox and Sollecito are definitely guilty beyond a reasonable doubt - mostly because I can't think of any such reasons myself.

But thank god for people with whom one can have a reasonable conversation, even if we differ on our views of the case....
 
Rolfe said:
I think it's extremely unlikely that Amanda's Meredith's stomach would not have started to pass food along to her duodenum by 10pm, never mind later. You have to remember the specific circumstances. Amanda Meredith was a healthy young woman with no reason to suspect delayed intestinal transit. Immediately after her meal she sat down to watch a film, which is very conducive to uninterrupted digestion. If she'd gone out jogging it might have been a different matter.

Nine o'clock is perfectly reasonable, but much more than that and it starts to become special pleading.


What meal start time is this based on ?

5.30, 6.00 6.30 or 7.00. or any other time of your choosing ?

If this is science as opposed to 'sciency' or 'special pleading' the highlighted statement is surely based on a particular meal start time.
[I wont bother linking to earlier posts of yours that that seem to contradict this 'certainty' but can do so if required]

It's not like you picked a time and worked backwards I hope.

Contra you earlier response to jhunter* their (the 2 white suspects whose participation in this crime would be an extraordinary event apparently ) only established alibi ends at 9.10.

Just so you don't think I am trying to trick you - I'll point this out up front.

* I was only joking about this posters dog earlier - I have no strong feelings either way :).
I'm sure to know her ? is to love her but with pets never mind convicted murderers (or even suspects) I am loathe to make (extraordinary) judgments over the internet based on appearances.
I prefer to go with the evidence as opposed to these kind of people don't commit crimes- 'those' do. I had hoped we had left that behind us.


I ignored this post at the time because of its flippant tone, and avoidance of addressing the issue in favour of irrelevant and off-topic embroidery. However, since you specifically went back and picked it out as "unanswered", then I'll answer it.

I was basing the discussion on a start time of the meal somewhere between six and 6.30. Even 6.30 gives two-and-a-half hours before the 9 o'clock time I specified as perfectly reasonable for the duodenum still to be empty, but in fact many people would indeed have food beyond the stomach by then. The longer you go after that the less likely it gets that nothing has passed on. By the time you get to ten o'clock, I repeat my statement that it would be extremely unlikely for the duodenum still to be empty, even of the meal didn't start until the later end of the window indicated.

Add to that the fact that there's no evidence of Meredith having done anything after she returned home - not even taken off her jacket or turned on the heating. She didn't ring her mother.

So what time do you think Meredith died, and on what do you base that assessment? A window will do, nobody is expecting an answer to the precise minute.

Rolfe.
 
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I don't think you understand what the report apparently says about the bra clasp. You might benefit from reading the English translations again (hint: the report apparently states not only that the match to Sollecito was likely erroneous*, but also that there was ample scope for contamination).

* DNA matching is not always as exact a science as many people believe (or would like to believe). There is often plenty of scope for interpretation (and misinterpretation) of the source data. This appears to have happened in this instance, according to Conti's/Vecchiotto's report.


Is not difficult to understand the summary.


Precisely - that point is made in the summary.
The court have yet to accept it and toss the bra clasp completely.They may on that basis or on the basis of possible contamination or a combination of both.

As I said we shall see.

If they do then then RS has a fighting chance obviously.
But the rest of the case has to be disposed of.

I wouldn't throw away the files and cake recipes just yet.
 
Is not difficult to understand the summary.


Precisely - that point is made in the summary.
The court have yet to accept it and toss the bra clasp completely.They may on that basis or on the basis of possible contamination or a combination of both.

As I said we shall see.

If they do then then RS has a fighting chance obviously.
But the rest of the case has to be disposed of.

I wouldn't throw away the files and cake recipes just yet.

I agree with you Platonov. I expect Mignini and Maresca to completely destroy the Independent Experts that Hellman appointed.
 
I'll bear that in mind when you open an internet forum and set up the rules. In the meantime........

Hi, lionking!

What do you think about the recent developements?

Was there a vast conspiracy of Perugian judiciary to accept uncritically the forensic results that are now called unreliable and erroneous by court appointed experts?

Or maybe there's a conspiracy between those experts and the American group of scientists secretly founded by Gogerty-Marriot PR juggernaut to discredit Polizia Scientifica?


Was Stefanoni conspiring to produce those erroneous, unreliable results?

Or is she simply incompetent?
 
Normally on the JREF a thread is supposed to be defined by the original post. Beyond that I don't see that the thread has any purpose.


I don't pretend that this thread has any "purpose" as such - if by that we mean "wider purpose". But by the same token, not a single one of the other threads in this forum has any "purpose", and neither (for example) does any discussion about politics next to the water cooler in the office, or any pub debate about whether we should have troops in Afghanistan.

But that doesn't invalidate such discussions and debates. The word I used in my original post was "objective" rather than "purpose". If there is no objective to an internet forum thread, then we might just as well use this piece of internet space to swap football stories or discuss our favourite type of breakfast cereal.

However, this is a thread on an internet forum which is titled "Discussion of the Amanda Knox case" - it's therefore not irrational or unreasonable to assume that people would post here only if they were interested in discussing the case. And if they are interested in discussing the case, then they are either general information-seekers asking questions of clarification (which is fine of course), or they are stating an opinion of their own about the case. And if they have an opinion, then almost by definition they have an opinion on the guilt (or non-guilt) of the defendants.
 
Fair do's. I agree with what you're saying, and why. I'd still like people to be able to outline why they still think Knox and Sollecito are definitely guilty beyond a reasonable doubt - mostly because I can't think of any such reasons myself.
I think a lot of the time people look at the same evidence and see different things. It's probably not a central plank in anybodies reasoning, but look at the interrogation. The same incident is evidence for some people of the wickedness of the police, and evidence for others that Amanda and Raffaele told the authorities a bunch of crap during a murder investigation. That's probably one of the more striking examples, but I don't think it takes too many changes to make things sum up very differently.

Back in the day the interrogation featured heavily in my thinking. Everything else took so much work to feel like I had sufficient knowledge to form an independent opinion of. There was a while I was pretty knowledgable about the knife, but I still didn't feel sure either way. I never had enough time to look into any other topic in enough detail to confidently hold a view on it. That's about as close to an answer to your challenge as I can think of.

Really though the interesting evidence and claims seem to be coming from you guys at the moment. If the computer records or stomach contents or DNA stuff pans out the case is all but over. I don't see the point of debating the bathmat again unless that stuff evaporates.
 
I'm not usually one to attribute to dishonesty something which could adequately be explained by incompetence - but it does make you wonder, doesn't it...?

I'm amazed by what seem to be the experts' conclusions on the bra clasp: I thought they might find it unreliable due to the delay in collection, but I didn't think they'd call into question the interpretation both of the DNA, and of the Y chromosome results. Hats off to halides1, he's been right every step of the way on this.

Indeed.

One might almost see a trend here, of the combined JREF forum thread pro-innocence group being systematically vindicated in almost all of our major scientific and logical conclusions.

We figured out Curatolo's testimony had to be wrong, and it turned out we were right.

We figured out the bra clasp and knife DNA evidence was suspect, and it turned out we were right.

We figured out the right time of death, and unless Rolfe is uncharacteristically totally mistaken it's turned out we were right.

It's almost as if we live in a lawful universe where science and rationality can build a map that predicts the territory, and that unlike certain other on-line communities we have the necessary knowledge and skills to read the map when we put our mind to it. ;)
 
Bonus

Seems to be good news today for Amanda Knox, the boyfriend, as well as for the reputation of the Italian system of justice.

Good news also for the readability of this thread, if those commentators who've contributed nothing to it but incessant fatuity are in the process of making yet another of their ostentatious exits into self-imposed exile and martyrdom.

Despite what they say, they'll be back soon enough, of course. But at least, for a while, there will be less clutter here to scroll past.
 
I am genuinely glad the DNA will likely be thrown out and Amanda and Raffaele almost certainly released. I was on the fence a long time and leaning toward guilt but the TOD issue was very convincing to me, especially once Rolfe weighed in as well. The other issues were almost irrelevant due to the multitude of explanations to their existence, despite their intriguing natures. The DNA was however the only other strong indicator and I really hope now the truth will set them free. I mean that.

I think Rudy should be strung up by the proverbials for not using his time in court to come clean and exonerate them. I hope he gets time added to his sentence for perjury.

I'd like to echo the congratulations of other posters - changing one's mind in the face of the evidence is a rare and precious skill. Few have it, and you've proved that you are one of them. I dip my hat to you.
 
But that doesn't invalidate such discussions and debates. The word I used in my original post was "objective" rather than "purpose". If there is no objective to an internet forum thread, then we might just as well use this piece of internet space to swap football stories or discuss our favourite type of breakfast cereal.
On more normal threads things do have to be kicked back towards the OP periodically.

And if they have an opinion, then almost by definition they have an opinion on the guilt (or non-guilt) of the defendants.
Often this is the case, but I wish it wasn't. There are plenty of other things to have opinions about in relation to the case. I guess I'm quibbling with you because I've seen people try to restrict what people are allowed to argue/believe/post based on their definition of what this thread is about - "it's about legal guilt or innocence, hence you have to be arguing about for guilt beyond reasonable doubt or you believe in innocence and therefore have nothing to prove".

Thinking about it though. This thread does seem to have some kind of objective of its own, I just wish it didn't. A few other threads have been started on subtopics, but somehow they always seem to want to turn themselves into this thread.
 
Interesting NYT article on today's events:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/30/world/europe/30knox.html?_r=1

Of perhaps most interest is the last two paragraphs of the article, where an unnamed prosecutor gets to have his/her say:
Other accusers of Ms. Knox and Mr. Sollecito said that the DNA was just one piece of evidence in the case that they built against them, based on various testimonies, their lack of an alibi and what prosecutors say is other damning physical evidence, which has not been reviewed. During one interrogation, too, Ms. Knox allowed that she was in the house while Ms. Kercher was murdered, an admission she later retracted.

“The first jury decided looking at a wide range of evidence, the DNA was only part of it,” said one prosecutor, who was not authorized to speak publicly about the case. “Everything else still stands.”

Let's examine these paragraphs for a second:

"...just one piece of evidence in the case that they built against them, based on various testimonies...". Now, I'm looking specifically at the "various testimonies" part, and supposing that this is referring chiefly to Curatolo, Quintavalle and Capezzali. So we'll see how these "various testimonies" perform in the appeal.

"...their lack of an alibi...". This is an astonishing statement for a prosecutor to make. (S)he appears to be asserting that a lack of an alibi can count positively towards proof of guilt!

"...and what prosecutors say is other damning physical evidence, which has not been reviewed.". This is a classic fallacy - all the evidence will be reviewed and re-argued in the appeal trial. This phrase is clearly meant to suggest that all the interpretation of the rest of the evidence stands as in the first trial - but of course that's total nonsense. And, in any case, Hellmann is still at liberty to request additional new evidence and/or testimony.

"During one interrogation, too, Ms. Knox allowed that she was in the house while Ms. Kercher was murdered, an admission she later retracted.". This is almost totally irrelevant to the trial process. The Italian Supreme Court already ruled (correctly) that Knox's statements from 1.45am and 5.45am were inadmissible against her, owing to her lack of legal counsel and a failure to properly record the statements. All that can be used is the "memoriale" from the following morning, in which Knox clearly retracts any certainty attached to her earlier statements, and exhibits severe confusion.

"“The first jury decided looking at a wide range of evidence, the DNA was only part of it,” said one prosecutor, who was not authorized to speak publicly about the case. “Everything else still stands.”"
. Well, this one presents a right conundrum. Here's a prosecutor who's apparently not authorised to speak publicly about the case, speaking publicly about the case! I trust that the lead prosecutor in the appeal trial (Costagliola) will be seeking to find out which of the team disregarded orders not to speak to the media - unless it was him, of course.......
 
Interesting NYT article on today's events:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/30/world/europe/30knox.html?_r=1

Of perhaps most interest is the last two paragraphs of the article, where an unnamed prosecutor gets to have his/her say:


Let's examine these paragraphs for a second:

"...just one piece of evidence in the case that they built against them, based on various testimonies...". Now, I'm looking specifically at the "various testimonies" part, and supposing that this is referring chiefly to Curatolo, Quintavalle and Capezzali. So we'll see how these "various testimonies" perform in the appeal.

"...their lack of an alibi...". This is an astonishing statement for a prosecutor to make. (S)he appears to be asserting that a lack of an alibi can count positively towards proof of guilt!

"...and what prosecutors say is other damning physical evidence, which has not been reviewed.". This is a classic fallacy - all the evidence will be reviewed and re-argued in the appeal trial. This phrase is clearly meant to suggest that all the interpretation of the rest of the evidence stands as in the first trial - but of course that's total nonsense. And, in any case, Hellmann is still at liberty to request additional new evidence and/or testimony.

"During one interrogation, too, Ms. Knox allowed that she was in the house while Ms. Kercher was murdered, an admission she later retracted.". This is almost totally irrelevant to the trial process. The Italian Supreme Court already ruled (correctly) that Knox's statements from 1.45am and 5.45am were inadmissible against her, owing to her lack of legal counsel and a failure to properly record the statements. All that can be used is the "memoriale" from the following morning, in which Knox clearly retracts any certainty attached to her earlier statements, and exhibits severe confusion.

"“The first jury decided looking at a wide range of evidence, the DNA was only part of it,” said one prosecutor, who was not authorized to speak publicly about the case. “Everything else still stands.”"
. Well, this one presents a right conundrum. Here's a prosecutor who's apparently not authorised to speak publicly about the case, speaking publicly about the case! I trust that the lead prosecutor in the appeal trial (Costagliola) will be seeking to find out which of the team disregarded orders not to speak to the media - unless it was him, of course.......

The prosecutor talking I suspect is Maresca
 
The idiots seem to be forgetting that the transport/storage issues regarding the kitchen knife were probably nothing to do with its initial storage medium: a brown paper envelope. I suspect that the problems may have something to do with this: the knife was removed from the sealed envelope in a non-sterile office in the police station, inspected, then placed in a random and totally non-sterile cardboard box that had previously been the packaging for a desk diary given to one of the officers!

The idiocy carries on unabated.......
 
The prosecutor talking I suspect is Maresca


Even Maresca wouldn't describe himself as a prosecutor! And anyhow, he's quoted further up the article.

If I were a betting man, I'd put a little bit of money on the prosecutor in question having the initials GM. It would be doubly interesting if he's now been formally told not to speak publicly about the case (as per the NYT article), but is carrying on doing so regardless. Fun times ahead!
 
What they gonna destroy? Mignini and Maresca are experts in their field?

Hey, have you seen the Harry Rag quotes in the comment sections about how the leaks from the Independent Experts' report were "ominous"?

Here are some excerpts:

"You've completely misunderstood what the independent experts - Stefano Conti and Carla Vecchiotti - said about the knife and bra clasp. They tried to carry out new tests on the knife and bra clasp, but it wasn't possible. They will now will have to examine the procedures used by Dr. Stefanoni and her team and rely on the original results as a baseline. Dr. Renato Biondo, Professor Francesca Torricelli, Luciano Garofano and Professor Giuseppe Novelli have already done this and confirmed Dr. Stefanoni's findings. This is ominous for Knox and Sollecito."

"Judge Hellman asked Stefano Conti and Carla Vecchiotti to evaluate the procedures used by the scientific police and to confirm whether the attribution of the DNA on the knife and bra clasp is correct.

The fact that Stefano Conti and Carla Vecchiotti want to check the minutes related to the seizure of the knife and the testimony of the officers involved indicates that they accept Meredith’s DNA was on the blade and want to rule out any possibility of contamination."


"Stefano Conti and Carla Vecchiotti haven’t uttered a single word in public about Dr. Stefanoni’s forensic investigation and findings. They were unable to perform any DNA tests on the knife and bra clasp. They are now looking at the same data as Dr. Renato Biondo, Professor Francesca Torricelli, Luciano Garofano and Professor Giuseppe Novelli. The fact that these independent experts looked at the data and came to the same conclusions as Dr. Stefanoni is ominous for Knox and Sollecito."

"Hi gecannonphd,

Stefano Conti and Carla Vecchiotti will now have to look at the same data as Dr. Renato Biondo, Professor Francesca Torricelli, Luciano Garofano and Professor Giuseppe Novelli. The fact that these independent experts looked at the data and came to the same conclusions as Dr. Stefanoni is ominous for Knox and Sollecito."


Dr. Renato Biondo, Professor Francesca Torricelli, Luciano Garofano and Professor Giuseppe Novelli have already reviewed the DNA tests and confirmed Dr. Stefanoni’s findings. This is ominous for Knox and Sollecito.

Hi Mojo,

Nick Pisa hasn’t revealed anything new. Stefano Conti and Carla Vecchiotti weren’t able to carry out new tests on the knife and the bra clasp. They will now have to look at the same data as Dr. Renato Biondo, Professor Francesca Torricelli, Luciano Garofano and Professor Giuseppe Novelli. The fact that these independent experts looked at the data and came to the same conclusions as Dr. Stefanoni is ominous for Knox and Sollecito.


Stefano Conti and Carla Vecchiotti are looking at look at the same data as Dr. Renato Biondo, Professor Francesca Torricelli, Luciano Garofano and Professor Giuseppe Novelli. The fact that these independent experts looked at the data and came to the same conclusions as Dr. Stefanoni is ominous for Knox and Sollecito.
 
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