Gage: Hell No I Ain't Reading Mackey's White Paper

You know, I'm not much of a Gage fan, but I have to be honest about this one. I respect Mackey and I don't want anything I say now to be taken as an insult to his abilities or even the content of his 'white paper'. However, if I want to understand what happened at the WTC, I would not refer to Mackey's paper. Why? Because he is not a structural engineer. I'm sure (like me) he had to take the strength of materials classes and engineering graphics classes common to the disciplines, but I don't consider myself qualified to comment on structural dynamics in the case of the WTC (or Pentagon for that matter). If I want to know about the WTC, I'll refer to the NIST and for the Pentagon the PBPR. I'm really not qualified to comment on their work, so I don't.

So I see where Gage is coming from on this. Why should he read Mackey's paper?
 
You know, I'm not much of a Gage fan, but I have to be honest about this one. I respect Mackey and I don't want anything I say now to be taken as an insult to his abilities or even the content of his 'white paper'. However, if I want to understand what happened at the WTC, I would not refer to Mackey's paper. Why? Because he is not a structural engineer. I'm sure (like me) he had to take the strength of materials classes and engineering graphics classes common to the disciplines, but I don't consider myself qualified to comment on structural dynamics in the case of the WTC (or Pentagon for that matter). If I want to know about the WTC, I'll refer to the NIST and for the Pentagon the PBPR. I'm really not qualified to comment on their work, so I don't.

So I see where Gage is coming from on this. Why should he read Mackey's paper?
Representing the worst in Management...
Sorry, guy--but the Physics of joints, sections, and materials do NOT change simply because they are used in a building instead of a spacecraft, automobile, aircraft, or truck. A good analyst can evaluate any of these structures, based on construction methods and materials, if he takes the time to learn the load paths and constraints/restraints (as in Boundary conditions)
Logic Failure.
 
Is there some reason Ryan Mackey's essay is being called a "White Paper"?

Well, Ryan originally tried to write it on corrugated cardboard, knowing Slicky's affinity for that material, but it was just too bulky and "Brown Cardboard", while obviously an absolutely perfect material for demonstrating high rise construction, just didn't have much public relations zing, ya know?
 
Representing the worst in Management...
Sorry, guy--but the Physics of joints, sections, and materials do NOT change simply because they are used in a building instead of a spacecraft, automobile, aircraft, or truck. A good analyst can evaluate any of these structures, based on construction methods and materials, if he takes the time to learn the load paths and constraints/restraints (as in Boundary conditions)
Logic Failure.

Suit yourself. But I don't think I'll commission a 'rocket scientist' to build a house for me.
 
Suit yourself. But I don't think I'll commission a 'rocket scientist' to build a house for me.
I agree. I also don't think I would hire an Architect that needed a professor of theology to show him the "obvious signs of controlled demolition".

:rolleyes:
 
Why should he read Mackey's paper?

I gotta disagree with you there, John. He shouldn't read Mackey's paper because Ryan is an engineer or some supposed "debunking" authority. He should read it because it's a good summary of the outright misrepresentations and mistakes made in Gage's claims. Those stand independent of the author. Gage rejecting Ryan's work would be like someone rejecting a letter saying why the sun does not rise in the West because the author was not specifically an astronomer: It doesn't matter if a dogcatcher wrote it, the value is in the reasoning and evidence behind the rebuttal.

Furthermore, I think you're giving Gage too much credit. He runs from fact. I don't believe he's dismissing Ryan's paper because Ryan's not a structural engineer. If I believed that, I'd at least have some sympathy for the opinion, as wrong as I'd say it is to think that way. Rather, I think he's actually hiding from it. He's more than willing to take on someone face-to-face, as shown by his appearance on Hardfire with Gravy, but he's not willing to let his claims withstand scrutiny in detail in a forum where there's no time pressure and proper attention to details can be given. It's one thing to be able to make a few minutes worth of claims in a forum where the other side is only limited to the same number of minutes; in that case, the fact that his claims fail in the details can be obscured simply because of the time pressure. It's a whole other thing to let his claims suffer an actual point-by-point rebuttal in detail.

I've said it before: A conspiracy peddler can rattle off multiple claims in few seconds: Free fall, molten steel, demolitions heard, etc. And a rational rebuttal to any single one of them would take more time than all the conspiratorial claims needed in total. This, I believe, is the reason some conspiracy peddlers are so eager for face-to-face debate: Their claims appear more legitimate for the simple reason that it takes more verbiage to explain why a claim is wrong than to make the claim to begin with. Ryan's paper, on the other hand, is anathema to that sort of mindset because it does deal with the claims in detail. If Gage wants a serious consideration of his claims, then Ryan's paper is the most serious one to date. And for that reason alone, ignoring all else, it's hypocritical of him to ignore the work.
 
You know, I'm not much of a Gage fan, but I have to be honest about this one. I respect Mackey and I don't want anything I say now to be taken as an insult to his abilities or even the content of his 'white paper'. However, if I want to understand what happened at the WTC, I would not refer to Mackey's paper. Why? Because he is not a structural engineer. I'm sure (like me) he had to take the strength of materials classes and engineering graphics classes common to the disciplines, but I don't consider myself qualified to comment on structural dynamics in the case of the WTC (or Pentagon for that matter). If I want to know about the WTC, I'll refer to the NIST and for the Pentagon the PBPR. I'm really not qualified to comment on their work, so I don't.

So I see where Gage is coming from on this. Why should he read Mackey's paper?

We've been through this numerous times. If Einstein plopped in here with a post that the towers fell because little pink marshmallows were used to weld the joints, he'd get torn apart.

If Gage has any pretense to doing actual research and looking for evidence, he should take it seriously if someone tells him a street sweeper had written an excellent analysis of the fall of the towers - he should at least check it out. He wouldn't, unless it confirmed his bias. As others mentioned, he relies on the word of a singularly unqualified individual who has examined the paper, but he won't read the paper. That's ridiculous.
 
I agree. I also don't think I would hire an Architect that needed a professor of theology to show him the "obvious signs of controlled demolition".

:rolleyes:

And yes, I also agree with you on that as well :D
 
If Gage has any pretense to doing actual research and looking for evidence, he should take it seriously if someone tells him a street sweeper had written an excellent analysis of the fall of the towers - he should at least check it out. He wouldn't, unless it confirmed his bias. As others mentioned, he relies on the word of a singularly unqualified individual who has examined the paper, but he won't read the paper. That's ridiculous.

Darn, I consider myself a researcher but I don't waste my time watching the latest P4T or CIT videos/work. I just did a 2-hour interview this afternoon for a college radio station talking about 9/11 stuff and I emphasized this very thing. Too many people who are simply not qualified to address certain topics making too many claims. Some of it is good work (from what I know of Mackey, his stuff should be a good read), but most on the internet these days is just trash (especially out of the CT side of things).

In doing my research, I turn to air traffic controllers if I want to know something about the subject. Sadly, I have found that I have to go through more than one because even specialists have a divergence of opinion. Same thing with radar, or the flight data recorder, and anything else dealing with the subject at hand. If I ever turn my attention to the WTC, it will not be Mackey I turn to for an in-depth understanding of the subject. That does not reflect on his abilities at all, just my own preference for dealing with specialists in a particular discipline.

However, Mackey should not take that personally because I don't read Gage's stuff either. From my own training and experience I find the WTC 1 & 2 collapse thus far best explained by the NIST report. I don't see evidence for CD, but I also confess I have not looked at it in sufficient detail to have an opinion worth anything. Not sure that I buy the NIST explanation of the WTC 7 collapse or not, but again I have not looked at it in sufficient detail to have a reasoned opinion.

But for the guy who says this is 'logic fail', I happened to have managed a global team of a whole host of engineering specialties. I had Chem E's, EE's, ME's and a diverse range of folks working either in a direct or 'dotted' pathway. Yes, we all shared some common expertise, but I would never assign one of the beam guys (EE's) to work with the chemical processes, or one of the chem guys (Chem E's) to work the beam processes. I would not assign an ME to establish change controls either, I would use a QE. Production efficiency would be best handed by an IE. So no, there is something to be said about being a specialist in the area you are discussing.
 
Suit yourself. But I don't think I'll commission a 'rocket scientist' to build a house for me.
Nor would I-I hire contractors who know the building codes. But to tell me I'm not qualified to determine whether it will stand up in a wind, or due to snow loading, or an earthquake, given that I know the forcing function and how it was constructed, and what it was built of is pure appeal to authority on your part.
 
So, let's see here... this individual is basically saying that my paper must be nonsense, because it's deliberately written in such a way that he can't comprehend it. Or because it's too long. Or because -- since he hasn't read it, and naturally he must be smarter than anyone else -- nobody else has read it either.

Even more astonishing, he finds it so impenetrable that he compares it to a "nine-hour DVD." Yes, that's right, Truthers only receive information in video form. :D

The first time I picked up your white paper, I picked through it looking for certain bits, got intrigued, and then read the whole thing in one sitting. Months passed, and I referenced portions of your white paper again to check some things being argued on the forums, I got intrigued, and read the whole thing once again.

You've invented crack for engineers. :eye-poppi
 
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So I see where Gage is coming from on this. Why should he read Mackey's paper?

Thats not a defense that Gage can use, as he does the same. He is not qualified anymore than McKay is...............He is an Architect, not a Structural Engineer. It is possible to be both, but Gage is not.
 
Nor would I-I hire contractors who know the building codes. But to tell me I'm not qualified to determine whether it will stand up in a wind, or due to snow loading, or an earthquake, given that I know the forcing function and how it was constructed, and what it was built of is pure appeal to authority on your part.

No, but if you don't have the credentials for those sorts of things in the industry I'm not going to take you seriously. I don't take Gage seriously either if that helps any :D

Oh and by the way, 'appeal to authority' is not a bad thing. If I'm sick, I'll call an authority (a doctor). If someone is breaking into my house, I'll call another authority, but certainly not my doctor (unless the guy breaking in shoots me). So yeah, I prefer someone who can speak authoritatively on a subject. That is why we have specialists in different subjects and fields.
 
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Where did you source that data? I'd like to push it under the nose of a couple of truthers :D
They will read the forms and see the money was all expensed out, and forget salaries are expenses.

2007 FORM 990-EZ - gross receipts - $45,132 2008 FORM 990-EZ - gross - $149,579 - 2009 FORM 990-EZ - gross - $344,570 - His goal, money

ARCHITECTS & ENGINEERS FOR 9-11 TRUTH INC - found it @ Guidestar

http://www2.guidestar.org/organizations/26-1532493/architects-engineers-9-11-truth.aspx

I set up an account and was able to download pdf files for each year on file at Guidestar.

Poor Gage is too busy trying to spend 300k to read papers, so he uses hearsay to say Mackey was debunked. Gage has this act down, how long will people fall for ignorance and lies...
 
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Their 2009 form 990 was signed exactly a year ago and received on july 1st 2010. So let's check out the site in the coming days and week, and hope they won't make us wait much longer!
 
What is a "White Paper?"

OK, obviously some folks are confused about the meaning of a "white paper." Truthers are obviously confused, but they're apparently not the only ones.

I note with amusement that my paper has been out for about four years, and this is the first time this has come up... :boggled:

As others have noted, there are several types of "white papers." Obviously mine is not a policy document, as I am in no position to make or advise policy. Mine instead, as should be apparent, is a technical white paper.

Technical white papers are common. You can find them out there on practically every topic, from future space transportation systems to low-voltage lighting options to home entertainment speaker design. A technical white paper is a self-published research paper. They usually contain a blend of original work and a survey of previous efforts, and typically reference many other results, from peer-reviewed science, conference papers, other white papers, brochures, interviews, and so on.

A technical white paper differs from a journal article in three major respects. First, they are self-published. As a result, they do not have to conform to anyone's particular editorial standards. This frees the writer of the white paper to tailor the paper for any specific audience, whereas journal articles are almost always intended for seasoned specialists in a particular discipline. Typically white papers are written to have much broader appeal, requiring less training to be relevant to readers.

Second, they are not peer reviewed. Some white papers are reviewed, as mine was, but this review is understood to be a "friendly" review rather than a rigorous, double-blind, challenging procedure. Just as two experts may not agree on something, you may find two white papers with differing results on any given subject. This is not a bad thing.

Third, they are understood to be papers written from a position of advocacy. Strong personal opinions are discouraged in journal articles, but in white papers the author is expected to provide some expert guidance, even where this guidance is in the form of personal experience rather than something that can be rigorously quantified. A well-written journal paper does not give advice, it merely states what can be proven and how this leads to a hypothesis. A white paper will go further, leaning on these conclusions and adding recommendations for readers and users of the subject technology.

A similar type of communication is the "position paper," where the author expresses an opinion on a topic, which may or may not be technical. There is no clear dividing line between a white paper and a position paper, however in general the white paper will contain more technical detail and less extrapolation or unsupported opinion.

My white paper fulfills these guidelines in every respect save one, that being it is unusually large. For the size, I can only lay blame at the feet of Dr. Griffin, who generated or repeated an incredible number of errors spanning everything between simple mistakes, unbridled speculation, and deliberate falsehood. As the Truth Movement has sparked rambling, pointless discussions at the JREF alone totalling something like 8,000 threads, some of which have over 100,000 posts each, surely you can forgive me for writing a mere 290 pages on the topic.

Regarding the matter of "appeal to authority," there is none implied nor required. As others have noted, I am not a structural engineer or an architect, not a metallurgist nor a forensic investigator. In fact, the tragedy of September 11th is so vast that there is no one profession that can cover it all. My background is easy to figure out, and it's somewhat relevant, particularly with respect to the aircraft, the role they played in the collapses, and other fluid phenomena such as abrasion of fireproofing material and behavior of the various plumes. But that's not the point. Nowhere in the paper do I rely on my own authority. The paper contains literally hundreds of references to published papers, experts, and so on. Where I've added original research, those calculations are done in longhand so they may be verified. Where I'm applying my own opinion or speculation, it is clearly marked.

The white paper is intended, among other things, to be a summary of existing investigations rather than competing with them. You will all agree that it is simply not useful to tell someone who asks a question, "go read NIST, go read these twelve papers from Arup and U. Edinburgh and Sheffield and Northwestern, and figure it out already." That works for scientists and specialists, but that won't be particularly valuable to most readers.

As a result, my paper does not conflict with NIST or what have you any more than the television specials done by National Geographic or The History Channel. It's just another way to explain and try to draw connections between the vast array of real data and real research out there -- research that many people, even today, are only dimly aware of. My own effort differs from theirs in that it specifically addresses the mystifications of one, evidently influential individual, namely Dr. Griffin, who is only peripherally treated by others.

The reason I wrote it in the first place is because I was asked to. For those who don't recall, it wasn't my original intent to write such a thing. Instead, Ron Wieck asked me to prepare him with a brief for a planned (ultimately cancelled) debate with Dr. Griffin. I expected to write a mere 20 pages or so of simple explanation and be done with it, but after I actually read Dr. Griffin's book, it quickly became clear that the sheer volume of nonsense was far greater. I could then either choose to punt, or to undertake a much larger effort. I did the latter. Along the way, it seemed that my work could be more useful to others, thus the project experienced some scope creep to become the publicly readable article it is today.

Upon completion it also provided me with one final opportunity: To demonstrate to the Truth Movement just how impotent they actually are. To date only a scant handful of them have dared to challenge it, as I explain in detail in the later versions of the paper itself. And now we have Richard Gage who won't even read the thing, even though he promised to do so, and promised to respond. Now, three years after my last edit, it stands there unchallenged, unrefuted, and yet still ever present in the minds of Truthers. Ask practically any Truther if they've heard of it, and chances are they have, but they'll make some weak excuse as to why they ignore it just like Gage did.

This tells you all you need to know about Gage, and about the Truth Movement. They are charlatans.
 
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What I'm pointing out is simply

Stop right there.

We know exactly what you're trying to do. You want to bog down the discussion in order to get people focused on the meaning of words and phrases rather than on the extremely weak belief system that you cherish so much...one whose flaws are glaringly obvious even to you.

Standard truther operating procedure.
 
Their 2009 form 990 was signed exactly a year ago and received on july 1st 2010. So let's check out the site in the coming days and week, and hope they won't make us wait much longer!

I've emailed AE911T to ask for the 2010 form 990. They lady I got an email from before said it should be available in June.

If I get it, I will post it here.

Or in a new thread, or somewhere.
 
A technical white paper differs from a journal article in three major respects. First, they are self-published. ...

Second, they are not peer reviewed. ...

Third, they are understood to be papers written from a position of advocacy. Strong personal opinions are discouraged in journal articles, but in white papers the author is expected to provide some expert guidance, even where this guidance is in the form of personal experience rather than something that can be rigorously quantified.


So a "technical" white paper can be any article including a discussion and opinion self-published by any author. Thanks for clarifying that.

Anyway, just started reading Mackey's somewhat off-white paper. I'm surprised at how much can be picked apart just by a lay reader like myself.

Some examples, just from an initial reading:

"What Dr. Griffin demands is proof of a negative, and this is a logical fallacy."

Like most 9/11 bedunkers, Mackey misunderstands the objective here and therefore (probably deliberately) misunderstands where the burden of proof lies. It is not a logical fallacy to state that the official explanation does not explain the events credibly, and that it's more likely that some kind of other method, still not completely clear, was used to bring the buildings down.

I realize that reversing the burden of proof is the primary goal of 9/11 bedunkerism, but a real debunker would already understand: There is nothing logically "fallacious" in stating that the official explanation is self-contradicting, and that other explanations fit the events far better. Period. A specific CD theory does not need to be posited to advance the first thesis.

"One would still need to advance evidence supporting the explosives hypothesis before it could have any merit."

The main argument is simply that the NIST explanation is not possible or credible. That's where the focus is. That's where the burden of proof is. Your agreement or disagreement on this point has no bearing on its factuality.

"Mr. DeMartini’s comment is ... unsupported by any calculation, and thus should be considered as speculative. Perhaps his belief was simply mistaken. We cannot seek clarification, because tragically, Mr. DeMartini was killed on September 11th."

You don't need to seek clarification from DeMartini. You already know that what he meant was that the buildings could withstand a 707 jet impact. We also already know that they withstood slightly more than that on September 11th.

Mackey quoting Leslie Robertson:

"...And then of course with the 707 to the best of my knowledge the fuel load was not considered in the design, and indeed I don't know how it could have been considered."

Except that Mackey has already quoted John Skilling, Robertson's boss, on this matter. Here's Mackey's edited version of what Skilling said: ".... the Towers would suffer a “horrendous fire… but the structure would still be there.”'

Here's what Skilling actually said : "Our analysis indicated the biggest problem would be the fact that all the fuel (from the airplane) would dump into the building. There would be a horrendous fire. A lot of people would be killed," he said. "The building structure would still be there."

Bedunker fakery at its finest. Mark Roberts, anyone?

"Of his five criticisms, three are attempts to shift the burden of proof,"

No, because you haven't understood the burden of proof.

"..one is a gross mischaracterization of a designer’s opinions,"

No, it is not a gross mischaracterization. It's a reasonable inference when reading and understanding the actual quote.

" and the last is simple well-poisoning. "

Meaningless, misapplied term here.
 
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So a "technical" white paper can be any article including a discussion and opinion self-published by any author. Thanks for clarifying that.

You know, instead of arguing the term "white paper" maybe you could refute the content of the paper. Wouldn't that be more productive?

So, What exactly does he get wrong?
 

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