Merged Continuation - 9/11 CT subforum General Discussion Thread

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King of the Americas said:
And WHAT IF he 'could' have done something...? What if, we DID have a fighter in the air, near one of those airliners? The President wasn't in a Command position, to even consider making that call, because he was playing nursemaid to a group of kids.

"Wow, we sure are lucky the President didn't have anything to do, WHILE WE ARE UNDER DIRECT ATTACK, that way he could spend an extra 1/6th of an hour reading about the goat."

The President operates within a secure perimeter. He was not in danger. If he WAS 'at that moment' in danger, how horked up is it that he would shelter near children???

"Mr. President, we think you may be a target."

"It's a good thing I'm near children, I understand they make great shields."

Your stance is becoming more crazy to me...
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I asked you to please reply to post #7326, which contained a question for you.
You purport to reply, but you completely ignored the question, and indeed the entire post I asked you to reply to.

Can't you read, can't you concentrate on a topic, or is this deliberately weasling away from questions you can't answer?

I will have to repost - this time I will boldface and enlarge the things I request you to pay attention to and address in your next reply:



A good decision-maker decides on the grounds of sufficient information.

When Bush was in that class room, he was given a brief notice by Card.


Can anybody (I am looking at KotA, Clayton and Red here more than at others) state what the full extent of the information available to Bush was at that moment? And then, what Card's full extent of the information available to him was?

Given that information (and none beyond that), we can debate what the smartest decision would have been.

You see, all the time, while the President is occupied with activity A, some bad incident B happens somewhere in the world that the President potentially needs to know and act upon. But it is impossible to know all the Bs as early as they happen, and launch fully fledged responses on the spot. Information needs to first be gathered, filtered, made digestible and presented to the chief decision maker. Only after that, a responsible decision can be made. This takes time. Something that many here often misunderestimate.


I remember several instances in IT project that I worked on in the past years, where some major system breakdown happened on our watch, that eventually needed the attention of the highest decision makers (for example, a CIO), and possibly a decision by him.
Did we ever inform the CIO within 10 minutes? No, never, not even close. Did we ever get a decision within 20 minutes? No! Why? Because us subordinates needed to find out the information first and evaluate it, then relay, etc. etc. etc.
Crisis response takes time. Especially when it is a crisis that no SOP is in place for. (SOPs were in place for several scenarios of attack from outside the USA; surely, information and decisions about a nuclear attack would have travelled much faster, because the system was optimized for that).
 
King of the Americas said:
We CAN'T because there was no one at a post, to order any fighters, anywhere.

Nation Guard trainers do fly WITH live munitions, sometimes.
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The military does not need orders from the commander in chief to start acring.
At every level, all those needed to order the fighters that were on alert were on their posts, and the fighters, too, were properly on alert. The alerts were indeed activated, and all fighters scrambled, with no input from the political leadership needed or given, and not a second was lost.

It would be utter folly to make such decisions and chains of command time-critically dependent on the President being awake, alert and informed. You obviously have not the slightest idea how the military is organized.
 
King of the Americas said:
YOU people are the ones speculating that the President COULD have been a target...
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The President is ALWAYS a potential target, 24/7. That's why he has security around him at all times.
When the country is attacked by terrorists, it goes without saying that the President's guards get nervous. Political leaders are ALWAYS prime targets of terrorists everywhere. This is not speculation, this is a well established fact of life.
 
ElMondoHummus said:
Damn... in just 24 posts, we've seen thermite, misunderstanding of NFPA921, "building 7 minor damage few fires", "footprint", the beginnings of the "steel shipped off" argument, the "not all the steel was examined" canard, "cui bono", the Pakistani ISI money...

I'm thinking about calling these posters "K-Tel", because they're giving us all the greatest hits from the past. :boggled:

So what's next? We going to see Stand Down resurrected again? Northwoods? Maybe someone will resurrect Wirt Walker and Securacom again? The power outage? Bomb sniffing dogs removed? I mean, personally speaking, I haven't seen these guys talk about Securacom in a very long time; that one's so old, some folks in this forum have probably not ever encountered it yet.
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Well, he did come in with a new one:

Enough magnetic thermite could have been in the cargo hold of the planes to do the job. It could have been actually been listed in the cargo and ignored, or it was placed there by the ground crew in full knowledge of the results.
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There you have it - the aircraft didn't actually SLAM into the towers. They parked, the passengers got out at gunpoint, painted thermite all over the beams, and THEN the aircraft exploded. It just happened too fast for us to see.
 
DeathDart said:
How curious that on the day of the attack, Guiliani and his entourage set up shop in a different headquarters, abandoning the special bunker designed precisely for such an event.
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You want to destroy a couple thousand sheets of paper documents or wiping tens of thousands of digital documents? Get a paper shredder or overwrite the contents of the disk with a gutmann (35 pass) overwrite of the data to make sure it's unrecoverable.

DeathDart said:
Is curious the same as unusual?
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It's curious that conspirators would rather rig their building up with explosives and bring the entire building down during a raging fire while risking the likelihood of artifacts from their offices surviving to be revealed like an open book in a forthcoming investigation.

If you're looking for motivation as evidence, then for your belief to be credible Giuliani and his accomplice conspirators would need to have an IQ less than 30.
 
You want to destroy a couple thousand sheets of paper documents or wiping tens of thousands of digital documents? Get a paper shredder or overwrite the contents of the disk with a gutmann (35 pass) overwrite of the data to make sure it's unrecoverable.
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...or drop 'em off a boat in the middle of the ocean
 
Grizzly Bear said:
You want to destroy a couple thousand sheets of paper documents or wiping tens of thousands of digital documents? Get a paper shredder or overwrite the contents of the disk with a gutmann (35 pass) overwrite of the data to make sure it's unrecoverable.


It's curious that conspirators would rather rig their building up with explosives and bring the entire building down during a raging fire while risking the likelihood of artifacts from their offices surviving to be revealed like an open book in a forthcoming investigation.

If you're looking for motivation as evidence, then for your belief to be credible Giuliani and his accomplice conspirators would need to have an IQ less than 30.
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That's the average truther IQ.
 
Grizzly Bear said:
You want to destroy a couple thousand sheets of paper documents or wiping tens of thousands of digital documents? Get a paper shredder or overwrite the contents of the disk with a gutmann (35 pass) overwrite of the data to make sure it's unrecoverable.
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It must have been disquieting for the PTB when reams of paper items survived the collapses and floated out over Manhattan...:rolleyes:
 
dafydd said:
That's the average truther IQ.
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Most, if not all, of the fantasies that have come out of 9/11 Truth do require that the alleged perpetrators be dumber than the truthers themselves. They likely see this as evidence of their superiority in intelligence and investigation. The rest of us see it as a poorly written attempt at a murder-mystery from an inexperienced author.
 
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DeathDart said:
FEMA Headquarters
One of the most interesting tenants was then-Mayor Giuliani's Office of Emergency Management, and its emergency command center on the 23rd floor. This floor received 15 million dollars worth of renovations, including independent and secure air and water supplies, and bullet and bomb resistant windows designed to withstand 200 MPH winds. 2 The 1993 bombing must have been part of the rationale for the command center, which overlooked the Twin Towers, a prime terrorist target.

How curious that on the day of the attack, Guiliani and his entourage set up shop in a different headquarters, abandoning the special bunker designed precisely for such an event.

Is curious the same as unusual?

http://www.wtc7.net/background.html
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You're confusing the EOC for NYC with FEMA. Go back and try again.
 
DeathDart said:
I believe the scene of a mass murder would be a protected crime scene, unless you are trying to hide something.
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One thing you might want to hide is survivers.
Another thing you might want to hide is human remains.
But you'd be pretty alone with those priorities.

  • In the immediate aftermath of the collapses, finding survivors, however improbable that was, had TOP priority and trumped protecting the pristinity of the crime scene. That is usual practice everywhere: You first save lives, then you go after the bad guys. Everything else would have been "unusual".
  • Try explaining to the thousands of victims' relatives that you won't do a thing to recover the remains speedily and instead let them rot and stink to the heavens as long as you like! Would you agree to wait another 6 months before you can bury your wife, brother, mother, child?



But then, the crime scene WAS inspected - it was, AFAIK, the most intense investigation of a forensic site ever. GZ was a crime scene for months, and an additional crime scene was set up at Freshkills to look very closely at all the evidence.
 
FBI Counterintelligence was ignoring the Israelis, and the field FBI knew it.

Looks like the CIA knew about it too.

As far as useful idiots, some idiots are also savants

Phil Giraldi Spills Beans on Israeli Espionage in America

“Over 125 investigations into Israeli Espionage in America… stopped due to political pressure.”…FBI Counter Intel Officer John Cole

http://www.salem-news.com/articles/june092011/israel-espionage-jd.php

Can you prove that this man is not Counter Intel Officer?
 
DeathDart said:
...
Can you prove that this man is not Counter Intel Officer?
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Can you prove he is?

See, this is not how it works: You can't throw dozends of wild assertions at us and expect us to find evidence they are untrue.
YOU must provide evidence they are true. And significantly related to 9/11. And lead to conclusions that are inconsistent with the accepted facts that 19 Arab members of Al Qaeda, all of them islamist fanatics, hijacked 4 planes, took the American defenses sufficiently and predictably by surprise, and used them to destroy the WTC and part of the Pentagon.

You don't really provide any such evidence. And you fail to argue your claims, by mostly ignoring all the points raised against your assertions. We have seen this behaviour all too often - it gets old. Is there a truther school somewhere that teaches how not to think critically and how not to use the scientific method and logic to support theories by fact-based evidence?
 
Thousands of people is not an investigation

The people who had to be rescued were at the periphery of the collapse. Directly at the towers there could be no survivors. Oh wait, I turned my forcefield on at the last second.

I don't care how many 1000's people of people you had wander around the site and then calling it an investigation. Without heavy equipment AND TIME all they were was a bunch of tourists.
 
King of the Americas said:
We CAN'T because there was no one at a post, to order any fighters, anywhere.
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Rubbish. Look back at where I explained the June 2001 Joint Staff instruction to Clayton Moore. Any NORAD commander was empowered by this instruction to react immediately, without waiting for authorisation, even though truthers want to pretend the opposite.

Dave
 
DeathDart said:
The people who had to be rescued were at the periphery of the collapse. Directly at the towers there could be no survivors.
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Oh wait, you mean the firefighters that were rescued from one of the stairwells in the Towers, didn't happen?

Your knowledge of the events of 9/11 are less than none.

DeathDart said:
I don't care how many 1000's people of people you had wander around the site and then calling it an investigation. Without heavy equipment AND TIME all they were was a bunch of tourists.
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Oh, you mean like this heavy equipment?

wtc1_core_wall_base_annot4.jpg


Or this heavy equpiment?

pdrm1943_25pct.jpg


Yeah, I rest my case. You're talking out of your ass.
 
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