Merged Continuation - 9/11 CT subforum General Discussion Thread

[dafydd]

I would have had him stand up, grab a toy sword conveniently placed in the classroom in advance, brandish it wildly and shout "Men, man your battle stations!" before dashing from the room sword on high. Once outside he would jump on a waiting horse and charge across the school parking lot.

He should have asked for the Football and sent some nukes to Arabland.

 

[dafydd]

There seems to be dissention in the ranks. Clay is arguing that Bush's reaction was not surprise (indicating foreknowledge), and both Red and Chris7 are arguing that it was surprise (indicating ignorance/incompetence). I'd really appreciate it if you worked out what your side's actual position on the matter is, or if you agree to disagree with each other.

As for WRH;

The reader may have heard from who? An official news source, or one of the many, many rumors that were swirling around?

We've already established that it was more like 10.

I've noticed that WRH assumes that Card actually knew other hijacked planes were in the air, without providing any evidence to support the assertion, other than the fact that there are airports nearby. (I'd like to point out that none of the 3 planes that hit actually flew out of the nearest airfield to their targets.) Who knew about the other hijacked planes at that point? What would telling Bush about the extra planes prove?

Ah, yes, the classic Truther rhetoical trick of implying things without actually stating them. If Bush needs to make a decision, he'll make his excuses and leave. Making a critical decision without being able to talk to his advisors would be extremely stupid. If he were to make an on-the-spot decision, he can just beckon Card over and talk to him.

Subjective. I note that WRH gives no description of what "acting surprised" would actually entail, just that Bush isn't doing it. Standard Truther non-falsifiability.

He was the President in front of a class full of children, what was he supposed to do,go into meltdown? Truthers,who can fathom them?

 

[Oz1976]

It's not my word, Hayden did NOT say it was leaning and he's the guy who checked it with a transit. He just said there was a bulge between floors 10 and 13 at the SW corner.

If WTC 7 were leaning, NIST would have said so in their reports. They did not.

YOU said "no firefighters said the building was leaning"...that video CLEARLY REFUTES YOU! A firefighter saying IT's LEANING! Admit your wrong.

 

[Oz1976]

The 'fighting' doesn't happen at a Command Post...

You think it is better to be with a croup of children, as the U.S. is BEING attacked, rather than being in direct communication with the JC's...?

I am glad YOU aren't in a position of importance.

Why do you continue to evade my posts regarding this. It's been answered and you ignore it. Go back and read what has been said.

 

[Oz1976]

He got the word from Cheney to sit tight.

No he didn't, they were out of communication well into the event, more lies from the Truth Movement.

 

[Oystein]

A good decision-maker decides on the grounds of sufficient information.

When Bush was in that class room, he was given a brief notice by Card.


Can anybody (I am looking at KotA, Clayton and Red here more than at others) state what the full extent of the information available to Bush was at that moment? And then, what Card's full extent of the information available to him was?

Given that information (and none beyond that), we can debate what the smartest decision would have been.

You see, all the time, while the President is occupied with activity A, some bad incident B happens somewhere in the world that the President potentially needs to know and act upon. But it is impossible to know all the Bs as early as they happen, and launch fully fledged responses on the spot. Information needs to first be gathered, filtered, made digestible and presented to the chief decision maker. Only after that, a responsible decision can be made. This takes time. Something that many here often misunderestimate.


I remember several instances in IT project that I worked on in the past years, where some major system breakdown happened on our watch, that eventually needed the attention of the highest decision makers (for example, a CIO), and possibly a decision by him.
Did we ever inform the CIO within 10 minutes? No, never, not even close. Did we ever get a decision within 20 minutes? No! Why? Because us subordinates needed to find out the information first and evaluate it, then relay, etc. etc. etc.
Crisis response takes time. Especially when it is a crisis that no SOP is in place for. (SOPs were in place for several scenarios of attack from outside the USA; surely, information and decisions about a nuclear attack would have travelled much faster, because the system was optimized for that).

 

[RedIbis]

You're finally catching on. The attack was over by the time he found out.

Incorrect. Check the timeline.

 

[sylvan8798]

Respectfully, wouldn't the President be shuttled to Air Force One, use it to catch up to a hijacked plane, attach to it with a zipline, forcibly enter the plane then cockpit and choke the terrorist to death, landing the plane harmlessly in a municipal airport somewhere?

It works in the movies: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0116253/

So aptly titled. Don't they make POTUS wannabees watch these things so they know how to behave?

 

[Bell]

Let's not forget...when the AA11 hit WTC1, nobody...and I mean nobody...thought it was terrorism.

Actually, that's not true. Chief Pfeifer (from the 9/11 documentary) when he made the first call to Manhattan dispatch about AA11 having struck the North Tower, advised (paraphrasing) it could be a terrorist attack, since the plane seemed to have been aiming straight at the tower.

 

[DGM]

Incorrect. Check the timeline.

I know the timeline. What exactly could have been done? (I refer to "over" as nothing could be done, sorry if this confused you)

 

[NoahFence]

It works in the movies: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0116253/

So aptly titled. Don't they make POTUS wannabees watch these things so they know how to behave?

LOL
that was the one "starring" Steven Segal, who died in the first 5 minutes, wasn't it?

 

[Oz1976]

You know what guys, I’m going to concede defeat on this one. I realize I was wrong to think that upon hearing confirmation that the nation is now under attack, the best course of action was not to sit dumbstruck and blindly gaze into a schoolroom of children and other citizens. After all, what could he do for the 8 minutes he sat there? He’s only the Commander-in- Chief, sworn to make decisions based on the advice of his principal officers, in defense of the US and decisions of war. And I should certainly forgive the president for doing absolutely nothing. Maybe he just wanted to find out if the little girl was going to keep her pet goat. It’s not like he could have immediately been in touch with the acting Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, who unfortunately, was unavailable in a closed door tea party. It’s not like he could have calmly and politely excused himself, while the area was secured, so that the school would not become a target. (Granted, the school was probably fine, even if the Pentagon had not gotten hit yet). It's not like he could have been mobilized, or any number of possible options, all within 8 minutes. Which is after all, a very short amount of time. It’s not as if the difference between success and failure on 9/11 was based on seconds, and not minutes.

I don’t know what I was thinking. You guys got me on this one, time to break out the debunker party punch.

1. He had his entourage on it...they were finding out information and relaying to him from across the room, you can see him in the full video look up from time to time and nod as he's given info from behind the students.

2. He went to Booker Elementary, in Sarasota Florida via motorcade. The closest base is an hour and a half north travelling by car on I-75 to I-275 into Tampa to reach Macdill Airforce Base (CENTCOM).

3. His entourage set up a quick command post inside the school which he was brought to after those 8 minutes while the secret service and others determined the best course of action to safely and securely get him to AF1 and in the air.

Stop acting like you or anyone else would have reacted any different in that situation. NONE OF US, nor has anyone else, been in THAT situation. How long did Obama linger over the decision to give the SEALS the go ahead when we knew the location of Osama bin Laden finally? Hmm?

The fact of the matter is whether he made the right decision or not, none of us can say what he could or should have done better. We have not the experience to say so. I'm guessing 99.99% of the TM would have pissed there pants and caused a panic in that class room where they in GWB's position that day. So please, cut the hindsight rhetoric.

 

[RedIbis]

I know the timeline. What exactly could have been done? (I refer to "over" as nothing could be done, sorry if this confused you)

Now you're equivocating on the word "over"?

 

[sylvan8798]

WRONG! They predicted the collapse based on the conditions at the time. It is idiotic to think that someone could predict that a building will collapse 5 hours before it does and your willingness to believe it just proves you will believe anything.

I don't know who they consulted, or what they calculated or said, but it is not out of the realm of possibility that an engineer could do some seat-of-the-pants calculations and offer a prediction. As I said earlier, it is likely the building would have suffered a catastrophic failure due to the damage sooner or later if the fire hadn't gotten it first. Your lack of knowledge in matters of structural engineering does not put you in a very credible position.

 

[Oystein]

You know what guys, I’m going to concede defeat on this one. I realize I was wrong to think that upon hearing confirmation that the nation is now under attack, the best course of action was not to sit dumbstruck and blindly gaze into a schoolroom of children and other citizens. After all, what could he do for the 8 minutes he sat there? He’s only the Commander-in- Chief, sworn to make decisions based on the advice of his principal officers, in defense of the US and decisions of war. And I should certainly forgive the president for doing absolutely nothing. Maybe he just wanted to find out if the little girl was going to keep her pet goat. It’s not like he could have immediately been in touch with the acting Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, who unfortunately, was unavailable in a closed door tea party. It’s not like he could have calmly and politely excused himself, while the area was secured, so that the school would not become a target. (Granted, the school was probably fine, even if the Pentagon had not gotten hit yet). It's not like he could have been mobilized, or any number of possible options, all within 8 minutes. Which is after all, a very short amount of time. It’s not as if the difference between success and failure on 9/11 was based on seconds, and not minutes.

I don’t know what I was thinking. You guys got me on this one, time to break out the debunker party punch.

What was the advice of his principal officers, actually given to Bush, during those 8 minutes?

 

[DGM]

Now you're equivocating on the word "over"?

No. If you're on a plane and some one jumps out, your involvement in this is over when he/she left the plane not when he/she hits the ground.

What exactly could Bush have done that would have effected the out come. If he was at the White House nothing would have changed. Basically he was never a factor.

 

[Oystein]

... As I said earlier, it is likely the building would have suffered a catastrophic failure due to the damage sooner or later if the fire hadn't gotten it first. ...

How likely? Would you have said the same thing before it actually collapsed? I think you are doing the same thing here that C7 does: Argue with the help of hindsight.

In my opinion, it wasn't clear to anyone at all that the building would collapse, or that that was very likely.
What matters is that some structural failure of the kind that endanger the life of firefighters in the building was possible. This at least would be sufficient grounds to call rescue operations off, given the higher priority of other locations on and around GZ at the time. And someone made that decision. It was a good decision, both at the time, and with hindsight. An excellent decsision.

 

[Sabretooth]

Actually, that's not true. Chief Pfeifer (from the 9/11 documentary) when he made the first call to Manhattan dispatch about AA11 having struck the North Tower, advised (paraphrasing) it could be a terrorist attack, since the plane seemed to have been aiming straight at the tower.

Then, I revise that statement to, "essentially no one".

 

[Clayton Moore]

No he didn't, they were out of communication well into the event, more lies from the Truth Movement.

9/11 wasn't the first time Cheney spoke to the Bush.

Maybe Cheney called him the night before and told him to sit tight till the Pentagon was attacked.

 

[NoahFence]

9/11 wasn't the first time Cheney spoke to the Bush.

That's quality reporting, right there.

Ma

ybe Cheney called him the night before and told him to sit tight till the Pentagon was attacked.

Um...no.

Get a new hobby, kiddo. You're no good at this one.