Merged Continuation - 9/11 CT subforum General Discussion Thread

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I'd take the word of this firefighter over yours anyday:-

It's not my word, Hayden did NOT say it was leaning and he's the guy who checked it with a transit. He just said there was a bulge between floors 10 and 13 at the SW corner.

If WTC 7 were leaning, NIST would have said so in their reports. They did not.
 
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You are trying to talk around the fact that you did not know that they used pump trucks to boost the pressure in the 1800' from the fire boats to the WTC.
"Boost the pressure" by how much, from how much, to how much? Show. Your. Work.
Yes I have. If they delivered over a million gallons a day it was obviously at high pressure.
How much pressure, exactly? I find it telling that you come on ower vague when people start asking you for specifics, after nitpicking for dozens of posts.

In addition, at the beginning of this argument gave the stats for a 1000 gpm pump truck. It could provide 700gpm at 124 psi to the 12th floor thru the standpipe system. If you really are a firefighter then you know that the standpipes come off a manifold and are independent of each other.
The standpipes that were been in the building which was on fire?

Stupid question. They did in fact deliver millions of gallons so why are you still asking how?
He's trying to get you to actually show your work and prove your point. It's like math class; you can copy down the answers from your friend, but you need to demonstrate an understanding of the logic involved as well. Your repeated evasions around producing the evidence and logic which you say supports your claims speaks to your dishonesty.

I'll ask again; what bought down the WTC 7?
 
Try reading the source that was with the quote posted. :D
"M.J., Employed at 45 Broadway"

I have been on this denier merry-go-round before.

There is NOTHING in the NIST reports about WTC 7 leaning. That would be a major factor and would be included if it had happened.
 
Try reading the source that was with the quote posted. :D
"M.J., Employed at 45 Broadway"

I have been on this denier merry-go-round before.

There is NOTHING in the NIST reports about WTC 7 leaning. That would be a major factor and would be included if it had happened.

What brought the building down? Woodworm?
 
And what time was that? Was it before noon?

From the NIST report.....

Between 11:00 a.in. and 12:00 noon, approximately 40 FDNY members arrived at WTC 7 with orders to put the fires out inside WTC 7. Inside they surveyed conditions and reported seeing small fires in debris in the core area and on the west side of the same floor of the building. They did not identify the floor where they observed this. A Chief Officer inside the building ran into other firefighters who had searched the upper floors, and they reported that no one was inside the building. When the Chief Officer reached approximately the 9& or 10* floor19, he had been inside the building about 20 min to 25 min. He received a radio call from another Chief Officer outside the building ordering him out of WTC 7..........................Multiple FDNY personnel reported seeing fires in WTC 7 from the exterior, some as early as about 11:00 a.m..........................
At approximately 11:30 am, FDNY assigned a different Chief Officer to take charge of operations at WTC 7. He was initially given orders to put the fires out in WTC 7....................................This Chief proceeded down the street to WTC 7 to gather information on conditions............Fire was observed on the south face, on a single floor around Floor 10 to Floor 14, and appeared to be traveling from west to east.20 At the comer of Vesey and West Broadway, a Chief reported that a FDNY Engine was connected to a hydrant at the corner of WTC 7. Hose lines were stretched, and the engine's pump was still running even though the engine was on fire and was almost burned out. There was no water coming out of the hydrant system.12 One FDNY Chief, who had been inside WTC 7, reported to him that he had opened a standpipe on the 4th floor of one stairway and found no water in the standpipe system.As they were leaving the building through a service door in the southeast corner, glass was breaking from overhead. After it stopped, they exited and saw that the fires on the south face had moved to the east face and were moving north. They reported that flames were coming out of the windows, and that the windows were breaking out sequentially in groups of two or three every 15 min to 20 min. The rooms appeared to have reached a flashover condition,........................
At approximately 1:00 p.m., an OEM staff member, a FDNY Deputy Chief, and a FDNY Battalion Chief entered WTC 7 to further evaluate conditions. The OEM staff member reported that they entered WTC 7 through the door near the southeast corner on West Broadway and proceeded up the B stairway on the east side. They stopped at the 3rd floor level. The atrium was filled with dust but had no significant debris. As they observed the area, they heard the building creaking.............
At the 5* floor, they moved to the A stairway and proceeded up. On the 8* or 9* floor, one of the group said he saw two elevator cars ejected from their shafts and in the hallway. Looking past the elevators, they could see a gaping hole in the south face from around the 6th to the 9th floors. They could see one floor below and two to three floors above that location. A lot of the core walls were destroyed, and one individual reported that he saw columns hanging from the floor above. They did not observe any fires at this time on the 8* floor or 9th floor, but the interviewee reported that they could hear fires burning well above where they were standing. Also, they continued to hear creaking noises in the building. As the FDNY Officers continued their inspection of WTC 7, they heard a loud noise, and a Chief decided that they should evacuate the building.....................
When a Chief Officer got to Barclay Street and West Broadway, numerous firefighters and officers were exiting WTC 7. These firefighters indicated that several blocks needed to be cleared around WTC 7 because they thought that the building was going to collapse.

In my opinion, considering what happened earlier in the day, and what happened later, the NYFD not only made the correct choice, they made the ONLY choice.
 
"Boost the pressure" by how much, from how much, to how much? Show. Your. Work.
Stupid request. They delivered millions of gallons to the site. That is proof enough that it had to be at high pressure.

How much pressure, exactly?
:D :D :D
Enough to deliver millions of gallons in just 3 days.

The standpipes that were been in the building which was on fire?
Yes, there were fires on floors 7 and 12. These fires burned about 20 to 30 minutes in any location before burning out.

I'll ask again; what bought down the WTC 7?
Another stupid question and a subject shift.
 
Stupid request. They delivered millions of gallons to the site. That is proof enough that it had to be at high pressure.

:D :D :D
Enough to deliver millions of gallons in just 3 days.

Yes, there were fires on floors 7 and 12. These fires burned about 20 to 30 minutes in any location before burning out.

Another stupid question and a subject shift.

It's not a stupid question,if you do not believe the official story then what do you believe? Why will no truther tell me about their theory? Have you all sworn a solemn oath to keep it a secret?
 
For some reason I'm happy you're not in a position of importance. Would this include manning the anti-aircraft guns?

Do you watch a lot of "Rambo" movies?


:rolleyes:

The 'fighting' doesn't happen at a Command Post...

You think it is better to be with a croup of children, as the U.S. is BEING attacked, rather than being in direct communication with the JC's...?

I am glad YOU aren't in a position of importance.

:rolleyes:
 
The 'fighting' doesn't happen at a Command Post...

You think it is better to be with a croup of children, as the U.S. is BEING attacked, rather than being in direct communication with the JC's...?

I am glad YOU aren't in a position of importance.

:rolleyes:

Was he supposed to have jumped up and fled for the exit?
 
You are trying to talk around the fact that you did not know that they used pump trucks to boost the pressure in the 1800' from the fire boats to the WTC.

No, you NEVER, not ONCE specified a relay. Go back and look there champ.

Why don't you just do the math. You have some of the tools to do it.


Yes I have. If they delivered over a million gallons a day it was obviously at
high pressure.

Yes, over dozens of different lines. Not 1 single line of even 5 lines as you tried to interject.

Why don't you just do the math? Show that it could go from the Harvey to the 12th floor of 7WTC.

Just remember the known that I have already discussed.


In addition, at the beginning of this argument gave the stats for a 1000 gpm pump truck. It could provide 700gpm at 124 psi to the 12th floor thru the standpipe system.

Yes, and then you still need to get up INTO the building that is structurally compromised, to fight a fire that is NOT a priority. Not even CLOSE. Your ignorance of priority is astounding.


If you really are a firefighter then you know that the standpipes come off a manifold and are independent of each other.

Not always. Some are single systems depending on the design.

Stupid question. They did in fact deliver millions of gallons so why are you still asking how?

I am still curious as to HOW you would get it from the Harvey to the 12th floor of 7WTC. You still have YET to lay out any kind of reasonable theory, nor have you explained WHY they would in the first place, when thousands of people were dead or dying yards away.
 
Try reading the source that was with the quote posted. :D
"M.J., Employed at 45 Broadway"

I have been on this denier merry-go-round before.

There is NOTHING in the NIST reports about WTC 7 leaning. That would be a major factor and would be included if it had happened.
Again, argument from lack of evidence.

Also, you're quote-mining. I made several points in that post, and they all vanished.

Stupid request. They delivered millions of gallons to the site. That is proof enough that it had to be at high pressure.
Yes, but was it high enough?

:D :D :D
Enough to deliver millions of gallons in just 3 days.
You are studiously avoiding actual numbers.

Yes, there were fires on floors 7 and 12. These fires burned about 20 to 30 minutes in any location before burning out.
Interesting. Can any of the firefighters in here tell me if the FDNY would've used standpipes in the building? I seem to recall something about damage to the water supply inside 7.

Another stupid question and a subject shift.
You are claiming it was not fire which caused the collapse. Asking you what you think it was is entirely relevant to the General Discussion of 9/11 Conspiracy Theories, which is, oddly, the subject of this thread. It says so at the top of the page.
 
The 'fighting' doesn't happen at a Command Post...

You think it is better to be with a croup of children, as the U.S. is BEING attacked, rather than being in direct communication with the JC's...?

I am glad YOU aren't in a position of importance.

:rolleyes:
Argument from personal incredulity noted.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7308982&postcount=7179

He stayed there from a little over ten minutes before getting to a command room where he got in touch with the necessary people. In terms of a crisis, that's not much time at all. It may speak to incompetence, sure, but not complicity.
 
It's not a stupid question,if you do not believe the official story then what do you believe? Why will no truther tell me about their theory? Have you all sworn a solemn oath to keep it a secret?
It's a stupid question because you know that the TM says that WTC 7 was a CD. I have said so on this forum many times.
 
It's a stupid question because you know that the TM says that WTC 7 was a CD. I have said so on this forum many times.
Gage says that and his fraud brings in money. Why do you support the CD delusion? Gage does it to make a living fooling people who can't figure out 911, why do you try to mislead people with the lie of CD? What are you doing about your claims, when will you go to the FBI? What will you do? The People on Flight 93 took action to stop terrorists, why can't you?
 
C7 said:
They delivered millions of gallons to the site. That is proof enough that it had to be at high pressure.
Yes, but was it high enough?
They delivered over a million gallons a day, so yes. If you can't figure that out you're a few pickets shy of a fence.

You are studiously avoiding actual numbers.
It is obvoius that the water was delivered at high pressure to the site but in addition to that I gave these numbers several pages back.

Fire pumps [in pump trucks] are designed to perform as follows:
100% of rated capacity at 150 psi net pump pressure
70% of rated capacity at 200 psi net pump pressure
50% of rated capacity at 250 psi net pump pressure
http://home.honolulu.hawaii.edu/~jkemmler/chapter4.htm

The floors were approximately 12 feet.
12 x 12 = 144 x .5 = 72 psi loss
A 1000 gmp pump truck, operating at 200 psi, can deliver 700 gmp at 128 psi to the 12th floor.

Interesting. Can any of the firefighters in here tell me if the FDNY would've used standpipes in the building? I seem to recall something about damage to the water supply inside 7.
Standpipes come of a manifold and can be isolated.

You are claiming it was not fire which caused the collapse.
Yes. How could you have missed that?

Go back and read my posts starting on pg 68.
 
They delivered over a million gallons a day, so yes. If you can't figure that out you're a few pickets shy of a fence.
How much was "enough"? How many areas was the FDNY trying to cover? How much water would be used for each areas? Remember to show that working-out which you seem so reluctant to produce.

Also, 7 came down in less than a day. How much water was available for WTC 7 on September 11, 2001? Not over "three days", just the time between (in the interest of fairness) the first impact and the WTC 7 collapse. yes, that's right, I'm letting you include an even longer span of time, including a period when WTC 7 wasn't actually on fire, so you can say they had even more water.

[numbers]
A 1000 gmp pump truck, operating at 200 psi, can deliver 700 gmp at 128 psi to the 12th floor.
I see. And how much distance would they have to go through outside of the building, such as, for instance, running water from the Hudson? How close is the Hudson at its nearest point to WTC7? I suspect there's probably another logical flaw or two, but I'll leave that to everyone else.

Standpipes come of a manifold and can be isolated.
But would the FDNY have used them? How complex is this manifold to operate? Why on earth would the FDNY go out of their way to fight a fire in an empty building when they have more than enough rival attractions to occupy their attention?

[...]
Also, you're quote-mining. I made several points in that post, and they all vanished.
[...]
You are claiming it was not fire which caused the collapse. Asking you what you think it was is entirely relevant to the General Discussion of 9/11 Conspiracy Theories, which is, oddly, the subject of this thread. It says so at the top of the page.

Chris7 said:
Yes. How could you have missed that?
No, seriously, stop quote-mining. Do you have an actual affirmative position? A claim as to what actually happened, or are you just going to keep harping on about what you see as holes in the official story?
 
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They delivered over a million gallons a day, so yes. If you can't figure that out you're a few pickets shy of a fence.

It is obvoius that the water was delivered at high pressure to the site but in addition to that I gave these numbers several pages back.

You still haven't given us a figure for over-all water requirements, so your assertion that the millions of gallons were adequate is worthless. Further, at what time did all of this water become available?

Further still, why would any drooling moron go into a building that they thought was going to collapse if they knew that nobody in there needed help and every available hand was needed to pick through the rubble looking for survivors?
 
C7 said:
You are trying to talk around the fact that you did not know that they used pump trucks to boost the pressure in the 1800' from the fire boats to the WTC.
No, you NEVER, not ONCE specified a relay.
You are the one claiming to be the firefighter and expert. If you really were you would not have asked me to do the math for friction losses. That was foreseen and taken care of by the real firefighters.

I finally found an article that mentioned "relay" and instantly knew what they were talking about. I then challenged you to tell how they got millions of gallons to the site and you had no answer so I posted the article.

Why don't you just do the math.
Why ask? That's a silly question. They delivered millions of gallons to the site. You are just trying to watse my time. :rolleyes:

Why don't you just do the math? Show that it could go from the Harvey to the 12th floor of 7WTC.
I did the math several pages ago but you went into your friction loss crap. A real firefighter could figure out how to get the job done. A denier only thinks up reason why it can't be done.

Just remember the known that I have already discussed
Then you know that a 1,000 gpm pump truck can deliver 700 gpm at ~111-124 psi to the 12th floor. [200 minus 72 for lift =128 psi minus 17 psi friction loss from truck 100' to stand pipe thru 3 1/2" hose or 4 psi thru a 5" hose]

A real firefighter would not be asking a carpenter to do the math. A real firefighter would know that they used pump trucks to relay the water to the site and that standpipes are fed off a manifold so they can be isolated. I didn't think of that right away because I am not a fireman. But then I remembered seeing these manifolds in commercial buildings.

Yes, and then you still need to get up INTO the building that is structurally compromised
You keep repeating something you know is not true. The damage did NOT prevent firefighters from entering and inspecting the building. One of the chiefs said the fires could have been fought but he was overruled.
NCSTAR 1-9 pg 299
The Chief Officer left the building and went to the FDNY Command Post and reported to the Command Post Chief that he believed the fires inside WTC 7 could be extinguished. Thus, the Chief assigned with firefighting tasks was sent back to extinguish the fires. When he got back to WTC 7, he met FDNY Superior Officers and an OEM staff member who were also assessing the building’s condition.

He could not fight the fires if he didn't have any water so there must have been water of they would not have sent him back to fight the fires.

In case you forgot, this whole argument is about:
NIST lied when they said there was no water to fight the fires in WTC 7.
 
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