Merged Continuation - 9/11 CT subforum General Discussion Thread

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Christopher7 said:
You are trying to change the subject. That and the rest of your post has nothing to do with the point which is:
NIST said there was no water to fight the fire in WTC 7. That is not true.
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Nope. You just keep ignoring the fact that your point would be irrelevant, whether or not it was valid. Water is only part of the logistics. Not enough men, not enough tools, and no reason whatsoever to risk their lives for an empty, unsafe, building.

You tried to imply that friction losses would restrict how much water could get to the site while at the same time saying the fire boats delivered 38 million gallons in three days.
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I don't think those aren't actually contradictory positions. Friction losses, I assume, are a concern in any firefighting, especially if the hose would be moving said water over long distances.

Oz1976 said:
This has been answered, read my posts directed at you.
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I do like the fact that Bush was smart enough to listen to people who were smarter than him, yet Truthers refuse to.
 
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Christopher7 said:
You are trying to change the subject. That and the rest of your post has nothing to do with the point which is:
NIST said there was no water to fight the fire in WTC 7. That is not true.
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Do you think the hoses and other equipment could fight fire on it's own?

You have YET to show me that it was possibly to get water from 1800 feet away in the Hudson, to the 12th floor of 7WTC.

Here, I will lay it out for you.

Start with the Fireboat Harvey.

Tell me how many feet of 6" hose you have to lay before your next pumper.
Then the next.
And the next.
And then the next.
And then the next.

(there's your only hint BTW)

Now, show me what engines/ladder trucks you're using. Remember to take into account that not all fire engines pump at the same flowrate, and also remember that you have a deficit in manpower.

Do the math for me. It's YOUR claim, now back it up.

(Don't forget, you need to remember you CANNOT take any engines away from flowing water on the rubble pile. )


Christopher7 said:
Bull! :D All you talked about was friction losses. That was an attempt to claim that there wasn't enough water to fight a fire on the 12th floor of WTC 7 - which is the point of this particular argument.
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Correct. That is quite the obstacle that YOU must overcome. Never ONCE did you EVER mention anything about a relay. Not once.


Christopher7 said:
Are you really that dumb?
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Don't try me Chris Sarns. You're in violation of the MA.


Christopher7 said:
I have stated over and over what the point is:
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And over and over, I have asked YOU to back up YOUR claim with the math. Do date, you have not.

Christopher7 said:
You tried to imply that friction losses would restrict how much water could get to the site while at the same time saying the fire boats delivered 38 million gallons in three days.
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Correct. it said it was plausable. You would need to run dozens of 4" lines with 2 1/2" gated wyes. Yes, it is absolutely possible. Of course, I am not trying to overcome 144+ feet of elevation either.


Christopher7 said:
There was no shortage of water.
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Prove it. Show us the math proving FDNY incompetent.
 
000063 said:
I do like the fact that Bush was smart enough to listen to people who were smarter than him, yet Truthers refuse to.
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Unfortunate side effect of the "YouTube Generation"...doing any search of 9/11 of YouTube generates way more conspiracy nonsense returns than any actual factual information. The internet as well is deluged with CT/Truther returns. Not that many of them could comprehend what they would be reading from actual factual scientific work anyways, but, for example, an argument I had on Youtube with a truther who had one reply with "I refuse to believe..." 4-5 times in one reply. It's that mindset of certainty, of KNOWING THE TRUTH, you can't argue or debate someone like that. They've abandoned rational and critical thought, they KNOW IT. It's like shooting a brick wall with a pellet gun.
 
Do you think the hoses and other equipment could fight fire on it's own?
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To be fair, if you just let the water out of the hoses, it'll flail away uncontrollably. SOME water was bound to hit WTC 7.....


and maim anybody within 10 yards of it
 
triforcharity said:
Do you think the hoses and other equipment could fight fire on it's own?

You have YET to show me that it was possibly to get water from 1800 feet away in the Hudson, to the 12th floor of 7WTC.

Here, I will lay it out for you.

Start with the Fireboat Harvey.

Tell me how many feet of 6" hose you have to lay before your next pumper.
Then the next.
And the next.
And then the next.
And then the next.

(there's your only hint BTW)

Now, show me what engines/ladder trucks you're using. Remember to take into account that not all fire engines pump at the same flowrate, and also remember that you have a deficit in manpower.

Do the math for me. It's YOUR claim, now back it up.

(Don't forget, you need to remember you CANNOT take any engines away from flowing water on the rubble pile. )




Correct. That is quite the obstacle that YOU must overcome. Never ONCE did you EVER mention anything about a relay. Not once.




Don't try me Chris Sarns. You're in violation of the MA.




And over and over, I have asked YOU to back up YOUR claim with the math. Do date, you have not.



Correct. it said it was plausable. You would need to run dozens of 4" lines with 2 1/2" gated wyes. Yes, it is absolutely possible. Of course, I am not trying to overcome 144+ feet of elevation either.




Prove it. Show us the math proving FDNY incompetent.
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I'm in agreement with almost this entire post.

I've conceded that the fireboat Harvey was able to deliver 8000 gpm at 300 psi (at the boat), but what of the friction and head losses from that point to WTC7, and how much was needed for other operations.

Eight thousand gallons per minute is not a lot of water for fires as serious as the 9/11 disaster IMO. That's 32 (1.5 inch) hose streams at best, and if they had to be run any distance (and then up 12 stories in Cristopher7's dream world), it would be like pissing on a bonfire.

I can see all of that water easily being used just for rescue operations and extinguishing other fires to allow access for more equipment as it arrived.

I agree that Chris needs to be able to describe how in the world there was enough water for all of the firefighting ops.

He certainly hasn't convinced me yet.

Oh, and I'm really getting tired of his blustering that triforcharity is not a firefighter. If Chris he had shown the slightest bit of knowledge on the subject of firefighting so far, I might have let it pass, but his knowledge in this area is mediocre at best.
 
My first-hand knowledge of firefighting is lighting a doozy by accident in the marsh near where I grew up.

OK - so aiming a Roman Candle at my brother and missing isn't exactly "By Accident" but I digress.

I forgot more firefighting procedure than Chris7 will ever know, and I've got ZERO experience in the field.

What I do have, and what makes me light years more qualified, is common sense.
 
Christopher7 said:
WRONG! They predicted the collapse based on the conditions at the time. It is idiotic to think that someone could predict that a building would not collapse when they couldn't even get inside it will collapse 5 hours before it does and your willingness to believe it just proves you will believe anything.
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Fixed that for you.
 
Oz1976 said:
Other firefighters did:

" Anyway, I was looking at WTC7 and I noticed that it wasn’t looking like it was straight. It was really weird. The closest corner to me (the SE corner) was kind of out of whack with the SW corner. It was impossible to tell whether that corner (the SW) was leaning over more or even if it was leaning the other way. With all of the smoke and the debris pile, I couldn’t exactly tell what was going on, but I sure could see the building was leaning over in a way it certainly should not be. I asked another guy looking with me and he said “That building is going to come down, we better get out of here.” So we did. –M.J., Employed at 45 Broadway, in a letter to me."
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That was not a firefighter. It was some guy who worked in the neighborhood.

In all the photos and videos there in no sign of the building leaning.
If the building were leaning NIST would have said so.
This whole leaning thing gets run by one group of deniers after another. It's a silly argument to waste column space and peoples time.
 
Christopher7 said:
That was not a firefighter. It was some guy who worked in the neighborhood.

In all the photos and videos there in no sign of the building leaning.
If the building were leaning NIST would have said so.
This whole leaning thing gets run by one group of deniers after another. It's a silly argument to waste column space and peoples time.
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What did bring the building down,in your opinion?
 
dafydd said:
What did bring the building down,in your opinion?
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I would also like an answer to this question.

Remember: Your answer must come from the NIST data, which you have said is correct.

So, what is it Chris? (Explosives and nanothermite are out.)
 
Christopher7 said:
That was not a firefighter. It was some guy who worked in the neighborhood.
In all the photos and videos there in no sign of the building leaning.
If the building were leaning NIST would have said so.
This whole leaning thing gets run by one group of deniers after another. It's a silly argument to waste column space and peoples time.
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I'd take the word of this firefighter over yours anyday:-




You fail.

Compus
 
triforcharity said:
Do you think the hoses and other equipment could fight fire on it's own?
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You are trying to talk around the fact that you did not know that they used pump trucks to boost the pressure in the 1800' from the fire boats to the WTC.

You have YET to show me that it was possibly to get water from 1800 feet away in the Hudson, to the 12th floor of 7WTC.
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Yes I have. If they delivered over a million gallons a day it was obviously at high pressure.

In addition, at the beginning of this argument gave the stats for a 1000 gpm pump truck. It could provide 700gpm at 124 psi to the 12th floor thru the standpipe system. If you really are a firefighter then you know that the standpipes come off a manifold and are independent of each other.

Start with the Fireboat Harvey.

Tell me how many feet of 6" hose you have to lay before your next pumper.
Then the next.
And the next.
And then the next.
And then the next.
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Stupid question. They did in fact deliver millions of gallons so why are you still asking how?
 
Christopher7 said:
That was not a firefighter. It was some guy who worked in the neighborhood.
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Source?

In all the photos and videos there in no sign of the building leaning.
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There were no photos of me taking a shower an hour ago. Does that mean it didn't happen?

If the building were leaning NIST would have said so.
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Argument from lack of evidence.

This whole leaning thing gets run by one group of deniers after another. It's a silly argument to waste column space and peoples time.
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So the actual firefighters who said the building was critically damaged is entirely irrelevant.

Once again, you ignore the consequences of your claim about the pressure. Either the FDNY was in on it, or not. Neither is a conclusion, so the premise must be false.
 
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