Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Kestrel]

Putting Meredith in the cottage at 8:56 when the phone call home was aborted is dependent on the presentation of the time stamp on the CCTV footage of Meredith crossing the street and adjusted for the slow CCTV clock determined by the captured arrival of the police.. Nobody has yet produced a frame from this footage showing the actual time stamp, we only have the presentation in court that alleged what time it occurred. If the prosecution had already adjusted this time assuming a fast CCTV clock, Meredith would actually be crossing the street around 9:05 so the aborted call would have already been passed.

There should exist a full frame from that CCTV footage that shows the CCTV clock time with the figure crossing the street. The police had to collect this in order to get the images we've seen. Is there some reason the prosecution felt it was necessary to loose this evidence before they made their presentation in court?

We know from the testimony of Meredith's friends when she left for the cottage. The CCTV timestamp doesn't match up with when she would have arrived unless the camera clock is roughly 10 minutes behind the actual time. But in order to prove that Raffaele called the police after the police arrived the next day, the camera clock has to be about 10 minutes fast instead of 10 minutes slow.

 

[HumanityBlues]

Speaking of budget cuts being the reason they didn't record the interrogation.....how much did this cartoon cost? http://video.foxnews.com/v/1009524012001

 

[Dan O.]

I suspect that his last time reference would have been either just before or after he entered Filomena's room (in order to keep a running note of how long he had been inside the cottage), or perhaps when he was sitting on the toilet. I'm not even sure if he was wearing a watch. He very likely wasn't carrying a mobile phone, which would have been a potential source of the time.

According to Rudy, his last time reference was what was playing when he left his own apartment earlier that evening. Rudy himself says he doesn't wear a watch and didn't have a phone. The only time reference Rudy would have in conjunction with the murder would be from Meredith's phones.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

It is indeed. I would love to see you develop this argument.

Perhaps I will. But in another thread.

 

[RoseMontague]

Perhaps I will. But in another thread.

Perhaps you could use the two songs Helter Skelter and All You Need Is Love as a basis for your OP. Or you may prefer mud wrestling. Just be yourself.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Perhaps you could use the two songs Helter Skelter and All You Need Is Love as a basis for your OP. Or you may prefer mud wrestling. Just be yourself.

I see the Helter Skelter connection, but the other two make no sense.

 

[snook1]

You're right - she only killed one person, instead of six. Well, technically Manson didn't kill anyone, he just ordered the killings. So, one could argue that Knox is actually worse than Manson.

Don't you remember that there's nothing to tie Knox with the murder room? Don't you remember that even the prosecutor said that he CAN'T place Amanda Knox in that room? How did she kill Meredith when there's nothing that proves it? How?

 

[zeb]

Speaking of budget cuts being the reason they didn't record the interrogation.....how much did this cartoon cost? http://video.foxnews.com/v/1009524012001

Very good point.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Don't you remember that there's nothing to tie Knox with the murder room? Don't you remember that even the prosecutor said that he CAN'T place Amanda Knox in that room? How did she kill Meredith when there's nothing that proves it? How?

 

[Danceme]

Is there a better picture of this? I logged in to see it, and all I saw was about a 1"X2" little picture and I saw maybe a dark thin thing in a bag, but no blond(e) hair.

As for the black hair, I think that was something Frank noted originally way back in his archives when the police were talking about their first clues, before they even arrested Amanda. He mentioned it later as well, though I don't know if it would be available in the restored archives or not.

The picture was posted by Jools at 3:15 yesterday in the latest thread over there. There are two closeups of her hand before it was bagged.

Here's a photo of Meredith taken on the night before her murder:

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_402374e01aa97506c9.jpg[/qimg]


Blonde-tinted areas can clearly be seen - particularly running all the way down the hair on the front right side (as we look at it), and on some hair visible at the bottom left. I would say this constitutes strong evidence that Meredith had blonde/brown highlights in her hair. I would also imagine that microscopic analysis would have been able to determine whether this was Meredith's hair, based on thickness, opacity and interior colour.

So I would agree with you that there's a fair likelihood that this hair was Meredith's - even if it has an apparent blonde/brown colouration. This is especially likely when considered against the fact that some of Meredith's hair was clearly pulled out during the struggle that led to her death.

But I'd reiterate that unless the hair had been tested and shown to be most likely Knox's, then it's of no probative value against Knox in any case. It either was tested and shown to be of no value, or it was lost before it was tested. Take your pick...

Yes it likely could have been Meredith's own hair, from the blond highlighted sections. I believe it is pretty difficult to determine ownership of hair without the root attached for DNA testing but because we know there were plenty of other hairs from Meredith on the floor it has a good probability of being hers. What it is not is kinky and black. I wonder how that rumour started.

 

[spartacus]

I think it's entirely reasonable to suppose that the initial confrontation consisted of nothing more than raised voices. And it's also (in my view) entirely reasonable to suppose that if Guede gained control of Meredith with a knife at her throat, she wouldn't have screamed at that point either.

My best guess (and one which I think is totally reasonable) is that the initial confrontation occurred at or very shortly after 8.56pm. I think there was a period of verbal confrontation (about 3-5 minutes), perhaps during which Guede attempted to talk his way out of the situation. After that, i think Guede made a physical move on Meredith - perhaps as she indicated that she was going to call the police. I think that if he had produced his knife at that point, Meredith would probably have remained relatively submissive - which would be her logical best option if she thought that Guede either wanted to show her he meant business, or if she thought Guede wanted to forcibly obtain her keys (and maybe also rob her

I think that once Guede got her onto all fours, he started the preparations for his sexual assault, by removing his trousers and starting to remove her clothing - doing so with one hand while the other hand held her round the neck with the knife against the side of her neck. I think that Meredith might have resisted at this point, when she realised that a sexual assault was inevitable. I believe that she either screamed at that point, or that she struggled and Guede made the first stab into her neck, which is what made her scream out (on balance, i tend towards the latter). Either way, I think the scream is what made Guede perform the deeper fatal stab wound.

So I think that it's entirely reasonable to tally an initial confrontation at (or very shorty after) 8.56pm with a loud scream at some time after 9pm, and for that scream to have been virtually concurrent with the fatal stab wounds to the neck.

I would put it like this. Rudy broke in and was going to the toilet when Meredith arrived home and entered her room. She made the call to her mother. Rudy appeared or she heard him and cut the call to investigate. There was a conversion, since they recognized each other. He propositioned her and/or made an excuse. She told him to leave. He made a sexual advance on her, pinned her on the ground, and straddled her, attempting to force her to perform oral sex (hey, it worked for DSK, right?). She might have screamed then. When she resisted, he attempted to put a knife to her throat to make her submit. She wriggled around and got cut. He may have retrieved towels and tried to staunch the blood, and then pinned her down and raped her. Realizing he was in trouble, he stabbed her again.

Thinking about it from his perspective, he had to make up a story that would explain the evidence he thought would be brought against him, i.e. a scream, his bloody foot and handprints. This story could or could have happened with "Ciccione" his accomplice.

 

[spartacus]

Is he a member of this forum?

I don't know, why? Are you thinking of tracking him down and making ad hominem attacks?

 

[LondonJohn]

The picture was posted by Jools at 3:15 yesterday in the latest thread over there. There are two closeups of her hand before it was bagged.



Yes it likely could have been Meredith's own hair, from the blond highlighted sections. I believe it is pretty difficult to determine ownership of hair without the root attached for DNA testing but because we know there were plenty of other hairs from Meredith on the floor it has a good probability of being hers. What it is not is kinky and black. I wonder how that rumour started.

Well, many of the press articles published in the week after the murder mention the hairs in Meredith's hand quite prominently, e.g.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2862541.ece


But one Telegraph article offers an intriguing addition. It was published on 12th November 2007, filed by a reporter who was in Perugia, and it contains the following paragraph, referring to Lumumba (my bolding):

However, police said Lumumba's mobile phone had connected with the transmitter in the region of Miss Kercher's house at 8.39 that night. They have also taken some strands of "medium-length" hair from his head for analysis.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1569137/Meredith-murder-suspect-withdraws-confession.html

One can only assume that the reporter was told this information by a police or prosecution source (the only other possibility is that he made it up out of thin air). Why would the police be taking Lumumba's hair for analysis if the only hair they had was in long, straight, brown strands - and therefore couldn't possibly have come from Lumumba?

 

[Chris C]

The picture was posted by Jools at 3:15 yesterday in the latest thread over there. There are two closeups of her hand before it was bagged.



Yes it likely could have been Meredith's own hair, from the blond highlighted sections. I believe it is pretty difficult to determine ownership of hair without the root attached for DNA testing but because we know there were plenty of other hairs from Meredith on the floor it has a good probability of being hers. What it is not is kinky and black. I wonder how that rumour started.

Yeah I do agree. If there was even a remote chance it was Knox's it would have been enterred into evidence as being consistent with Knox's hair color and hair type. As for the black hairs. I do believe that was released by the police early on.

 

[LondonJohn]

By the way, in answer to the question about matching hair to suspects/victim/other etc, it's true that the hair strand is composed of keratinised protein strands, which contain no DNA, and that only the hair follicle itself contains DNA. Therefore, unless the hair has been pulled out follicle and all (which is rare), one cannot use crime scene hair for DNA analysis.

But there are other ways of matching hair that are admittedly less precise than DNA matching, but are nonetheless very useful for both inclusion and exclusion purposes. These methods mainly involve examining the hair strands under a comparator microscope, where the crime scene hair can be viewed directly next to hair from potential matches. Hair diameter can be matched with a fairly high degree of accuracy (different people, even within the same racial group, have significantly different thickness of head hair), and other factors such as opacity and colour can be compared.

 

[spartacus]

Why would the police be taking Lumumba's hair for analysis if the only hair they had was in long, straight, brown strands - and therefore couldn't possibly have come from Lumumba?

One of the early leaks that was reported in BN book was that the police found a "wooly fiber". I think this was later reported to be just that, a "wooly fiber".

Whatever they found talking about missing blonde hairs is a hail mary pass that interestingly involves checking with the investigative source directly, i.e. BN. I think she has joined the cool-aid club by constantly tweeting about baby killers. Hellmann actually countered the prosecution/Maresca tactic of claiming that the witnesses had slander charges filed against them (on behalf of Rudy, no less) and that they didn't have to speak by ruling that they would in fact have to speak. Only the Albanian caved to the prosecutor tactic and clammed up. Alviello was more of a grand stander there to denounce the 'system' in general and wasn't taken seriously, I don't think. Also, in spite of what the bunnies and rabbits are saying, the judge did tell Maresca to sit down when he pulled his pull out the picture of the child victim stunt. I noticed that one of the posters here pulled the same stunt the other day.

 

[lane99]

...How is DA related to this case? Is the boyfriend claiming to have suffered from it? If so, I think such a "diagnosis" is not required to explain the confusion he experienced.

As I said above the police interpreter/mediator told AK that she broke her ankle and couldn't remember to "prime" her to come up with memories for things that she couldn't remember because she was suppossedly traumatized.

Oh, ic, it's specifically related to Knox, not the boyfriend. I misunderstood, because the name of the webpage that is the destination of your "dissociate amnesia" link is something like "Raffele's Appeal".

Yes, I wouldn't be surprised if the cops use the "repressed memories" scam on Knox. It's a common ploy. Which, in a roundabout way, can sometimes elicit accurate information. Although it can also lead to false confessions, if the police are not vigilant.

BTW, "Priming" her to come us with memories. I like that turn of phrase. Hits the nail on the head.

 

[Draca]

Putting Meredith in the cottage at 8:56 when the phone call home was aborted is dependent on the presentation of the time stamp on the CCTV footage of Meredith crossing the street and adjusted for the slow CCTV clock determined by the captured arrival of the police.. Nobody has yet produced a frame from this footage showing the actual time stamp, we only have the presentation in court that alleged what time it occurred. If the prosecution had already adjusted this time assuming a fast CCTV clock, Meredith would actually be crossing the street around 9:05 so the aborted call would have already been passed.

There should exist a full frame from that CCTV footage that shows the CCTV clock time with the figure crossing the street. The police had to collect this in order to get the images we've seen. Is there some reason the prosecution felt it was necessary to loose this evidence before they made their presentation in court?

Dan O.,

We've discussed this before and I'm not sure why you are resistant to what I've presented here - http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7088640&postcount=924

There isn't a screen capture of the CCTV time that we know of, but it was presented in court on March 13, 2009 by officer Mauro Barbadori that the time was 8:41 p.m. I would think in court they would have seen the time. Plus there was no reason for the police to hide the time at that point because they were still trying to say the clock was 10 minutes slow at that point. Early Nov 2007 reports said 8:43 p.m. which is close to the official time given in court.

The post given above includes links to news reports about the court testimony. Is there a reason you don't accept the time stamp as being 8:41 p.m.?

The clock was 10 -12 minutes slow based on the Sollecito postal police arrival defense presentation, so the actual CCTV time for the image is 8:51 p.m. - 8:53 p.m.

 

[lane99]

I think what I find strange is the vehemence, and the obsession (to the point of setting up dedicated web sites and forums for goodness sake), and the sheer vindictive hate directed against someone who is already being punished, if she is indeed guilty.

I don't recall ever feeling that aerated about someone I believed had been justly convicted of a murder. I mean - why? They were caught, fine, move on.

In the situation where the judicial process is actually still ongoing and it seems impossible for any rational observer to be 100% sure of guilt, I find it downright creepy.

And attacking people for highlighting what they see as a miscarriage of justice, well that's just bizarre. Writing to employers? What is motivating this, for goodness sake?

Rolfe.

Many of them seem to be lonely, depressed and, most decidingly, bitter people who envy the attention that Knox gets and are lashing out.

Then you have the groupies (that most high profile cases attract). Such as the "moderator" of the Per-woo-gia Files website who seems to be infatuated with Rudy Guede and apparently fantasizes about Guede coming to live with him when he is released from prison.

 

[spartacus]

Oh, ic, it's specifically related to Knox, not the boyfriend. I misunderstood, because the name of the webpage that is the destination of your "dissociate amnesia" link is something like "Raffele's Appeal".

Yes, I wouldn't be surprised if the cops use the "repressed memories" scam on Knox. It's a common ploy. Which, in a roundabout way, can sometimes elicit accurate information. Although it can also lead to false confessions, if the police are not vigilant.

BTW, "Priming" her to come us with memories. I like that turn of phrase. Hits the nail on the head.

Sorry, here is the correct link for dissociative amnesia. BTW, there wasn't any evidence for dissociative amnesia in this case in my opinion, but there is evidence of coerced false confession. Namely in the police saying things over and over and getting AK to talk about what she imagined happened, combined with telling her they had "proof" she was there and her boyfriend didn't go along with her aliby. She never considered the possibility that the police may be lying to her/manipulating and after a while she forgot whether the imaginings/police repeating came from her head or somewhere else.