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Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

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Oh, one more point, Bunny: The Soviets would have referred to 18,000 Soviet citizens shot at Rostov or otherwise killed as just that — Soviet citizens. They wouldn't have referred to them as Russians, unless they were making an entirely different point.

N'est-ce pas?
 
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I would never say they were powerful evidence against mass homicide, I am just saying they are weak evidence for mass homicide. They would certainly be consistent with mass homicide.
I must have not understood this earlier post of yours, which characterized the absence of gold teeth in the plunder lists NO-061 and NO-062:
And if there is no obvious entry for gold teeth, would that not provide powerful evidence against mass homicide in AR?

You seem to be shy about answering questions, or to have a strong preference for asking them. Anyway . . .
Mr Caution, can you clarify your position on the dental gold and the AR final statement.

Are you saying dental gold is on the final statement, if so what entry or included under what camoflague entry?
Of course not. You should read what I posted more carefully.

Or are you saying dental gold was deliberately excluded from the final profit statements. If so, why?
Given the other powerful evidence in favor of dental gold and its handling, I assume gold from teeth was lumped in with precious metals in the listing. In reports made in bureaucratic milieus, decisions about categories and groupings, sometimes truncating details and sometimes highlighting them, are common. And, as in this case, different decisions are made at different times; thus, in some documents the source of the gold is broken out (e.g., the directives memorandum from Frank), in others it isn't. To take a different example of this, neither NO-061 nor NO-062 mentions "women's hair" among the loot, whilst NO-1257 does so.

By quoting back to us the document, and asking me what you are to make of the point about Jewish stars, you avoid, of course, making any answer.

What do you make of the subject line?
"Betr.: Verwertung des Besitzes anlaesslich der An- und Aussiedlung der Juden"

"An" prefix has the strong conotation of a settlement into a defined locality, I think.
It is no surprise, nor is it incongruent with mass extermination, that Frank used the common euphemism of resettlement action. If you truly believe the nonsense you wrote about a defined locality, please define it for us. Where were the people--and not a handful of people--whose plunder is listed taken to and resettled, without any possessions at all, judging from the lists?

I will underscore that it is a rather strange evacuation that is camouflaged in one instance as confiscations from criminals and includes stripping the evacuees of their clothing, the females of their hair, and those with dental work of their gold teeth.

(We have been over and over this, as you know, euphemistic language in bureaucracy and the Third Reich as well as the destination of the supposedly resettled Jews. I am surprised you'd raise the latter, given your epic failures on the matter, which stand alongside OSR 24 as testimony to your dishonesty and bankruptcy.)
 
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NO-1287 includes 3000 kg of women's hair from Auschwitz and Lublin and their subcamps. It probably would be easily covered by their regular inmate population without recourse to deportees. As I understand schools also collected hair - as they did in WWI also.

Given the other powerful evidence in favor of dental gold and its handling, I assume gold from teeth was lumped in with precious metals in the listing. In reports made in bureaucratic milieus, decisions about categories and groupings, sometimes truncating details and sometimes highlighting them, are common. And, as in this case, different decisions are made at different times; thus, in some documents the source of the gold is broken out (e.g., the directives memorandum from Frank), in others it isn't. To take a different example of this, neither NO-061 nor NO-062 mentions "women's hair" among the loot, whilst NO-1257 does so.

So, and you must think me very slow here, you do think dental gold is included in the closure report, are you ready to reveal which line you think it is included under?
 
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NO-1287 includes 3000 kg of women's hair from Auschwitz and Lublin and their subcamps. It probably would be easily covered by their regular inmate population without recourse to deportees. As I understand schools also collected hair - as they did in WWI also.
So? My point was that lists contain different levels of detail.

Sticking with this elementary idea, which you seem to want to ignore, Frank's memo NO-724 doesn't mention human hair. But collection of human hair was already ordered by Glucks in August 1942 (USSR-511).

The other obvious point I am making, connected with the above and irrelevant to the little game you're trying here, is that if dental gold is sometimes not mentioned specifically in reports (and human hair, etc.), it sometimes is, and I see no reason to re-cite the examples previously given of its being mentioned.

Also, according to Hilberg dental gold was mentioned in loot sent from "Auschwitz" and "Lublin" to the Melmer hoard, in a statement by Thoms, PS-3951.

Nor was the looting of gold teeth restricted to "Lublin"; rather, it was normal procedure, as Birkenau SK (Filip Mueller) also recount.

That the Jews were "sent off" in the most abject state is underscored, of course, by Pohl's report to Himmler of 6 February 1943 in which the entry "Rags" trumps all other categories of items taken from Jews and measured in "freight cars."
 
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Mr Caution, do you think dental gold was included in the final reporting NO-61 and NO-62 or not?

If you do, which line do you think it is contained in?

Best regards
Grey.
 
Where conspiracy theories touch each other

This is not about Holocaust denial neither about 9/11 conspiracies, but indirectly it is.

Many states have Holocaust denial laws. In practice (Germany) every deviation from some undefined official version (assuming 5.999.999 victims instead of 6.000.000) can bring anyone into jail for years. Courts refuse to discuss details, claiming everything to be "openly obvious" (offenkundig), lawyers demanding to submit evidence are jailed too. The article in the law, obliging courts to accept evidence even against topics being regarded to be "offenkundig" is rejected in the case of the Holocaust and the highest court recently has confirmed those rejections because: " It was always handled this way by lower courts". In the absence of any official definition ANYTHING being said or written about the Holocaust in theory can bring any citizen into jail. It is also agianst the law to compare (e.g. with other genocides) or trivialize the event. The newest juridical perversion is announced by sentencing those, writing about any genocide and not mentioning that the Holocaust was much worse.

That is clearly obvious (offenkundig) a totalitarian tool in a so called free democracy. Other known totalitarian anti democratic tools are released after terrorist attacks, laws cutting off liberties of the citizens under the cover of anti terror legislation.

What is a matter of concern: All major western states, not having anti Holocaust denial legislation (England, Spain, USA) during a relatively short period became victims of terrorist attacks.

Countries having anti-Holocaust-denial-laws didn't have those attacks.

Is this coincidence by chance or conspiracy by the ruling powers?
 
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My point is, General Kittel had every reason to be very cooperative with the Psychological Warfare Executive. And with good results for him personally, because despite being named by the Russians as a major war criminal he was allowed to die peacefully in his own home after an uneventful retirement.

Stop making stuff up - for someone who is so sure you know the truth you sure do lie a lot to make a point
 
May I ask if you yourself live in Germany?

I do. Your post is a little exaggerated. One will not go to jail just because one says one of the mentioned things. However, one will be very very heavily criticized and looked down upon in society.

Are you actually wondering why this law exists?

Go to Germany and mention the word nazi. Here we have an extreme Nazi-phobia, everyone constantly wants to prove he is not in any way racist or a nazi. There is still a lot of guilt. Many foreigners don't quite understand that.

How this can be formed into a conspiracy by "the ruling powers", is beyond me.

But I agree. The German laws are exaggerated. However for obvious reasons. And I don't think anyone suffers because I, or the "official story" says it was 6 million while it in reality may have been 5,860.000.

You either have never been in Germany or have a poor understanding of what happened here after WWII.
 
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Countries having anti-Holocaust-denial-laws didn't have those attacks.

Is this coincidence by chance or conspiracy by the ruling powers?

Well, since coincidence doesn't exist it has to be the latter option.
And then it's only a matter of 'qui bono'. Who benefits of anti holocaust-denial laws? The Jews of course. No surprise there either.

What does bother me is that in these so-called terrorist-attacks they left no hint to the real reason. So the countries that fell victim to these attacks have no clue how to prevent further attacks and will not consider introducing anti holocaust-denial laws as a result.

But I'm happy you figured this out.
 
So you are implying that the Jews attacked America because we don't have those laws.

Israel has such a law. Why do you suppose they have people with bombs strapped to their chests? Aren't you surprised Jews enjoy destroying their own coutry?
 
There's a useful tool for analysing conspiracist claims, called the Time To First Lie. The shorter the time to the first outright, blatant and obvious lie, the less reliable the claims that follow.

This is not about Holocaust denial neither about 9/11 conspiracies, but indirectly it is.

Many states have Holocaust denial laws. In practice (Germany) every deviation from some undefined official version (assuming 5.999.999 victims instead of 6.000.000) can bring anyone into jail for years.

Ooh, look. Third sentence.

Dave
 
What is a matter of concern: All major western states, not having anti Holocaust denial legislation (England, Spain, USA) during a relatively short period became victims of terrorist attacks.

Blimey, that's selective.
Both Spain and the UK have had terrorist attacks for decades.

More importantly, why is Spain considered a major western state, but not Italy, Canada, or various Scandinavian states?
 
There's a useful tool for analysing conspiracist claims, called the Time To First Lie. The shorter the time to the first outright, blatant and obvious lie, the less reliable the claims that follow.



Ooh, look. Third sentence.

Dave



I'd dispute "third" on that.

This is not about Holocaust denial neither about 9/11 conspiracies, but indirectly it is.


First sentence. This pretty much is about Holocaust denial and 9/11, directly. He concludes that 9/11 happened because the Jews were annoyed the US doesn't have laws against Holocaust denial.
 
I'd dispute "third" on that.

Since you have to read a bit further to find out that the first sentence is a lie, I'd exclude it on the basis that it isn't obvious.

The second paragraph looks like a complete pack of outright lies to me. I'd like to see the OP's evidence that someone's been convicted of Holocaust denial on the basis that they wrote about an act of genocide and failed to claim that the Holocaust was much worse, if only so that we can all see how blatantly it doesn't say what the OP says it does.

Dave
 
The second paragraph looks like a complete pack of outright lies to me. I'd like to see the OP's evidence that someone's been convicted of Holocaust denial on the basis that they wrote about an act of genocide and failed to claim that the Holocaust was much worse, if only so that we can all see how blatantly it doesn't say what the OP says it does.

Dave



Indeed. I was tempted to quote each line, with "Cite?" after it.
 
Many states have Holocaust denial laws. In practice (Germany) every deviation from some undefined official version (assuming 5.999.999 victims instead of 6.000.000) can bring anyone into jail for years. Courts refuse to discuss details, claiming everything to be "openly obvious" (offenkundig), lawyers demanding to submit evidence are jailed too. The article in the law, obliging courts to accept evidence even against topics being regarded to be "offenkundig" is rejected in the case of the Holocaust and the highest court recently has confirmed those rejections because: " It was always handled this way by lower courts". In the absence of any official definition ANYTHING being said or written about the Holocaust in theory can bring any citizen into jail. It is also agianst the law to compare (e.g. with other genocides) or trivialize the event. The newest juridical perversion is announced by sentencing those, writing about any genocide and not mentioning that the Holocaust was much worse.

That is clearly obvious (offenkundig) a totalitarian tool in a so called free democracy.

Typical BS taken straight from the Holocaust Denier book-of-fabricated-nonsense-that-is-routinely-trotted-out-to-poison-the-well, with no basis at all in reality.

Most Holocaust Deniers are at least honest about their denial. Why not you?
 
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