Vaccine/autism CT discussion

[tsig]

I was revolted by an obvious lie.

People tearfully confessing?

GAG, GAG.

AmandaM deliberately lied?

 

[ElMondoHummus]

Regardless of what AmandaM's anecdote contained, the fact remains: Multiple studies comparing vaccinated and unvaccinated children showed zero difference in autism rates. I cited two, and also linked to more possible ones above and beyond those (see previous post). Anecdote may not be reliable as indicators of general trends, but hard counts are. And they most certainly show no difference.

 

[Clayton Moore]

AmandaM deliberately lied?

Of course not. She sleep posted.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Regardless of what AmandaM's anecdote contained, the fact remains: Multiple studies comparing vaccinated and unvaccinated children showed zero difference in autism rates. I cited two, and also linked to more possible ones above and beyond those (see previous post). Anecdote may not be reliable as indicators of general trends, but hard counts are. And they most certainly show no difference.

Quote:

The latest study exonerating the MMR vaccine comes from Denmark, where investigators looked at the health records of every child born from 1991 through '98, more than 537,000 children. No matter how researchers analyzed the data, there was no difference in the autism rates of children who received the MMR vaccine and those who did not.

The Danish findings, which were published in the New England Journal of Medicine last week, are persuasive for several reasons. Denmark's socialized medical system has generated one of the most complete health records of any country. So the investigators were able to document accurately both sides of the equation: those who were (or were not) vaccinated and those who developed autism. Even when other factors, such as age at vaccination, were taken into account, there was no difference in autism rates between vaccinated and unvaccinated children. There was no clustering of autism diagnoses in the weeks and months after vaccination. There was no difference in the number of diagnoses of other developmental disorders related to autism in the vaccinated and unvaccinated groups.

What's wrong with the above picture?
http://www.vaccineinfo.net/immunization/injury/autism/DanishMMRAutismStudy.shtml

We feel very strongly that it is erroneous for the study's authors to conclude that since the children in the Danish study did not show an increased incidence of autism after MMR vaccine that the same would hold true for all children. They have not satisfied the question of the MMR vaccine's potential role as a trigger amidst other environmental factors including previously administered mercury containing vaccines that have been given to children outside of their population. It is entirely possible, but not yet studied by the CDC, that a child's immune response, inhibited by the elevated mercury levels from thimerosal-containing vaccinations, has less ability to respond to the measles virus in the MMR vaccine. This might be an explanation for the presence of measles virus cultured from the brains and guts of 80 percent of autistic children. However, we are grateful for their idemiological research and hopeful that it will spur the absent and yet much needed biological mechanism research here in the United States.

 

[Clayton Moore]

MMR Overload From Mother to Baby?

An Invitation to Participate in a Study Investigating One Potential Relationship Between the MMR Vaccine and Autism

From: Dawn Richardson, President
PROVE(Parents Requesting Open Vaccine Education)

I recently received a request for assistance from a very kind pediatrician who specializes in infectious diseases and is the grandfather of two autistic children. He is very confident the MMR vaccine can be a contributing factor for the development of autistic tendencies in some families, including his own, and is committed to gathering the preliminary data to help shine the spotlight on this national epidemic to ultimately support the parental right for informed consent for this and other vaccines. I've read some of his articles and we've spoken on the phone, and his knowledge and passionate commitment is impressive. SO PLEASE ASK EVERY MOTHER YOU KNOW, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER OR NOT SHE HAS AN AUTISTIC CHILD, IF SHE HAS RECEIVED AN MMR BOOSTER AFTER 16 YEARS OLD. If she has, please invite her to participate. Below is a brief outline of his study and the aspects of the relationship he is investigating. At the very bottom of this note is a short confidential survey (you don't need to identify yourself if you don't want to) to be filled out by mothers who received booster MMR shots after 16. The surveys should be returned immediately to TLAutStudy@aol.com or printed and mailed to:

F. Edward Yazbak, MD, FAAP
TLAutStudy
Box 770
West Falmouth, MA 02574-0770

We have two autistic grand children, and we are devoting our lives to find the cause of their illness.

We are not looking for, and we will not accept, any financial gain from this study, or from any other work we do, in the fight against autism.

We would like to investigate one unique aspect of the MMR controversy, never examined to date.

Some mothers, who have been immunized as youngsters, against Measles, Mumps and Rubella, either with single vaccines, or with the MMR, are found to have inadequate Rubella (German Measles ) titres when they are tested before they get married, or during a pregnancy. MMR vaccine is then usually administered to them, usually at an appropriate, and recommended time.

Sometimes, after that booster, some of these mothers still do not show immune titres of rubella antibodies, and another MMR is administered. We think that it is possible that some of these mothers have produced sky high titres of antibodies against Measles, which they subsequently have transferred to their children. ( Note that they could have already had adequate or high measles antibody titres, before the MMR booster or boosters.) Similarly, many women starting college, are required to receive an MMR booster, regardless of their immune status.

Distinguished investigators in the Unites States, have demonstrated extremely high measles antibody titres, in mothers of autistic children ( and in the affected children themselves ).

If we can identify a large number of mothers, who have received such MMR boosters, we can then look and see if they were more liable to have autistic children.

http://www.vaccineinfo.net/immunization/injury/autism/autismstudy.shtml

 

[Scott Sommers]

Clayton, I'd still like to understand better what you meant earlier about how it only takes "basic intelligence" to understand this link between vaccination and the health problems you mention. I'm clear that you don't think there's any need to understand research methodology and statistics to get a clear picture on this - even on the studies that use these techniques to create results. Do you need to be able to read and write or do basic arithmetic? Could someone who doesn't even know what a vaccine is understand this link? What are some other things in life that this 'basic intelligence' would teach us?

 

[TSR]

http://www.vaccineinfo.net/immunization/injury/autism/autismstudy.shtml

Which leads to a page in which it is stated that this study took place no later than 2008, and links to another site for the results ...



Which aren't there.

What is there are pitches for the website's merchandise, including books detailing how magnets will help you live forever. The star of the site makes a point of touting his PhD, neglecting to mention that it is not any sort of science degree, since the college that awarded it is not accredited for that. There are many problems with this person's thesis, which included no original research of any value.

If this is ringing a bell for the long-timers here, it should: the person is Gary Null -- those unfamiliar should check out his hits on QuackWatch.


Why don't you give us the medical journal in which these results were published, CM? Was the information in the surveys confirmed independently?





No?




Then what, exactly, does your post demonstrate regarding the topic of this thread?

 

[Tomblvd]

Then what, exactly, does your post demonstrate regarding the topic of this thread?

In his furious googling to dig himself out of the hole he's dug, he's found a brand new website to quote?

 

[Scott Sommers]

Gary Null

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Null

Gary Null is also a promoter of AIDS denialism, the belief that HIV is harmless or does not exist, and is not the cause of AIDS. Null sells self-produced films on his website that promote AIDS denialism.[6]

 

[carlitos]

I think it's an act. No one could post such a tragic combination of ignorant, self-confident and caustic ideas, only seemingly tied together by some vague goal of being counter to mainstream thought.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Null

His last link, with the logic of "sure, the Danish kids prove otherwise, so let's move the goalposts and hypothesize that maybe it's some kind of build up from earlier mercury ( ) containing immunizations from the mother or something..." reminded me straight away of the AIDS / HIV deniers. Sadly, most of them are dead. Equally sadly, Gary Null continues to draw breath.

 

[ElMondoHummus]

Back to the mercury/thiomerasol argument again?

http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/index.php?s=omnibus&x=33&y=14

• Continuing increases in autism reported to California’s developmental services system: mercury in retrograde
  Schechter and Grether, 2008, Archives of General Psychiatry. 65(1):19-24
  Study analyzed autism client data from the California Department of Developmental Services between 1995 and 2007. Even though thimerosal was absent from scheduled childhood vaccines after 2002, cases of autism continued to climb quarter by quarter.
  AUTHOR CONCLUSION: The California DDS data do not show any recent decrease in autism in California despite the exclusion of more than trace levels of thimerosal from nearly all childhood vaccines. The data do not support the hypothesis that exposure to thimerosal during childhood is a primary cause of autism.
• Thimerosal and the Occurrence of Autism: Negative Ecological Evidence From Danish Population-Based Data
  Madsen et al., Pediatrics; Vol. 112 No. 3, 2003, pp. 604-606
  Analyzed data from the Danish Psychiatric Central Research Register recording all psychiatric admissions since 1971, and all outpatient contacts in psychiatric departments in Denmark since 1995. There was no trend toward an increase in the incidence of autism during that period when thimerosal was used in Denmark, up through 1990. From 1991 until 2000 the incidence increased and continued to rise after the removal of thimerosal from vaccines, including increases among children born after the discontinuation of thimerosal.
  AUTHOR CONCLUSION: The discontinuation of thimerosal-containing vaccines in Denmark in 1992 was followed by an increase in the incidence of autism. The data do not support a correlation between thimerosal-containing vaccines and the incidence of autism.
• Association Between Thimerosal-Containing Vaccine and Autism
  Hviid et al., Journal of the American Medical Association, 2003; 290(13):1763-6
  Study of 467,000 children born in Denmark between 1990 and 1996 compared children who were vaccinated with a thimerosal-containing vaccine to children who received a thimerosal-free formulation of the same vaccine. The risk of autism and other autism spectrum disorders did not differ significantly between children vaccinated with thimerosal-containing vaccine and children vaccinated with thimerosal-free vaccine.
  AUTHOR CONCLUSION: The results do not support a causal relationship between childhood vaccination with thimerosal-containing vaccines and development of autistic-spectrum disorders.

... and so on. If CM wants to move the goalposts back, someone should tell him others have already scored on it in the spot he moved it to.

 

[000063]

We often hear of adults getting a flu VACCINE shot and having a fever or other mild flu like symptoms.

Fever. Isn't that what causes seizures?

No, it's what causes an increased body temperature. Everything else varies. Your disingenuous assertions and rhetorical tricks are really transparent.

 

[000063]

So you think the throw weight of the medical community can't figure out why toddlers world wide are becoming brain damaged between the age of 18 months and 2 years old?

Hang on, I just want to make a point.

So you think the throw weight of the medical community can't figure out a cure for cancer?

Exact same rhetorical value as your post.

 

[000063]

Quote:

http://www.vaccineinfo.net/immunization/injury/autism/DanishMMRAutismStudy.shtml

They have not satisfied the question of the MMR vaccine's potential role as a trigger amidst other environmental factors including previously administered mercury containing vaccines that have been given to children outside of their population.

So when the CDC makes a study proving that there's no link between Autism and Vaccines, the claim promptly switches from "vaccines alone" to "vaccines and other factors".

That is a textbook case of Moving the Goalposts. If you are proved wrong on terms, simply change the terms, while refusing to admit you were wrong. The "other environmental factors" is so vague as to refer to pretty much anything. You could be talking about latex gloves+MMR, for pete's sake. This is a particularly efficient MoG, because to satisfy it would require testing MMR in combination with absolutely everything.

 

[Giordano]

So when the CDC makes a study proving that there's no link between Autism and Vaccines, the claim promptly switches from "vaccines alone" to "vaccines and other factors".

That is a textbook case of Moving the Goalposts. If you are proved wrong on terms, simply change the terms, while refusing to admit you were wrong. The "other environmental factors" is so vague as to refer to pretty much anything. You could be talking about latex gloves+MMR, for pete's sake. This is a particularly efficient MoG, because to satisfy it would require testing MMR in combination with absolutely everything.

Darn- I don't mind him moving the goalposts half as much as the fact that after he's moved them a few times, they're back where they started and we've circled the stadium. It is more like a track meet than a football game. Several posts ago I predicted we would be back to mercury; it happened even faster than I thought.

 

[Scott Sommers]

Back to the mercury/thiomerasol argument again?

http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/index.php?s=omnibus&x=33&y=14

• Continuing increases in autism reported to California’s developmental services system: mercury in retrograde
  Schechter and Grether, 2008, Archives of General Psychiatry. 65(1):19-24
  Study analyzed autism client data from the California Department of Developmental Services between 1995 and 2007. Even though thimerosal was absent from scheduled childhood vaccines after 2002, cases of autism continued to climb quarter by quarter.
  AUTHOR CONCLUSION: The California DDS data do not show any recent decrease in autism in California despite the exclusion of more than trace levels of thimerosal from nearly all childhood vaccines. The data do not support the hypothesis that exposure to thimerosal during childhood is a primary cause of autism.
• Thimerosal and the Occurrence of Autism: Negative Ecological Evidence From Danish Population-Based Data
  Madsen et al., Pediatrics; Vol. 112 No. 3, 2003, pp. 604-606
  Analyzed data from the Danish Psychiatric Central Research Register recording all psychiatric admissions since 1971, and all outpatient contacts in psychiatric departments in Denmark since 1995. There was no trend toward an increase in the incidence of autism during that period when thimerosal was used in Denmark, up through 1990. From 1991 until 2000 the incidence increased and continued to rise after the removal of thimerosal from vaccines, including increases among children born after the discontinuation of thimerosal.
  AUTHOR CONCLUSION: The discontinuation of thimerosal-containing vaccines in Denmark in 1992 was followed by an increase in the incidence of autism. The data do not support a correlation between thimerosal-containing vaccines and the incidence of autism.
• Association Between Thimerosal-Containing Vaccine and Autism
  Hviid et al., Journal of the American Medical Association, 2003; 290(13):1763-6
  Study of 467,000 children born in Denmark between 1990 and 1996 compared children who were vaccinated with a thimerosal-containing vaccine to children who received a thimerosal-free formulation of the same vaccine. The risk of autism and other autism spectrum disorders did not differ significantly between children vaccinated with thimerosal-containing vaccine and children vaccinated with thimerosal-free vaccine.
  AUTHOR CONCLUSION: The results do not support a causal relationship between childhood vaccination with thimerosal-containing vaccines and development of autistic-spectrum disorders.

... and so on. If CM wants to move the goalposts back, someone should tell him others have already scored on it in the spot he moved it to.

After asking our friend Clayton to explain the analysis he uses to reach his conclusions, I can not understand why you would think these facts are relevant. In fact, Clayton's techniques of discovery appear to me quite similar to others health crusaders or even conspiracy theorists. The physics or chemistry or the mathematics are not nearly as important as what Clayton terms "basic intelligence". By this, he seems to mean something completely unrelated to your knowledge of anything. It appears to be something that even illiterate people, even pre-modern people can have. I'd like to know more about what this is and how it differs from superstition.

 

[Clayton Moore]

So when the CDC makes a study proving that there's no link between Autism and Vaccines, the claim promptly switches from "vaccines alone" to "vaccines and other factors".

That is a textbook case of Moving the Goalposts. If you are proved wrong on terms, simply change the terms, while refusing to admit you were wrong. The "other environmental factors" is so vague as to refer to pretty much anything. You could be talking about latex gloves+MMR, for pete's sake. This is a particularly efficient MoG, because to satisfy it would require testing MMR in combination with absolutely everything.

When you have a suspect, a commonality, it remains to be determined, HOW?

I think the MMR boosters, given to young women to ensure immunity to rubella, is a solid lead.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Then what, exactly, does your post demonstrate regarding the topic of this thread?

http://www.vaccineinfo.net/immunization/injury/autism/autismstudy.shtml

We would like to investigate one unique aspect of the MMR controversy, never examined to date.

Some mothers, who have been immunized as youngsters, against Measles, Mumps and Rubella, either with single vaccines, or with the MMR, are found to have inadequate Rubella (German Measles ) titres when they are tested before they get married, or during a pregnancy. MMR vaccine is then usually administered to them, usually at an appropriate, and recommended time.

Sometimes, after that booster, some of these mothers still do not show immune titres of rubella antibodies, and another MMR is administered. We think that it is possible that some of these mothers have produced sky high titres of antibodies against Measles, which they subsequently have transferred to their children. ( Note that they could have already had adequate or high measles antibody titres, before the MMR booster or boosters.) Similarly, many women starting college, are required to receive an MMR booster, regardless of their immune status.

 

[TSR]

.
Yeah, we read it the first time you posted it. Someone proposed a "study" years ago, whose results are unavailable, and is only being touted by a known quack. That's not even getting into the design of the "study" in question.

As you have whined when it served your purposes: where's the control group?

How do we know any of these people are are not just making things up the way that you do?

I ask again: what, exactly, does your post demonstrate regarding the topic of this thread?
.

 

[Tomblvd]

When you have a suspect, a commonality, it remains to be determined, HOW?

I think the MMR boosters, given to young women to ensure immunity to rubella, is a solid lead.

If you keep backpedaling like that you're going to fall off the Earth.