Merged Continuation - 9/11 CT subforum General Discussion Thread

[Christopher7]

1) I'm not asking questions, I'm giving answers.

And you are telling professionals in the field that your blather is more valid than their experience..

There is no assurance that TFC is a professional, much less an expert, and my "blather" is quotes from reliable sources.

I have not seen you make a true statement in the last four posts.

These statements are not mine, are you saying that these publications are lying? Can you provide a better source with different data? If not, then . . . . . .

Fireboat Harvey Cross connections in the firemain allow them to be set up in series to deliver a total of 8000 gpm at 300 psi. Tests showed the pumps exceeded their rating, pumping over 18,000 gpm (80 tons) which is equal to 20 - or five alarm's worth - of land fire engines.
http://www.fireboat.org/history/engineering.asp

[FONT=&quot]Fire math
http://www.firefightermath.org/index...d=31&Itemid=45
By rounding up to 0.5 from 0.434, friction and head losses due to the hose itself are taken into account.

[/FONT]The following statement is from data in the final report.

2) At 1:30 there were fires on floors 7 and 12 in WTC 7

FIRES IN LOCATIONS WHERE THERE IS ADEQUATE FUEL AND AIR SPREAD IF NOT EXTINGUISHED.
Have I made myself clear? Do you understand why your statement is irrelevant?

Ya got a real good grip on the obvious but your question is irrelevant because it has nothing to do with the debate at hand.
i.e. NIST says they didn't fight the fire in WTC 7 because they didn't have any water.

3) WTC 6 was a lost cause but WTC 7 was not.

Horse hockey. The building was showing signs of instability already.

Cow pucky. The debris damage did NOT destabilize the building.
NIST L pg 36
Analysis of the global structure indicates that the structure redistributed loads around the severed and damaged areas. A progression of column failure to adjacent columns would have been arrested by the vierendeel action of the perimeter moment frame, which could span across a sizeable opening due to the strength and stiffness of the frame.

There was nobody left in there to rescue.

This is not a criteria for fighting a fire. Firefighters fight fires after the people leave. They seem to have this thing about putting fires out. Go figure.

It was not worth the risk of a human life.

Is any high rise fire?

It was not known whether anyone was still alive in WTC 6.

Source?

There were also vast amounts of explosive material there that nobody wanted to see cook off.

Source? It seems unlikely that they would store "vast amounts of explosive material" in a commercial complex with thousands of people close by. I think you pulled that one out of your ass.

That is a ground-mounted deluge nozzle. A schnorkel, if there were not too many rigs competing for the same water, could get up there. I have seen photos that suggest that they could reach it easily.

So what? That's not what they were doing and you have no clue what they were doing or why.

 

[Christopher7]

Not really. Some of them buckled early, some reisisted. There is nothing I have seen to preclude the possibility that the last remaining columns went at the same time

Then try looking at this:

The columns are buckling DURRING the free fall acceleration part of the collapse. Can you spell "conundrum" ?

and the undamaged wall was pulled off its supports on one of the higher floors and wound up over a void into which it could fall unimpeded for a few floors.

A void? All four sides? For 100 feet? Of course dear. The problem is - that's NOT what the NIST model is doing. Look at the NIST graphic again.

 

[Christopher7]

We all know that the entire upper portion of WTC 7 moved down as a single unit. We can see that in the videos. NIST saw that in the videos. That's why they said:
"The entire building above the buckled-column region then moved downward in a single unit, as observed"

As a matter of fact, no, I don't know that.

No worries mate, yer just a little slo on the uptake. Itt'l come to ya eventually.

I know however that the east part of the core moved several seconds before the rest, and that the western core moved before the face. Maybe this is semantics,

Yep, that's what is is. It is not necessary to say the entire building EXCEPT THE PART THAT HAD ALREADY COLLAPSED, and the rest of the core was attached to the exterior walls so it fell with them. It all fell as a single unit - at free fall acceleration.

No. It suffices if the buckle and break.

Please look at the NIST model above. The columns did not break and the last frame is well into the free fall acceleration part of the actual collapse. Their model does not do what the building did.

 

[triforcharity]

The water coming out of the fire hose proves that they had a pump truck or they had the Harvey hooked up. In either case they could have gotten water to the 12 floor as I noted above.

No, you've not noted above. You've taken a website, and showed that IN THEORY, it COULD be possible. But, Like I have said, you STILL haven't accounted for the problem of running 15, 20, or even 30 firefighting nozzles from ONE pump. Now, I knowthis is going to be difficult, but I will try to make this as SIMPLE as I can.

You have one pump that can produce 8,000 GPM. K? K.

Now, you have to supply 10 nozzles that need 350 GPM. Now, you're down to how many GPM available? 4,500, correct.

Now, you must also supply 10 spider nozzles tht need 500 GPM. OOPS! Now you're out of water.

PRIORITY is NOT 7WTC.

It's not a theory, it's a photo of a high pressure hose putting water on WTC 6.

Correct. But again, you're forgetting the PRIORITY that 6 was a huge danger to incoming engines, and also to people already trapped and in need of rescue.

Yep, and you still haven't figued out why it is still a limited supply.

No, you simply subtract the loss to lift the water out of the river and up to the elevation of WTC 7, which in this case was ~20-30 feet or 10-15 psi.

Well, minus the 1800' hoselay you need to account for.
You're also using a 1" line for your calculations, which is incorrect.

WTC 5 and 6 were lost causes but WTC 7 was not. In any case, the Harvey was capable of supplying plenty of water.

Yep, for the stuff that we needed. Good thing we didn't consult you on 9/11. We'd have more firefighters dead than what we had, since you would have sent them up into 7WTC to fight the fire. Good call......

Fireboat Harvey Cross connections in the firemain allow them to be set up in series to deliver a total of 8000 gpm at 300 psi. Tests showed the pumps exceeded their rating, pumping over 18,000 gpm (80 tons) which is equal to 20 - or five alarm's worth - of land fire engines.
http://www.fireboat.org/history/engineering.asp

Wonderful, they can flow 18,000 GPM for HOW LONG? Not to mention that that would be 1 outlet. Do you think that would be feasable to work with?

No. In fact, that would be foolish.

Wrong
[FONT=&quot]Fire math
http://www.firefightermath.org/index...d=31&Itemid=45
By rounding up to 0.5 from 0.434, friction and head losses due to the hose itself are taken into account.

1" line, and doesn't take into consideration anything else, like the 1800' hoselay.

[/FONT] God help us all.

Good thing we didn't ask you for help on 9/11. More firefighters would have died. Good thing we left those decisions to the EXPERTS, and not a carpenter.

Then why were they were putting water on WTC 6?

It's already been explained.

Firefighters entered WTC 7 and rescued people from the 7th and 8th floors about noon. They reported a cubicle fire on floor 7 and no fire on floor 8.

I've hilited the part that you seem to keep forgetting.

 

[Oystein]

No worries mate, yer just a little slo on the uptake. Itt'l come to ya eventually.

Yep, that's what is is. It is not necessary to say the entire building EXCEPT THE PART THAT HAD ALREADY COLLAPSED, and the rest of the core was attached to the exterior walls so it fell with them. It all fell as a single unit - at free fall acceleration.

Please look at the NIST model above. The columns did not break and the last frame is well into the free fall acceleration part of the actual collapse. Their model does not do what the building did.

Would you please have the intregrity to address the long parts of my previous reply that addressed your accusation of me asking an "asinine" question, and how you actually agreed with me on what happened in stage 1 and 2, and how tempesta actually denies your (our) claims, yet you call my question to him asinine? Thanks!

(And again: We are not talking about a model - we are talking about direct observation of a real world event, and what it means viz. column buckling! Please do not reply to a strawman next time!)





I do expect an apology for the "asinine" question though, and your active help in educating tempesta!

 

[triforcharity]

Orders to a FD are top down. Try the Mayor.

The mayor has alot of power, agreed, but in no way could he direct the FD to do something assinine, and it be done.

Try the Captains and Chiefs that were there. They are the ones making decisions and calling the shots. Not the mayor.

 

[triforcharity]

There is no assurance that TFC is a professional, much less an expert, and my "blather" is quotes from reliable sources.

Feel free to ask Chris Mohr. He knows who I am.

Is any high rise fire?

Yes, and that is quite possibly the DUMBEST statement/question I have EVER seen you post. EVER.

Source? It seems unlikely that they would store "vast amounts of explosive material" in a commercial complex with thousands of people close by. I think you pulled that one out of your ass.

Well, unless they had a US Customs office in the......Oh, wait. They did. Do you know what bullets do when heated?

LOL!! Talk about an EPIC failure!! LOL!! Go google 6WTC and find out what that building was used for.

So what? That's not what they were doing and you have no clue what they were doing or why.

So, you think this was the ONLY nozzle in operation? LOL!! Foolish! Keep going champ. This is HILARIOUS!! You're arguing with two experts in firefighting now! LOL!!

 

[Christopher7]

Just looked at the verinage YouTube video above. VERY interesting. It looks like the rest of the building is not weakened much at all, which the CD companies say is safer in earthquake-prone areas.

You don't seen to know the difference between a steel column and a reinforced concrete column.

A steel column is not encased in concrete. A reinforced concrete column has steel rods, called rebar, that are fabricated into a "cage" that is wrapped with smaller rebar and tied together with steel wire. Concrete is poured around all the rebar. Reinforced concrete columns fair better in fires but NOT in earthquakes. The Oakland freeway is an example of reinforced columns failing in an earthquake while the steel framed buildings nearby were not damaged. The Windsor plaza is an example of reinforced concrete columns surviving an inferno that lasted 20 hours. The Delft building is rather strange because it had reinforced concrete columns but they collapse in a much less severe fire.

 

[Oystein]

You don't seen to know the difference between a steel column and a reinforced concrete column.

How do you interprete that from what Chris Mohr said? I think you are projecting.

A steel column is not encased in concrete. A reinforced concrete column has steel rods, called rebar, that are fabricated into a "cage" that is wrapped with smaller rebar and tied together with steel wire. Concrete is poured around all the rebar.

I fully expect Chris Mohr to know this already.

Reinforced concrete columns fair better in fires but NOT in earthquakes.

There was no earthquake in this video, nor was there an earth quake in NYC on 9/11/2001. Why do you bring up earthquakes? Earthquakes are just another mode of initiating a gravity driven collapse.

But glad to see you stating outright that steel columns fair WORSE in fires, which implies that fire is a realistic mode of initiating a gravity driven collapse.

The Oakland freeway is an example of reinforced columns failing in an earthquake while the steel framed buildings nearby were not damaged. The Windsor plaza is an example of reinforced concrete columns surviving an inferno that lasted 20 hours. The Delft building is rather strange because it had reinforced concrete columns but they collapse in a much less severe fire.

So if even a reinforced concrete building is prone to suffer a fire-induced total collapse, a steel building would be even more prone? Great.



Now you need to explain how steel and reinforced concrete buildings fare relative to one another after collapse initiation, by whatever mode (earthquake, fire, verinage, explosives). Otherwise, your post does not really help with regard to the topic at hand (a total collapse of a steel building after fires).

 

[Christopher7]

No, you've not noted above. You've taken a website, and showed that IN THEORY, it COULD be possible.

You don't know the difference between a theory and a fact.

Fact
The Harvey could easily produce enough water to fight WTC 5, 6 and 7 at the same time. [20 fire engines]

Or do you think the people at Fireboat.org are lying? Do you have another source that says something else?

Fact
A 1000 gpm pump truck could deliver 700 gpm to the 12 floor at 128pis.
Fire pumps are designed to perform as follows:
70% of rated capacity at 200 psi net pump pressure
http://home.honolulu.hawaii.edu/~jkemmler/chapter4.htm

Or do you think these people are lying?

How about these people?
Attack hose 2 1/2"
Primary attack line in Commercial Buildings and Exterior attacks
275 psi max. operating pressure
Needs 3 - 4 or more firefighters to operate
Delivers high volume of water (200- 300 gpm)
http://tkolb.net/tra_sch/FireHose/HoseBasics.html

Do you think they are lying too?

But, Like I have said, you STILL haven't accounted for the problem of running 15, 20, or even 30 firefighting nozzles from ONE pump.

Move the goal posts much? One pump truck could supply two 2 1/2 inch lines lines and fight the fires on both floor 7 floor 12. They could be fighting the fire on 7 while a line was being run up to the 12th floor. This is not rocket science, just common sense.

Correct. But again, you're forgetting the PRIORITY that 6 was a huge danger to incoming engines, and also to people already trapped and in need of rescue.

Source please

Well, minus the 1800' hoselay you need to account for.

Correct. The Harvey could still supply massive amounts of water at high pressure.

You're also using a 1" line for your calculations, which is incorrect.

I had no hose sizes in my calculations.

Wonderful, they can flow 18,000 GPM for HOW LONG?

Until the Hudson runs dry.

Not to mention that that would be 1 outlet. Do you think that would be feasable to work with?
No. In fact, that would be foolish.

So you think it was foolish to run a line and use the fireboat Harvey?
It was limited but very useful or they would not have done it - silly.

Think about this for a minute. You are a firefighter with no water. What do you do? I would opt for getting whatever water I could, but hey, you're the expert.

1" line, and doesn't take into consideration anything else, like the 1800' hoselay.

The 1" hose line came out of your head. They probably used 3 1/2" lines from the Harvey. The Harvey carried 4500 feet of 3 1/2" line.

Firefighters entered WTC 7 and rescued people from the 7th and 8th floors about noon. They reported a cubicle fire on floor 7 and no fire on floor 8.

I've hilited the part that you seem to keep forgetting.

So what happened between noon and 1:30 that made WTC 7 unsafe to enter and fight the fires?

 

[Christopher7]

Feel free to ask Chris Mohr. He knows who I am.

Big help, I don't know Chris well enough to just take his word for it.

Well, unless they had a US Customs office in the......Oh, wait. They did. Do you know what bullets do when heated?

Go google 6WTC and find out what that building was used for.

You made the claim that it was full of explosives. You prove it.

Bullets?

 

[Christopher7]

So if even a reinforced concrete building is prone to suffer a fire-induced total collapse

No they are not, and that's what makes Delft strange.

ETA:

Earthquakes are just another mode of initiating a gravity driven collapse.

If you stop and think about it, all collapses, natural or engineered, are gravity collapses. So that term is rather meaningless when thalikg about CD vs natural collapse.

 

[Oystein]

Would you please have the intregrity to address the long parts of my previous reply that addressed your accusation of me asking an "asinine" question, and how you actually agreed with me on what happened in stage 1 and 2, and how tempesta actually denies your (our) claims, yet you call my question to him asinine? Thanks!

(And again: We are not talking about a model - we are talking about direct observation of a real world event, and what it means viz. column buckling! Please do not reply to a strawman next time!)





I do expect an apology for the "asinine" question though, and your active help in educating tempesta!

Bumped for Christopher7

Wouldn't want to think out publicly that C7 lacks the personal character and integrity to address a point he false raised, and isn't man ebough to apologize, when apologies are due.

 

[Oystein]

No it isn't and that's what makes Delft strange.

Do you think it wasn't fire that brought down the Delft building? What is your theory? Nano-thermite? Hush-a-booms?
Or would you not consider the possibility after all that fire can destroy even reinforced concrete buildings, or would you categorically deny that fire can ever destroy reinforced buildings built with reinforced concrete columns?

Oh, and what about steel structures? You wrote "Reinforced concrete columns fair better [than steel ones] in fires", from which logically follows that steel columns fare worse than reinforced concrete ones. Would you mind describing what this "worse" includes? Can and do steel columns get destroyed by fire, at all?
(This is ignoring the fact that nobody claims that column failure was at the beginning of the collapses)

 

[Christopher7]

Bumped for Christopher7

Wouldn't want to think out publicly that C7 lacks the personal character and integrity to address a point he false raised, and isn't man ebough to apologize, when apologies are due.

I have no desire to respond to that double drivel diatribe.

[FONT=&quot]mañana[/FONT]

 

[A W Smith]

Christopher7 still basking in ignorance

10 years of Chris Sarns basking in his ignorance. Building seven was unsafe to enter. How do you suppose they could have enabled the sprinkler system above those fire floors to arrest the fire? Are you so stupid as to believe you can fight such an inferno with a few hose lines from the bottom up? What do you think of these witness reports?

http://sites.google.com/site/wtc7lies/eyewitnessaccountsofthewithdrawalfromwtc

1. They backed me off the rig because Seven was in dead jeopardy, so they backed everybody off and moved us to the rear end of Vesey Street. We just stood there for a half hour, 40 minutes, because Seven was in imminent collapse and finally did come down. –Firefighter Thomas Smith
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110246.PDF

2. Chief Nigro directed me to continue monitoring conditions at the site. Specifically to monitor number 7 World Trade Center. We were very concerned with the collapse potential there, and to do whatever I could do to ensure site safety in that no additional people became injured. –FDNY Deputy Chief Harold Meyers http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110382.PDF

3. We were concerned that the fires on several floors and the missing steel would result in the building collapsing. So for the next five or six hours we kept firefighters from working anywhere near that building, which included the whole north side of the World Trade Center complex. –Chief Frank Fellini http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110217.PDF

4. We made searches. We attempted to put some of the fire out, but we had a pressure problem. I forget the name of the Deputy. Some Deputy arrived at the scene and thought that the building was too dangerous to continue with operations, so we evacuated number 7 World Trade Center. –Captain Anthony Varriale http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110313.PDF

5. I remember him screaming about number 7, No. 7, that they wanted everybody away from 7 because 7 was definitely going to collapse, they don't know when, but it's definitely going to come down, just get the hell out of the way, everybody get away from it, make sure you're away from it, that's an order, you know, stuff like that. –Firefighter Edward Kennedy http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110502.PDF

6. Early on, there was concern that 7 World Trade Center might have been both impacted by the collapsing tower and had several fires in it and there was a concern that it might collapse. So we instructed that a collapse area --
Q. A collapse zone?
A. Yeah -- be set up and maintained so that when the expected collapse of 7 happened, we wouldn't have people working in it. There was considerable discussion with Con Ed regarding the substation in that building and the feeders and the oil coolants and so on. And their concern was of the type of fire we might have when it collapsed. They shut down the power, and when it did collapse, the things that they were concerned with would have been [sic]. That's about it. –Chief Frank Cruthers
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110179.PDF

7. There was concern. I had gone up to take a look at it, because I knew that the telephone company building, which is 140 West Street, was next to 7 World Trade Center, and there was a concern that if 7 World Trade came down, what would happen to this building? We went in there, we checked it out. There were some people in there. We made them evacuate and I went in the back to see what was happening. I went back and I reminded whoever the chief was, I don't know if it was Chief McKavanagh or Chief Blaich, that with 7 World Trade Center in danger of collapsing, you had to be careful, because Con Edison had big transformers in the back that supplied the lower half of Manhattan. So we had to be concerned about electricity, that this may be energized or not be energized. –Firefighter Eugene Kelty Jr.
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110261.PDF

8. "We heard reports all day long of 7 World Trade possibly coming down. ...We heard that all day long, all the warnings." –Firefighter Christopher Patrick Murray
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110327.PDF
9. It could have been an hour, hour and a half we were doing that before we were ordered to move away from that part of Tower No. 1 because there was an imminent danger of collapse of World Trade Center No. 5 and 7. –Firefighter Vandon Williams http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110282.PDF

10. Civilian photographer Tom Franklin: “Much of what happened to me on September 11 is a blur, but this moment I clearly remember: It was 4:45 p.m., and all the firemen and rescue workers were evacuating Ground Zero after word came that a third building -- WTC 7 -- was ready to fall.” http://archives.cjr.org/year/02/2/franklin.asp

11. Unidentified speaker in video: "Keep your eye on that building, it'll be coming down soon."
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/wtc7_blow_up.wmv

12. CBS-TV Reporter Vince DeMentri, who sneaked past security barriers to get close to the scene:
...Building 7 was going to collapse. That appears to be what has happened now. I don't know exactly how many stories the building is, Dan, but standing at the base of the building and watching it burn about an hour ago, it looked to be on the order of 50, 60 stories. [If anyone has the audio leading up to “...Building 7 was going to collapse,” let me know. I’m curious to know why the CT websites include only this much of the clip.] http://www.911podcasts.com/view.php?cat=4&med=0&ord=Name&strt=0&vid=24&epi=216&typ=0&form=0

13. So that was basically we watched that one come down. It was on fire first, I think the fourth floor was on fire they said. We were like are you guys going to put that fire out? I was like, you know, they are going to wait for it to burn down and it collapsed. So that's when I knew high rise buildings you know (inaudible).
Q: You were still there?
A: Yes, so basically they measured out how far the building was going to come, so we knew exactly where we could stand.
Q: So they just put you in a safe area, safe enough for when that building came down?
A: 5 blocks. 5 blocks away. We still could see. Exactly right on point, the cloud just stopped right there. Then when that building was coming down, that same rumbling. –EMT Decosta Wright
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110054.PDF

14. We went to get the car. We were inside the perimeter, more or less -- that's where the car was -- of where Seven World Trade Center was. We started back going east, I guess it is. ...We were inside this perimeter although we didn't realize it at the time we saw a rig with the compartments opened. We stopped. They were actually reversing. I kind of pulled up along side them. Murray yelled out the window “Your compartments are open.” The guy yelled something back at us. They kept backing up.
We went forward to imagine it’s the corner of Murray and West Street. Just as we were approaching it, we saw person run north in front of the car, and then Joe Mazzarella who was sitting in the passenger seat just started screaming “Reverse! Reverse! Reverse! Reverse!” I didn’t even look. I just threw it in reverse and punched it. We flew backwards without being able to see out the rear, and building Seven came down in front of us –Fire Marshal John Coyle http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110406.PDF

15. At this point, I moved up all the way to stairwell B. We got the lady out, passed her down, then they were trying to dig out, I believe it was a second Battalion Chief and I waited and stayed there with them until we were ordered—well, we were ordered several times, but the Captain of, I think it was a rescue company or a squad refused to leave. Finally he gave up, he said there was nothing he could do and we all left that area. This is in the collapse zone of tower 7.
At this point, I went down back to the middle area of the pile and I proceeded to make my way to the north side of the towers. At that point, I ran into Lieutenant Simms, who had another complement of Ladder 20 there. At this point, I guess I had formally reported into Deputy Chief Visconti. He was up on the North End. We waited until tower 7 collapsed and at this point, we went into the area and assessed the damage that was done to the buildings and to see if we could control the fires that resulted from the collapse of tower 7. –Captain Richard Weldon http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110307.PDF
16. At that time Seven World Trade Center was burning and in was danger of collapsing. ...I guess it was a Chief was saying clear the area, because they were worried about number Seven World Trade Center coming down and burying guys who were digging. So basically we went back to the rig because they were clearing that area out. It took about three hours for Seven World Trade Center to actually come down. –Firefighter Kevin McGovern http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110301.PDF

17. I remember later in the day it was getting close that they were more concerned about Seven coming down. I remember later on in the day as we were waiting for Seven to come down, they kept backing us up Vesey, almost like a full block. They were concerned about Seven coming down, and they kept changing us, establishing a collapse zone and backing us up.
As soon as it came down, everybody got up and tore ass west down Vesey Street. Everybody was trying to get into this building. I remember there were 150 guys trying to get through two revolving doors with full gear. Everyone is screaming. Guys were trying to smash the glass with their halogens to get through and ended up freaking out. Everybody was shell-shocked.
That’s when Salka came up and he said all right now that Seven was down you can start getting closer and down things. There was no collapse threat anymore. –Firefighter Vincent Massa
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110222.PDF

18. Eventually they had ordered everybody away from the area again because of building 7.
–Lieutenant James Walsh http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110459.PDF

19. We stayed in this area for a while, and we started wandering around, and we came around to where 6 and 7 were, and actually 7, we were coming down this corner going trying to find something to do, and that's when they were telling us 7 is going to go, 7 is going to go, so we kind of backed away.
–Firefighter Paul Vasquez http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110397.PDF

20. Q: Did 7 collapse yet?
A: 7 hasn’t collapsed yet. We were being told by -- I guess everybody was being a little insubordinate that day. Everyone wanted to do as much as they could, but we were told 5 minutes [to cease rescue operations on the pile], I don't know how many times. –Firefighter Gerard Suden
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110022.PDF

21. They had figured they knew that building was going to come down. It was just a question of time, and everybody was awaiting that. –Firefighter Russ Stroebel
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110497.PDF
22. A Battalion Chief was assigned to us. We took our apparatus to West Street to the north bridge, on that side over there, where we began to operate. We had identified different members who were deceased and trapped in rigs. We were about to proceed our operation there and this was in the afternoon, I would say approximately maybe 2:00 roughly, where we started to operate and then they asked us to fall back again due to the potential of 7 World Trade Center collapsing.
At that time, we had fallen back to probably opposite Stuyvesant High School, I believe it was on the west side there.
Q. That's uptown a little bit.
A. Right. They had us fall back to there. We stayed at that position until exactly when 7 collapsed. When 7 collapsed, we responded again. We had an Engine Company, a spare Engine Company with us and ourselves. We responded to just behind 7, which was, I think it was Greenwich, was it Washington or Greenwich? I think it was Greenwich. Is this Greenwich?
Q. It could be. I don't have a bigger map.
A. We turned the corner, 7 had just collapsed, the block that led into 7.
Q. Pretty sure that's Greenwich.
A. Greenwich and Park was covered with debris, there were burning autos and all debris. It was starting to extend into the buildings on both sides of the block. We went to hydrants in that area. We had off duty guys in our cells, but the hydrants had no water. We did whatever we could. The rigs actually were starting to become in danger of lighting up themselves.
We called trying to get water returned to us over here. Finally one of the members thought, we used it for a good period of time, we forced the door on one of the buildings there and used the water from the roof tanks. It was left in the gravity tanks. We took a two and a half line out of one of the doors. We were able to advance down Greenwich, stopping, putting fire out in the street, the cars and from getting into exposures.
They were worried about 7 at the time. The decision was made not to do it, not to get anybody else hurt. That's when we backed up and they said let's wait for this other building before we continue any work, because where the bridge was in the direct path of 7. It was the north bridge where we were looking initially.
We operated with the Tower Ladder there effectively on those buildings that were within our reach. Then the other part was unfortunately we couldn't do anything at the pedestrian bridge but the concern of 7, which they had no idea which way it was going to collapse and they just knew it was going to collapse and they positioned us outside of it.
The company to the south of us was -- it was a double digit -- I don't know if it was 14. I'm just stabbing at numbers now. It was just so much debris between cars, it was hard to see what was good and bad, stuff like that. But that was our main position right there. I would say from approximately about at least an hour, hour and a half between 4 and 5. They made us evacuate due to the fear of 7 coming down.
The Chief and myself went down to that area where we they wanted us to work. Seeing what we would need; torches, air bags, anything else like that to operate at that bridge.
The concern there again, it was later in the afternoon, 2, 2:30, like I said. The fear then was Seven. Seven was free burning. Search had been made of 7 already from what they said so they had us back up to that point where we were waiting for 7 to come down to operate from the north back down. –Captain Robert Sohmer http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110472.PDF

23. I remember finding Engine Company 6's rig, stripping that rig of fittings and hose to hook up to anybody else. I remember at that time also they were worried about Building 7 because when the second tower came down, they were worried about parts of – actually, when the first tower came down, they were worried about parts of Building 7 collapsing, so I remember getting into Building 7 and searching. I got separated from the crew that I had gone down with, because I stayed at the pump panel. They had gone around the West Street side of the building and into the rubble.
I remember coming out of the building now because they were afraid of Building 7 coming down, and all the other buildings around it getting knocked down. So they took us out of the building. –Firefighter Anthony Salerno http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110309.PDF

24. Then we found out, I guess around 3:00 o'clock, that they thought 7 was going to collapse. So, of course, we've got guys all in this pile over here and the main concern was get everybody out, and I guess it took us over an hour and a half, two hours to get everybody out of there. So it took us a while and we ended up backing everybody out, and that's when 7 collapsed. Basically, we fell back for 7 to collapse, and then we waited a while and it got a lot more organized, I would guess. –Lieutenant William Ryan http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110117.PDF

25. But anyway, more to the point, a rumor started to develop that tower 7 was going to fall on us or nearby us. Having just lived through the collapse and having Dr. Kelly just live through the collapse with both of us getting buried, this was not a very pleasing feeling. It really does make me understand a lot about psychological stress that can occur in these events because I would not have had the same worry about this if I hadn't just come through one of them. We went outside to speak to the Chief, the head Chief. His name is Chief Haring. Great guy. But he said, you know, it's not going to be a problem. Tower 7 may collapse. It's not going to be anywhere near here. It's not going to be a problem. But we were really concerned about this.

By the time we were about done with this, we interacted with Chief Haring again. He basically was incredulous and said: "What are you crazy? You've moved into the collapse zone, and if this collapse occurs, the dust cloud is going to knock out that entire park. You're going to be useless there. You've made it worse."

About midway into setting up physically the second triage area, hanging the IV bags and everything, a tremendous noise occurs, and it's so loud that everybody rushes to the rear of the Pace University building, all the doctors, all the nurses. When the noise was over, we went to the front. The dust cloud from tower 7, just like Chief Haring said, wiped out that park. If we had had any supplies there, any doctors there, they wouldn't have been killed. I mean, it wasn't that massive the debris that fell on the park, but they would have been useless. The dust cloud went all the way up to the door of Pace University, up the stairs, across the street, right up to the door, the lobby door. –Dr. David Prezant
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110212.PDF

26. "Then we were just hanging out watching building 7 ready to go." –Firefighter Steve Piccerill
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110330.PDF

27. We were down there for a while until we were ordered off, because they were worried about Seven coming down. –Firefighter Michael Palone http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110314.PDF

28. I know when the Lieutenant told us where to go, that wasn’t the correct staging area, cause we were still too close to the buildings. They wanted everyone away from it. That’s when there was a third building that collapsed around that time.
Q: Building Seven, which would be over here.
A: Okay, 7 World Trade, that one collapsed.
Q: 7 World Trade collapsed a little later.
A: Yeah, a lot later. –EMT Alwish Moncherry
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110127.PDF

29. From there, I think that's when 7 was going to come down. So they backed everybody out, somewhere near Church & Trinity, I guess. –Firefighter Peter Metzger
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110424.PDF

30. Eventually later in the day we had to evacuate that site because number Seven collapsed. Prior to its collapse, we evacuated all the supplies, the doctors, and moved over to Pace University into the lobby, and they set up another medical area. Most injuries we treated were eye injuries from the debris, basically cleaning out people's eyes. –EMS Lieutenant John Mendez
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110175.PDF
31. I think they were fearing about 7 World Trade coming down. –Lt. Anthony Mancuso.
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110399.PDF

32. At that point they were worried that 7 was coming down so they were calling for everyone to back out. –Firefighter Matthew Long http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110021.PDF

33. 7 World Trade Center? I couldn’t even watch that. I said that’s enough. I refused to watch that. I took R-and-R. I said you guys can watch that one. But they got streams and they contained the fire. I mean, the objective was nobody else got killed, the fire did not jump the street. –Battalion Chief Frank Vallebuona http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/magazine/gz/vallebunoa.html

34. We were starting to gather over there, and we heard that there was a building in danger of collapse. This was a couple hours later, maybe, and that huge building -- it was on that block. When that came down, we all ran down to the west side. –Firefighter Stephen Jezycki
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110050.PDF

35. Lieutenant Lowney spoke to, asked us to leave the area, they were concerned about 7 World Trade Center collapsing. –Firefighter George Holzman
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110467.PDF

36. Then at one point they chased us out of there for fear of collapse of a building; I believe it was Seven World Trade. So they got us out of there because they didn't know which way that building was going to collapse. When Seven World Trade did collapse, we were in the Woolworth Building. You couldn't even see. It was unbelievable. You couldn't even see your hand in front of your face. That's how much dust and debris was flying around. –FDNY Captain John Henricksen
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110069.PDF

37. We heard a mayday for everybody to get out of the building (Verizon Bldg., next to WTC 7) -- no, I'm sorry, an "urgent," three "urgents," and we came out of the building. I'd say that was like an hour and a half, two hours later. We were then positioned on Vesey Street between North End and the West Side Highway because there was an imminent collapse [warning] on 7 World Trade, and it did collapse. –Firefighter Brian Fitzpatrick http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110256.PDF

38. The only thing that had me really frustrated was they wasn't really trying to let us go back down there. (After the collapse of the second building). I understand after it was unsafe. Cause I guess after that 7 came down. Well 7 didn't come down until like 4, 5 o'clock. So I was just wondering, they just kept us cooped in there for a long time. –EMT Jarjean Felton
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110041.PDF

39. During the search we were ordered by one of the battalions to move north above -- towards Stuyvesant High School -- under the overpass at Chambers Street, because at that point it was feared that Six [sic: Seven] World Trade Center was going to collapse. It did so later in the afternoon. –Lieutenant Francis Farrington http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110320.PDF

40. Captain Michael Currid, the president of the Uniformed Fire Officers Association, said that some time after the collapse of the Twin Towers, “Someone from the city's Office of Emergency Management” told him that building 7 was “basically a lost cause and we should not lose anyone else trying to save it," after which the firefighters in the building were told to get out. (Murphy, Dean E., 2002. September 11: An Oral History. New York: Doubleday pp. 175-76)
41. While we were searching the subbasements (of building 6) they decided that Seven World Trade Center which was across the street was going to collapse, so they called us out. We were so far down we couldn’t hear them, but we came out after we searched the subbasements. Actually we came out on the Seven World Trade Center parkway street when came out they were calling us on the radio to tell us to get out. I then reported that the search was negative and then they wouldn’t let anybody near the site pretty much because Seven World Trade Center was going to come down. –Battalion Chief Frank Congiusta http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110425.PDF

42. We were ordered down from the tower ladder because of a possible collapse at Tower 7.
–Firefighter Pete Castellano http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110398.PDF

43. The reason we were given for why we were moving was that 7 World Trade Center was going to collapse or was at risk of collapsing. So we must have been somewhere in this area where we would have had a problem with that. ...They wanted us to move the treatment sector because of 7 World Trade Center was imminently to collapse, which, of course, it did –Paramedic Joseph Cahill
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110085.PDF

44. The rest of the day we were unloading trucks we were just doing whatever little things we could do, but they were waiting for 7 World Trade Center to fall. –Firefighter Timothy Burke
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110488.PDF

45. "We were asked to go out of that area due to a risk of collapse in 7 WTC. "
–PAPD P.O. Thomas Johnson http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/pa-transcripts/pa-police-reports02.pdf page 10.

46. ...And that was one of the directions from the command post, to make sure we clear the collapse zone from 7 and this is a 600-foot-tall building, so we had to clear a 600-foot radius from that building. –Battalion Chief John Norman http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/magazine/gz/norman.html

47. "The three of us along with 2 firemen searched that area until we were told to leave due to 7 possibly collapsing." –PAPD P.O. Thomas Hering http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/pa-transcripts/pa-police-reports02.pdf p.13.

48. All later attempts to return to the WTC were stopped by the pending, and eventual collapse of Building 7 and the uncontrolled fires. –PAPD P.O. Lawrence Guarneri http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/pa-transcripts/pa-police-reports03.pdf page 34

49. A while later, an NYFD supervisor approached and ordered the rescuers away from the area because 7 WTC was in danger of collapse also. –M. DeFilippis, PAPD P.O.
http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/pa-transcripts/pa-police-reports03.pdf page 49

50. At about 1300 hrs between repeating officers fruitless efforts to locate fellow officers and the warning of building number Seven's possible collapse I started to walk uptown on West Street in hope of locating the PAPD Command Center. –Christopher Bergmann, PAPD P.O. http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/pa-transcripts/pa-police-reports03.pdf page 52

51. An FDNY supervisor deemed the area we were in unsafe, and assisted people out of the immediate area. –M. McAdams, PAPD P.O. http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/pa-transcripts/pa-police-reports03.pdf page 72

52. Reports of gas main leaks, bombs, small arms fire and buildings about to collapse forced us to again relocate further north on West Street. –Daniel A. Carbonaro, PAPD Lieutenant http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/pa-transcripts/pa-police-reports03.pdf page 76

[The next three quotes are similar...from written reports by officers in the same command]
53. Due to fire and instability of buildings at the WTC site we were directed to the MCC gym.
– PAPD P.O. Thomas Mancini, http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/pa-transcripts/pa-police-reports03.pdf page 86

54. Due to fire and instability at the WTC site we were redirected to the MCC gym.
–PAPD P.O. Quirk http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/pa-transcripts/pa-police-reports03.pdf page 88

55. Due to the fire and instability of the buildings at the WTC site we were directed to the MCC gym.
–PAPD P.O. Christensen http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/pa-transcripts/pa-police-reports03.pdf page 89

56. Several attempts were made to assist the trapped, but we were kept out due to the uncontrolled fires and other building collapsing around us. –PAPD P.O. Patrick Versage http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/pa-transcripts/pa-police-reports03.pdf page 95

57. Returned to the site on 2-3 occasions...in an effort to help with evacuation but was stopped due to the imminent collapse of 7 WTC. –PAPD LT. William Oorbeek http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/pa-transcripts/pa-police-reports03.pdf page 97
58. Unfortunately we could not do much more because of fear that other buildings surrounding the Trade Center were going to come down. –PAPD P.O. John McClain http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/pa-transcripts/pa-police-reports04.pdf page 33

59. For the remainder of the day , we made trips to the scene to assist in the search. Due to confusion and the threat of damaged buildings falling we were forced to retreat each time. We were on West & Vesey when # 7 collapsed. –PAPD Sgt. Stone http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/pa-transcripts/pa-police-reports04.pdf page 60

60. So we were doing searches, stretching lines, we were doing everything that we could possibly do. We were kind of overwhelmed at the task at hand. Like I said we operated for about three and half hours and then we went to take breather, and as we moved out of the area we weren’t permitted back in the area by that time by a number of Chiefs that were in charge. –FDNY Lieutenant Brendan Whelan http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110360.PDF

61. Once they got us back together and organized somewhat, they sent us back down to Vesey, where we stood and waited for Seven World Trade Center to come down. –Firefighter Frank Sweeney http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110113.PDF

62. But they weren’t really getting [sic] guys get too deep into it because of the possible pending collapse of Seven World Trade. ...We were staged there a good part of the afternoon until Seven finally did collapse. –Firefighter David Moriarty http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110228.PDF

63. …they told us to evacuate the area for tower number Seven, building Seven, when they knew that was coming down… –Firefighter Dominick Muschello http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110249.PDF

64. …Captain Verraile from 24 Engine said, “Hey, let’s just back everything off here because this building is coming down.” –Firefighter Howie Scott http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110365.PDF

65. Then they said that the 47 story hotel building—I think it’s number Seven—was about to come down. ...We were around for the rest of the afternoon. At about 5:30 that did come down. –Firefighter Edward Mecner http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110391.PDF

66. They were saying building Seven was going to collapse, so we regrouped and went back to our rig. We waited for building Seven to come down. –Firefighter James Wallace http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110409.PDF

67. At 5:20, No. 7 finally falls. They've been waiting for it to go so they can move the firemen and search-and-rescue teams in. With the thunderous collapse, firemen bolt up from where they've been camped, on the south side of the Embassy Suites. Some have been sitting on plush hotel furniture carted into the street, eating food from the Mexican restaurant next door. There's a stampede over pickaxes and oxygen tanks. They head out toward the crushed fire trucks. "They're looking for their brothers," says an ambulance driver. http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/sept11/features/5183/index.html
68. Now, World Trade Center 7 was burning and I was thinking to myself, how come they're not trying to put this fire out? I didn't realize how much they had because my view was obstructed. All I could see was the upper floor. At some point, Frank Fellini said, now we've got hundreds of guys out there, hundreds and hundreds, and that's on the West Street side alone. He said to me, Nick, you've got to get those people out of there. I thought to myself, out of where? Frank, what do you want, Chief? He answered, 7 World Trade Center, imminent collapse, we've got to get those people out of there. – Deputy Chief Nick Visconti http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/magazine/gz/visconti.html

Here’s a woman who thought the FDNY “brought the building down”
69. Indira Singh, a volunteer EMT: "What happened with that particular triage site is that pretty soon after noon, after midday on 9/11, we had to evacuate that because they told us Building 7 was coming down. ... I do believe that they brought Building 7 down because I heard that they were going to bring it down because it was unstable, because of the collateral damage. ... By noon or one o'clock they told us we had to move from that triage site up to Pace University, a little further away, because Building 7 was gonna come down or being brought down. ... There was another panic around four o'clock because they were bringing the building down and people seemed to know this ahead of time, so people were panicking again and running." (KPFA, 4/27/2005)

70. "So when I get to the command post, they just had a flood of guys standing there. They were just waiting for 7 to come down. ... I made it down Vesey Street to just in front of the overpass of 7 World Trade. People were saying don't stand under there, it's going to come down. ... So at that point we were a little leery about how the bridge was tied in, so no one was really going onto it, and then they were also saying 7 was going to come down. They chased everyone off the block." – FDNY Chief Thomas McCarthy (FDNY interview, 10/11/2001)

71. "And at that point they were worried that 7 was coming down so they were calling for everyone to back out. ... Because they were just adamant about 7 coming down immediately. I think we probably got out of that rubble and 18 minutes later is when 7 came down." – Firefighter Matthew Long: (FDNY interview, 10/9/2001)

72. Fire Captain Brenda Berkman: "We no sooner got going on something there when a chief came along and said, 'Everybody's got to leave the area. We're afraid that Seven World Trade is going to fall down.' (Susan Hagen and Mary Carouba, Women at Ground Zero, 2002, p. 213)

and:

"After being ordered back because of the fear that yet another building was about to collapse (7 World Trade Center, 40+ stories), Brenda [Berkman] and her crew went to find other firefighters who might have some tools or a radio. ... That afternoon, 7 World Trade Center came down. 'We had cleared an enormous collapse zone for that, and it still wasn't big enough. When the thing came down, the rubble and the dust came across the West Side Highway, over and past the rubble from the towers that was there.'" (Linda Willing, "Report from Ground Zero: The World Trade Center Collapse," FireWork, 9/2001)

73. Byron Pitts, CBS News correspondent: "About an hour ago, World Trade Center building number 7 collapsed. ...It was the one calamity that was not a surprise. Police had evacuated the area hours ago, fearful building number 7 would indeed fall down." (CBS News, 9/11/2001)

74. Kansas City Star: "About 4:30 p.m., word went out to evacuate the area. Officials were worried that Building 7 of the Trade Center complex would collapse." (David Hayes, "Amid despair, photographer's work brought hope," Kansas City Star, 3/28/2004)

75. Mark Jacobson, reporter, New York Magazine: "Hours later, I sat down beside another, impossibly weary firefighter. ... Then, almost as a non sequitur, the fireman indicated the building in front of us, maybe 400 yards away. 'That building is coming down,' he said with a drained casualness. 'Really?' I asked. At 47 stories, it would be a skyscraper in most cities, centerpiece of the horizon. But in New York, it was nothing but a nondescript box with fire coming out of the windows. 'When?' 'Tonight ... Maybe tomorrow morning.' This was around 5:15 p.m. I know because five minutes later, at 5:20, the building, 7 World Trade Center, crumbled." (Mark Jacobson, "The Ground Zero Grassy Knoll," New York Magazine, 3/27/2006)

76. Christine Haughney, reporter, Washington Post: "Then a policeman directed me north. The Solomon Smith Barney building--Building Seven--was about to collapse." (Chris Bull and Sam Erman, At Ground Zero, 2002, p. 17)

77. Peter DeMarco, reporter, New York Daily News: "Seven or eight blocks down Greenwich Street, the No. 7 World Trade building, a smaller, forty-story structure, was on fire. The street was closed; the building was going to collapse." (Chris Bull and Sam Erman, At Ground Zero, 2002, p. 97)

78. Fire Chief Joseph Pfeifer: "Yes, I watched 7. At one point, we were standing on the west side of West Street and Vesey. And I remember Chief Nigro coming back at that point saying I don't want anybody else killed and to take everybody two blocks up virtually to North End and Vesey, which is a good ways up. And we stood there and we watched 7 collapse." ("WTC: This Is Their Story," Firehouse, 4/2002)

79. EMT Jason Charles: "So we started heading over to where Building 7 was at and they were like Building 7 is going to collapse, you can't go over there, this and that, and there was another building that they thought was going to collapse that was like right behind the triage center, the building that we were in." (FDNY interview, 1/23/2002)

80. Fire Lieutenant Roy David: "At Pace University we had -- we set up -- I'm sorry, we set up in that lobby of that building, the lobby and the actual whole first floor. There was a threat of collapse of building number seven, so 225, we had to evacuate it." (FDNY Interview, 10/12/2001)

81. Liz Gonzalez, reporter, Telemundo/Channel 47: "They started evacuating the area because they thought a third building was going to go down. We decided to stay. We saw the third building crash." (Newseum, Running Toward Danger, 2002, p. 209)

82. Sara Kugler, reporter, the Associated Press: "I saw hundreds of firefighters leaning against buildings, sitting on trucks, eating fruit and water that the Red Cross was handing out. 'Where are all the injured?' I asked. 'They are not letting us in. It's not stable,' said the firefighters. ... All of a sudden Seven World Trade Center started to collapse." (Newseum, Running Toward Danger, 2002, p. 210)

83. Fire Chief Frank Fellini: So for the next five or six hours we kept firefighters from working anywhere near that building, which included the whole north side of the World Trade Center complex. Eventually around 5:00 or a little after, building number seven came down." (FDNY Interview, 12/3/2001)
84. Firefighter TJ Mundy: "The other building, #7, was fully involved, and he was worried about the next collapse." (Report from Ground Zero by Dennis Smith. Penguin, 2002)

85. Harry Meyers, NYPD Safety Chief "My biggest concern at the time was #7. It was burning, and I felt that was a danger to the rescuers and to any trapped survivors there might be. ...We were all pretty much on board that tower 7 was going to fall. We just didn't know when and in what direction. (Report from Ground Zero by Dennis Smith. Penguin, 2002. p. 160

86. Deputy Chief Peter Hayden "We still had 7 World Trade Center, which was burning also. We were worried about that collapsing, and it did collapse, about six hours later. There was a conscious decision to let that building burn and just keep everybody clear." (Report from Ground Zero by Dennis Smith. Penguin, 2002. p. 32)

 

[000063]

Whom are you quoting there?

You. Either it looked like a standard CD, which is what most Truthers claim, or it didn't. You said that the hypothetical conspirators would have no reason to make the collapse follow the safety standards of a CD, and didn't, which means that all the Truthers who say the collapse(s) looked like a CD (and that it therefore was) are wrong.

Aside from the fallacy of assuming something is what it appears to be on first glance, without considering actual physical evidence and opinions, either it looked like a CD because it was a CD (standard Truther claim, and you've admitted they wouldn't bother to care about normal safety standards), or it doesn't look like a CD because They took pains to disguise it or simply didn't care (which makes all the other Truthers wrong).

WTC 7's damage was one sided. Why then did it not simply topple in that direction?

If one gets hit on the right side of the head, would one necessarily topple to the right after the concussion causes you to collapse several hours later?

Also, the operative word in your post is "simply". This is an egotistical view, common to truthers. If their understanding of the events is simple, then the events themselves must be simple.

Why would an unscathed portion of a building reach free fall? WTC 7 looked very much like a controlled demolition, and I bet if you showed a demolition expert that video they would (and have) conclude the same thing.

Yes, they would. They would say that it looked like a demo. However, if they have any competency at all, they would not conclude that it was a demo without evidence.

In fact I'm willing to bet if you showed CD experts who had no knowledge of WTC 7 that video that at least 90% would conclude it was a CD. What do you think?

I disagree, for the reasons previously stated. Rushing to judgement based on first impressions leads to disaster.

 

[000063]

Orders to a FD are top down. Try the Mayor.

I assure you, the Mayor does not have immediate, operational control of his fire departments any more than Obama controlled Seal Team 6 like he was playing Modern Warfare.

If you disagree, I'd be happy to admit I was wrong once you produce sources. Which you will never do, by your track record.

 

[000063]

Well, there are only two possible conclusions if the water should have had enough pressure; the conspirators somehow sabotaged the FDNY, stealthily altering dozens/hundreds of trucks and pieces of equipment (since they could not know which company/companies would be doing the firefighting) that would be taken back to the firehouses after 9/11 and, eventually, inspected. Their sabotage was never discovered.

or
The FDNY was in on it, which means they were also complicit in the murder of 300+ of their brothers and thousands of civilians and then said nothing about it for ten years. These are people who run into burning buildings for the sake of that very same public.

Both are impossible. As Holmes said, that leaves "there wasn't enough water pressure" as the only other explanation.

Reductio ad absurdum, QED.

Chris, you seem to have missed this post. As have Clay and Tempe.

If there was enough pressure, the only options for the course of events proceeding from that assumption are unfeasible. Therefore, it is false. I don't even have to do that complicated looking math better minds than mine are tossing around.

 

[BasqueArch]

Do you think it wasn't fire that brought down the Delft building? What is your theory? Nano-thermite? Hush-a-booms?
Or would you not consider the possibility after all that fire can destroy even reinforced concrete buildings, or would you categorically deny that fire can ever destroy reinforced buildings built with reinforced concrete columns?

.....

Delft University Building

5/13/2008 Fire and collapse
End of May, 2008 Building is demolished
October 2008 Data begins to be gathered for analysis of the fire and collapse.

1) The building is demolished and removed before any experts can examine the debris.
2) Data is gathered from drawings, videos, witnesses.
3) No testing for explosives is conducted.

Notice the researchers are all from American Universities. Some probably have ties to NIST. Two researches work for public universities funded by The State.


Advanced Google search for Delft Jewish results in 793,000 hits
The rebuilding costs $100MM
It wouldn't surprise me if Silverstein owned the building.

I smell CD.

http://www.lmc.ep.usp.br/grupos/gsi/wp-content/NSF09-Paper_Meacham_Mar29%5B1%5D.pdf