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Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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In one of Franks last posts before Mignini succeeded in getting him closed down,it was his account of the hearing when Curatolo became an embarrassment to the prosecution,Napoleoni was to have being a witness that day also she did not show up she could not be got on the phone,Frank wrote a very scathing attack on her,how this miscarriage of justice would never have happened only for her,claiming she always had time to come to court during the first trial but now that the tide had turned she was nowhere to be found,afraid of the questions of the defence lawyers and the journalists.I do not know if that blog post of Franks can any longer be found on line

Is this and this more or less what you're referring to, perhaps a juxtaposition between them?

What I was most curious about was his article on the calunnia hearing where they tried to have Matteini recused. She's one of your...favorites as I recall, and having take a closer look at you I agree she's been a menace in this case. This calunnia charge strikes me as having potentially frightening implications for Italians. As I understand it, the Italian system is not wedded to past decisions like ours is, however if it becomes known that the police can do whatever they please in a high profile case like this, lose the tapes or never bother with them, and then prosecute anyone who offers even the mildest of defenses in their behalf, then what can't they do in those little backrooms?

There must have been a hearing yesterday I'd not seen any other report on, hopefully Frank will have something up about today's session as well later tonight. That sounded like quite a dramatic hearing!
 
I think you missed the point, and dodged much :) , of my post.





Ask Billy (or Mary H)

Was I being to subtle again ?


Sorry, I thought you knew that the Perugia leg of the trip is soley about confronting the relevant serving officals with their alleged shortcomings?.

My 'To Do List' is now shaping up something like this:

- Amnesty International Reports on Police brutality in Italy ... to be made required reading for all overseas students heading for Italy?

- Compile list of allegations to put to Perugia Police Chief, Perugia Police Union and Italian Police National Conference.

- Compile list of allegations to be put to the Prosecutors office ... including sexual fantasies, both male and female

- Phone Corriere Dell Umbria and ask if the audio for Saturday's and subsquent hearings can be made available, and when

- Prepare note thanking Maresca for his magnificent work representing the civilized section of society at Saturday's hearing.

- Ask Monte Dei Paschi di Siena to reserve a place of honour for Mr Maresca at the Palio on the 2nd of July. I am sure there will be plenty of people, up to and including the President and the Mayor of Siena, who would be happy to give up their seat for him .... Florentine or not!!

NB: In a year or two's time we could ask for the same for the Kercher Family, but I think that at the moment they've had enough of Italy?.
 
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Sorry, I thought you knew that the Perugia leg of the trip is soley about confronting the relevant serving officals with their alleged shortcomings?.

My 'To Do List' is now shaping up something like this:

- Amnesty International Reports on Police brutality in Italy ... to be made required reading for all overseas students heading for Italy?

- Compile list of allegations to put to Perugia Police Chief, Perugia Police Union and Italian Police National Conference.

- Compile list of allegations to be put to the Prosecutors office ... including sexual fantasies, both male and female

- Phone Corriere Dell Umbria and ask if the audio for Saturday's and subsquent hearings can be made available, and when

- Prepare note thanking Maresca for his magnificent work representing the civilized section of society at Saturday's hearing.

- Ask Monte Dei Paschi di Siena to reserve a place of honour for Mr Maresca at the Palio on the 2nd of July. I am sure there will be plenty of people, up to and including the President and the Mayor of Siena, who would be happy to give up their seat for him .... Florentine or not!!

NB: In a year or two's time we could ask for the same for the Kercher Family, but I think that at the moment they've had enough of Italy?.


I did, but as I told you it might be too papist for some tastes.

However, given your ideas on the discovery of 'America', you may be able to attract a certain crowd :)

This (subject) is certainly fertile ground.

ETA Before responding it might be wise to review our recent posts.
 
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Why do you think Maresca will not turn up in court on the 27 of june with a picture of Meridith Kercher demanding that Rudy tell the court and the world how she died, BTW he is already on record demanding Rudy only be asked if he spoke to Alessi


Maresca is ALL about finding justice for the Kercher family. :/

Don't open the knife, don't question Rudy Guede about what happened that night, don't allow anything that could prove Amanda and Raffaele are innocent. Real truth seeker. The Kerchers should fire him honestly. They should find someone who will speak the truth and not serve their own self-interests. Maresca wins the top-slime prize. I wonder if the Perugia Police dept can give him an honorary medal like the ones they received. It's really strange that the Kercher's lawyer is playing such a loud, annoying role in the appeal of Amanda and Raffaele. It never leaves my mind that he did not appeal against the reduction in Rudy Guede's sentence. His role is clearly to do everything possible not to allow the convictions,of Amanda and Raffaele, to be over-turned.
 
I hope hearing the convicts testify doesn't turn out to be a mistake. It seems like it could really be a diversion from the main points in the appeal. I wish the semen stain could have been tested and ToD reviewed instead.
 
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I hope hearing the convicts testify doesn't turn out to be a mistake. It seems like it could really be a diversion from the main points in the appeal. I wish the semen stain could have been tested and ToD reviewed instead.

What I don't understand about this is all the attention on Alessi, Aviello etc, when the real news of the day was that Rudy Guede will come to the stand! I just went through my 'google alert' collection, and the majority of the stories are headlined or lead with 'child-killer testifies' 'mafioso testifies' which really doesn't have much to do with what they're testifying about, nor is it all that exciting compared to Rudy Guede being called to testify! It's almost like these stories were written before the court hearing, being as everyone more or less knew what those guys were going to say, anyway.

However, there's exactly one eyewitness to this crime, and he's going to be called to the stand, it would seem that's the real story of the day. Whether he will be testifying on just what Alessi said, or whether he will be questioned further by the defense and prosecutors is a fascinating development. We know where Maresca stands, however it was the prosecution that called him, so therefore it would seem they'd at least want to ask him the question, wouldn't you? I'm not sure I want to know what he'd give as an answer, but I cannot quite see how the prosecution could defend not demanding he give an account of that nights events.

So...where's all the stories and discussion on that? I just don't get it!
 
Well, Maresca has forced me to update my scheduled trip to Siena and Perugia, starting 1st July.

We'll be arriving at Firenze Porta Santa Maria Novella Station before heading south to Siena.

I feel that I have no option but to leave a note at the reception to his office, reading:

*********** GOOD ON YER KID !!!

He first had that disgusting pervert running for cover with shame, and then reduced the Cammora slob to an incoherent, pathetic, raging, non-entity ... which we all know he is.

So I take it that you approve of the use of ad hominem attacks and blantent attempts to sway that jury by the use of emotion rather then facts?

Do you really think that attacking the person instead of their story and using emotion rather than evidence is the best way for a justice system to work?

Do you also believe that standing in the way of trying to discover the truth by objecting to lines of questioning or actions that could prove not to be favouriable to the Prosecution is a good way to behave in a justice system?
 
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1) If either Alessi (plus alleged corroborators) or Aviello are shown to be correct and reliable in their testimony, it will in a single stroke deliver a fatal blow to the prosecution's case. My own take (FWIW) is that they are more likely than not to be being untruthful, but we shall see.

Not actually true. Alessi (plus alleged corroborators) or Aviello could shown to be correct and reliable in their testimony, but that Geude was lying to them, so while they are telling the truth about what he told them, since he was lying their testimony would be on no relevance.

I suspect the main use of the defence wanting their stories heard and evaluated in open court was not for what they had to say, but that it would result in Guede being summoned and they want a crack at him.
 
What I don't understand about this is all the attention on Alessi, Aviello etc, when the real news of the day was that Rudy Guede will come to the stand! I just went through my 'google alert' collection, and the majority of the stories are headlined or lead with 'child-killer testifies' 'mafioso testifies' which really doesn't have much to do with what they're testifying about, nor is it all that exciting compared to Rudy Guede being called to testify! It's almost like these stories were written before the court hearing, being as everyone more or less knew what those guys were going to say, anyway.

However, there's exactly one eyewitness to this crime, and he's going to be called to the stand, it would seem that's the real story of the day. Whether he will be testifying on just what Alessi said, or whether he will be questioned further by the defense and prosecutors is a fascinating development. We know where Maresca stands, however it was the prosecution that called him, so therefore it would seem they'd at least want to ask him the question, wouldn't you? I'm not sure I want to know what he'd give as an answer, but I cannot quite see how the prosecution could defend not demanding he give an account of that nights events.

So...where's all the stories and discussion on that? I just don't get it!


I agree. Rudy Guede being called up is the big news of the day. It doesn't surprise me that it didn't healine though; in the first trial key points were often ignored in favor of what Amanda was wearing or how she smiled. His own headline day is coming up soon though. It IS fascinating. This whole case is endlessly fascinating and in so many different ways.

I think almost anything could happen when Rudy Guede takes the stand. I could really see him breaking down and saying Amanda and Raffaele are innocent and he cut a deal with Mignini. He will probably be to well coached for that... but you never know....
 
This sudden outbreak of respect for the majesty and independence of the Italian 'jury' is to be commended.

But given that a previous 'jury', the one posters here are probably most familiar with, didn't find AK credible are you suggesting 'the baby killer' [or 'the mobster' who contradicted* him] has a better shot ?

*And had something to say about a simulated break in - who told Aviello to include that, one wonders ?

Platonov, before you go on another gish gallup, have you agreed that the time of death is before 10:30?
 
So the production of & testimony from 'the baby killer & co' and 'the mobster' - and any subsequent testimony from RG - can have no downside for AK & RS under any circumstances but only a possible upside and may indeed secure an acquittal for the pair.

OK, that's that cleared that up.

Obviously the AK/RS defence teams would have been crazy not to go this route if that is indeed the case.
Guys like these must be in much demand in murder trials.

Platonov, before you go on, did you agree to a time of death before 10:30?
 
I'm sure all will go well with the testimony of one convicted murderer (Alessi) or another (Guede). :rolleyes:

I wonder does it shame Italy that they are not near as big a liars as the police the state forenzic experts or as hallucinogenic as judge Massei the judge of the trial of first instance or the state prosecuter Mignini
 
Not actually true. Alessi (plus alleged corroborators) or Aviello could shown to be correct and reliable in their testimony, but that Geude was lying to them, so while they are telling the truth about what he told them, since he was lying their testimony would be on no relevance.

I suspect the only truth Aviello might have spoken yesterday was that the judiciary is a clan. He said that because he has seven defamation suits against him, which may be because he likes to testify in trials like this. A daytrip kinda thing, better than being in jail for the day. Apparently he put on quite a show, but as I recall it amounted to a story of a a break-in to the wrong residence, but where the break-in was staged. That sounds like a story tailored to the press reports, I bet the fact the keys were missing was on local news, just like the knife definitely was.

Alessi and the police informant, Marco Castelluccio, along with a third guy I've heard nothing about, all testified they heard Guede say Raffaele and Amanda weren't involved. As on the 27th, Giacomo Benedett, the guy Rudy talked to over Skype and two police officers from the questura will testify, that may be more corroboration to the basic story that Rudy said Raffaele and Amanda weren't there. I'm not sure if the police officers are the ones involved in the Skype investigation, but it would make sense if they're appearing with Benedett.

So if Rudy testifies, it might be after six people have testified that he did say Raffaele and Amanda weren't there, the latter three being a whole lot more credible that the ones yesterday. It must be sad for some to have to face the fact that some of the ones they're disparaging now as lowlifes are clever enough to realize Raffaele and Amanda are innocent, and despite the fact it might cost them are willing to say so on the record.

I suspect the main use of the defence wanting their stories heard and evaluated in open court was not for what they had to say, but that it would result in Guede being summoned and they want a crack at him.

If I have this right, Katody might have been on to something here: where is Mignini's name in all of this? Or Comodi's? Why is Maresca having to publicly plead for Rudy not to have to answer questions, he's always been in like Flynn with them before, hugging buddies as Halides recent reminded us. Maybe this prosecutor was unamused by the Bob Graham tape he received, and Mignini's pathetic lies about it, saying it was an informal chat when it apparently was a sit down interview with interpreters and photographers?

Perhaps this Costagliano fellow believes in the whole 'inquisitorial search for the truth' idea? Maybe he's honest and has given Mignini enough rope to hang himself, and now he's going to tighten the noose and kick the horse in the ass? With the DNA report coming in around the same time, if Rudy has to go on the stand having had six people testify before him that he said Raffaele and Amanda weren't involved, maybe he has made a 'deal' with the prosecution--to actually tell the truth and end this travesty?

Who knows, but it's a nice dream anyway! :)
 
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Maresca is ALL about finding justice for the Kercher family. :/

Don't open the knife, don't question Rudy Guede about what happened that night, don't allow anything that could prove Amanda and Raffaele are innocent. Real truth seeker. The Kerchers should fire him honestly. They should find someone who will speak the truth and not serve their own self-interests. Maresca wins the top-slime prize. I wonder if the Perugia Police dept can give him an honorary medal like the ones they received. It's really strange that the Kercher's lawyer is playing such a loud, annoying role in the appeal of Amanda and Raffaele. It never leaves my mind that he did not appeal against the reduction in Rudy Guede's sentence. His role is clearly to do everything possible not to allow the convictions,of Amanda and Raffaele, to be over-turned.

What's nauseating about Maresca is that he's too smart to not know that AK and RS are innocent. His actions against revealing the truth show he knows that truth is damaging to his case. In all of it he betrayed his clients, Kerchers.
 
I wonder does it shame Italy that they are not near as big a liars as the police the state forenzic experts or as hallucinogenic as judge Massei the judge of the trial of first instance or the state prosecuter Mignini

Do you mind re-posting that in English?
 
Not actually true. Alessi (plus alleged corroborators) or Aviello could shown to be correct and reliable in their testimony, but that Geude was lying to them, so while they are telling the truth about what he told them, since he was lying their testimony would be on no relevance.

I suspect the main use of the defence wanting their stories heard and evaluated in open court was not for what they had to say, but that it would result in Guede being summoned and they want a crack at him.


I disagree. Firstly, if Aviello's testimony is shown to be accurate and reliable, then it has nothing to do with Guede lying or not (remember that Aviello claims that his brother and another man were responsible, and that he knows where the knife and keys were hidden).

With Alessi, I would agree that the situation is a little more complex. We essentially have three possible scenarios, given that Alessi's version is that Guede told him that Knox and Sollecito weren't involved: a) Guede confirms that he said this, and confirms that it's the truth; b) Guede confirms that he said this, but says that he was lying when he said it; c) Guede denies that he said this.

If (a), then there's a very high probability of acquittal one that one piece of testimony alone (barring the prosecution or court somehow being able to show that Guede is lying when he says that this is a true version of events).

If (b), then the court would have to establish to its satisfaction why Guede would choose to lie to Alessi about Knox's/Sollecito's involvement. What motivation would he have to say that they weren't involved, other than if that was the truth? I would say that (b) still makes a huge dent in the case against Knox and Sollecito, for that reason.

If (c), then the court would still have to weigh up whether Guede was lying on the stand in his denial of ever saying this to Alessi. In this evaluation, they would look at the relative motivations of Guede and Alessi (and the alleged corroborators). I suspect that the court would have little option but to conclude that Alessi and the corroborators were likely lying, unless there was any other independent corroboration.
 
What's nauseating about Maresca is that he's too smart to not know that AK and RS are innocent. His actions against revealing the truth show he knows that truth is damaging to his case. In all of it he betrayed his clients, Kerchers.



Looking at the last article by Mr. Kercher and the list of the "cold, hard facts of the case" that Mr. Kercher considers evidence of guilt it is difficult for me to put all the blame on Maresca for the opinions of Mr. Kercher.

They say the DNA samples — Meredith’s on the tip of the blade, Knox’s on the handle — are too small to be admissible as evidence. They also argue that DNA on a clasp from Meredith’s bra, found in her room six weeks after her body was discovered, could have been contaminated.
This is disputed by the top forensics team from Rome, led by Patrizia Stefanoni, an internationally respected forensic scientist. The fact that recently, in Britain, someone was convicted on 17-year-old DNA evidence is ignored by the defence.

I keep hearing this internationally respected forensic scientist claim. Where does this come from? Is it a cold hard fact? It is interesting that any evidence remaining on that bra clasp did not last anywhere close to the 17 years mentioned by Mr. Kercher that the defense ignored.

Knox’s supporters in America, while concentrating on the DNA, do not seem to be aware of the huge body of other evidence that was given. Under Italian law a judge has to write an official report on how a verdict was reached. Judge Giancarlo Massei, who presided at the trial of Knox and Sollecito, produced a 400-page report.

It is clear that Knox's supporters are very aware of this 400-page report. Has Mr. Kercher read this report? Apparently so based on this next quote:

It is quite revealing, showing that — although Knox’s DNA and Meredith’s genetic material were found mixed together in several locations in the bathroom — much more than the DNA evidence was responsible for the decision to convict.

I have to assume that Mr. Kercher is well aware that Knox's DNA mixed with Meredith's in a shared bathroom is to be expected. That does not take any special knowledge to understand that.

Here are the other cold, hard facts that Mr. Kercher lists:

• Sollecito claimed to have been working at his computer on the evening of the murder, but computer records show that it was inactive. Both Sollecito’s and Knox’s mobile phones were switched off that night.

We know that Knox's mobile phone was switched off because she said it was, there is no proof that Raffaele's was switched off because phone companies don't track the switching on and off of phones.

The other claim is not a fact either, in fact, the opposite is claimed by the defense. Surely Mr. Kercher is aware of just how expert the police computer expert was shown to be?

• A witness saw the couple several times in the vicinity of the cottage on the night of the killing, although they said they were at Sollecito’s home. Their alibis changed nine times, with Sollecito saying that he could not remember whether Knox was with him all evening. They even hinted at putting the blame on each other. Apart from Meredith, only Knox and two other flatmates, who were away at the time, had keys to the cottage.

Is Mr. Kercher aware of the problems with the testimony of this witness? This is not an established fact either. The fact is this witness is completely unreliable and his testimony has already been shown to contain errors.

• Sollecito’s naked footprint was found on a bathmat in the cottage; and Knox’s footprints were found outside Meredith’s room, in the passageway and in another room, where police believe a break-in was staged. (These footprints were revealed with luminol

Is it a fact that it is Sollecito's "naked footprint"? This is another prosecution expert that has been shown not to be so expert. The fact is that even this expert concluded that Sollecito's print could not be excluded while the defense expert said it could be excluded. Is Mr. Kercher aware of the negative TMB tests on these Luminol revealed footprints? Is he aware that these prints could come from any number of people, could have been made even before the murder and could have been made with something other than blood? These are not "cold, hard facts" either.

As for the “break-in”, the police immediately noticed that glass from a broken window was on top of clothes supposedly scattered by an intruder. The glass would have been under the clothes if the window had been broken before the room was ransacked. No valuables were taken, and a real burglar would have found far easier access to the house without breaking a window.

Has Mr. Kercher looked at the pictures of this scene? There is no glass shown to be on top of the clothes and if there was there is no proof that the clothes were not already there when the window was broken. Is he aware that Filomena also testified of glass under the clothes and in the middle of the clothes? Is Mr. Kercher's opinion of what a "real burglar would do a "cold, hard fact? Is he aware that Rudy has a history of breaking windows during break-ins?

• Sollecito told the police that nothing had been taken from the room supposedly broken into. But how would he know? It was used by an Italian girl, not present on the night of the killing, who had not yet checked it out for herself.

Maybe Knox told him she saw nothing missing.

• Knox described the position of Meredith’s body and how she had died, although she had not been able to see into Meredith’s room when the door was broken down by the police.

Is Mr. Kercher aware that Knox's description of the position of the body was not correct?

There are many more factors, almost 20 in all, among them the suspicion that there may have been something ritualistic about Meredith’s death. The prosecutor was criticised for mentioning this, but she was killed on the eve of the Day of the Dead, November 2.

Is Mr. Kercher giving credence to Mignini's fantasies?

Sollecito was said to have Japanese manga comics that described the rape and killing of female vampires. Meredith had been dressed as a vampire to celebrate Hallowe’en.

Is Mr. Kercher claiming that because of this it is possible, in fact quite probable that Sollecito killed someone who had been dressed as a vampire the night before?

Guede, who admitted having been in the cottage on the night of the murder, fled the premises and went to a disco before escaping to Germany, where he was arrested. So who cleaned up the house in an attempt to remove all traces of their presence that night?

Has Mr. Kercher considered that traces of their presence that night are not showing up because they were not there?

The "cold, hard facts" listed by Mr. Kercher are either highly questionable, highly disputed, completely discredited, or pure fantasy. I don't know who he is getting his information from, but he should be aware of the cold, hard facts about his list of the not so "cold, hard facts".
 
It is difficult to say exactly what Rudy told Giacomo during the Skype call - it was a long talk and Rudy said so many things and the things he said were very confusing.

He was clear about Amanda's lack of involvement, though. Here's excerpt from Micheli

il BENEDETTI gli aveva chiesto se fossero stati AMANDA - avendo capito che RUDI la conosceva - o il LUMUMBA, e l’altro gli aveva scritto di no, usando per la ragazza l’espressione “non c’entra” e per il congolese quella rafforzata di “non c’entra un cazzo”. Il responsabile, per quel che l’imputato diceva, era un italiano giovane, e alla domanda se fosse stato il SOLLECITO (la cui immagine era su tutti i giornali, e sicuramente scaricabile via internet) egli aveva risposto in termini vaghi, più o meno con una frase del tipo “boh, non lo so, penso di sì”, ripetendo però più volte, nel sentirsi riproporre la domanda, quel “penso di sì”

and translated by Tiziano:

Benedetti asked him whether it had been Amanda - having understood that Rudi knew her - or Lumumba, and that he had written no, using the expression "she's got nothing to do with it" for the girl and for Lumumba the emphatic "he's got *********** nothing to do with it". As far as what the accused said, a young Italian was responsible, and to the question whether this had been Sollecito (whose photo was in all the newspapers, and certainly downloadable from the internet) he had replied in vague terms, more or less a phrase like "oh well, I don't know, I think so", repeating however a few times, upon hearing the question put to him again, "I think so"

His version then was "some Italian guy". He wasn't sure if it was Sollecito he saw, but he was sure Amanda had nothing to do with it.

If Guede told Giacomo yet another story when visited in jail, he will be confronted about it. I don't doubt Maresca and Mignini will fight tooth and nail against any such questions but I don't think Hellmann endured all that circus yesterday to ask Guede only if he talked with Alessi or not.
 
The "cold, hard facts" listed by Mr. Kercher are either highly questionable, highly disputed, completely discredited, or pure fantasy. I don't know who he is getting his information from, but he should be aware of the cold, hard facts about his list of the not so "cold, hard facts".

Some of it comes straight from Mignini, some of it reeks of TJMK and Harry Rag. In my opinion it was Maresca's duty to honestly brief Kercher about the problems and weaknesses of those pieces of evidence. Looks to me he's more loyal to Mignini and his goons then to his client.
 
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