Vaccine/autism CT discussion

[excaza]

Intelligence is the key here. I can see past obvious double talk and purposeful agenda driven misspeak. Just plain inability of most here to perceive around a corner let alone beyond and down the road gives you three strikes.

This makes absolutely no sense, nor does it even remotely answer the question posed to you.

 

[fullflavormenthol]

How many fevers will a baby get from vaccines before he gets a seizure while he's "sleeping unattended" in another room?

I don't know. How much pointless link spamming are you going to pull here before you realize that people here will actually follow up on your links? Are you ever going to realize that posting nonsense is not a substitute for an informed opinion or response?

 

[JimBenArm]

Intelligence is the key here. I can see past obvious double talk and purposeful agenda driven misspeak. Just plain inability of most here to perceive around a corner let alone beyond and down the road gives you three strikes.

Yes, you're so much brighter than all the rest of us. So much so, that you can't interpret data that is obvious to a third-grader, misunderstand how controls work, can't read simple articles correctly, and suffer from the most extreme case of confirmation bias the world has ever know. Plus your mother dresses you funny.

 

[Scott Sommers]

Intelligence is the key here. I can see past obvious double talk and purposeful agenda driven misspeak. Just plain inability of most here to perceive around a corner let alone beyond and down the road gives you three strikes.

So it is folk reasoning here and you're honest about it. It doesn't matter that you don't know what a log adds calculation does or anything about the debate about units of measurement? At least you're up front about it.

So would you go so far as to say that scientists and engineers don't need to go to school to learn anything? Is it even important to know how to read and write? Do addition and subtraction? These are serious questions. How much 'knowledge' does one need before understanding such matters as medical research methodology becomes so basic anyone with 'intelligence' can understand it?

 

[Giordano]

I tend to lurk on the Randi board, and only drop in to participate in a very few threads. I dropped into this one because, for some reason, I had the feeling that Clayton Moore had been mis-informed on vaccinations, rather than ideologically driven. Perhaps because he never used all caps or 24 point red fonts. Perhaps, I thought, he might even be willing to reconsider some of his other views, such as the proper place in society for women with children.

But once again, when backed into a corner with facts and statistics, CM changed the subject away from autism, and switched back to one of his other standbys, "why vaccinate against less-lethal diseases." Then he returned to fevers and seizures. So here we are, having made another big circle. I'm sure that in a few more pages, confronted by how bad a disease measles really is, and that reactions to vaccines are less risky than the diseases themselves, CM will switch back to mercury in vaccines, and then back to autism. Sorry- merry-go-rounds make me ill. I'm getting off. Good luck to all with stronger stomachs! And thanks to the pro-vaxers- I learned more than I knew before!

 

[Clayton Moore]

I tend to lurk on the Randi board, and only drop in to participate in a very few threads. I dropped into this one because, for some reason, I had the feeling that Clayton Moore had been mis-informed on vaccinations, rather than ideologically driven. Perhaps because he never used all caps or 24 point red fonts. Perhaps, I thought, he might even be willing to reconsider some of his other views, such as the proper place in society for women with children.

But once again, when backed into a corner with facts and statistics, CM changed the subject away from autism, and switched back to one of his other standbys, "why vaccinate against less-lethal diseases." Then he returned to fevers and seizures. So here we are, having made another big circle. I'm sure that in a few more pages, confronted by how bad a disease measles really is, and that reactions to vaccines are less risky than the diseases themselves, CM will switch back to mercury in vaccines, and then back to autism. Sorry- merry-go-rounds make me ill. I'm getting off. Good luck to all with stronger stomachs! And thanks to the pro-vaxers- I learned more than I knew before!

So you think the throw weight of the medical community can't figure out why toddlers world wide are becoming brain damaged between the age of 18 months and 2 years old?

Autism investigators:

Who/what's in the room with victim when the assault took place? Excluding vaccines of course.

Knowing that fevers can cause seizures and that seizures can cause brain damage, what could cause babies to get fevers? Excluding vaccines of course.


http://www.emedicinehealth.com/seizures_and_fever/article_em.htm


Seizures and Fever Overview

Febrile seizures, also known as convulsions, body spasms, or shaking, occur mainly in children and are caused by fever. (Febrile is derived from the Latin febris, meaning fever.) As with most types of seizures, the onset is dramatic, with little or no warning. In most instances, the seizure lasts only a few minutes and stops on its own.

Febrile seizures may occur because a child's developing brain is sensitive to the effects of fever. These seizures are most likely to occur with high body temperatures (higher than 102°F) but may also occur with milder fevers. The sudden rise in temperature seems to be more important than the degree of temperature. The seizure may occur with the initial onset of fever before a child’s caregiver is even aware the child is ill.

 

[beren]

The diseases would cause more and worse fevers than the vaccines.

 

[Travis]

Oh come now. Whoever heard of a disease causing a fever? Clearly fevers cause disease!

 

[Scott Sommers]

So you think the throw weight of the medical community can't figure out why toddlers world wide are becoming brain damaged between the age of 18 months and 2 years old?

Autism investigators:

Who/what's in the room with victim when the assault took place? Excluding vaccines of course.

Knowing that fevers can cause seizures and that seizures can cause brain damage, what could cause babies to get fevers? Excluding vaccines of course.


http://www.emedicinehealth.com/seizures_and_fever/article_em.htm


Seizures and Fever Overview

So Clayton, what you're telling me is that you do this kind of linguistic analysis based on lists of symptoms you found on the Internet and some other things. So who cares about controlled studies and what they find anyway? What could their results have to do with disease, anyway?

If the most powerful method of medical discover is this kind of word study that you just did, why even bother with citing medical research? It doesn't matter what it finds. Is that right?

 

[Tolls]

If 450 died in 1950 during 1950 level of cure of measles capability how many would die with the 2011 level of cure of measles capability?

There were 320,000 new cases of measles in the US in 1950.
That gives a death rate of approximately 1.5 per 1000.

According to wiki the mortality rate in the US between 1987 and 2000 for measles was 3 per 1000. Obviously this is going to be skewed because the people most susceptible to the disease are also those who are likely not be able to be vaccinated.

The mortality rate in the UK is placed at something like 1 in 5000.
Using that figure we have 60-70 deaths for 1950. Assuming the ratio of deaths to those who get encephalitis (there were about 10x as many of those cases as deaths in 1950), you get 6-700. Which is not insignificant.

 

[Tomblvd]

So you think the throw weight of the medical community can't figure out why toddlers world wide are becoming brain damaged between the age of 18 months and 2 years old?

Autism investigators:

Who/what's in the room with victim when the assault took place? Excluding vaccines of course.

Knowing that fevers can cause seizures and that seizures can cause brain damage, what could cause babies to get fevers? Excluding vaccines of course.


http://www.emedicinehealth.com/seizures_and_fever/article_em.htm


Seizures and Fever Overview

I'm not sure why you are focusing on febrile seizures, but you conveniently left out some important points from your link:

The seizure itself is almost always harmless. It does not cause brain damage or lead to epilepsy.

and:

Most fevers associated with febrile seizures are due to the usual causes of fever in young children—namely, common viral and mild bacterial infections such as ear infections.

So you were saying?

 

[excaza]

So you think the throw weight of the medical community can't figure out why toddlers world wide are becoming brain damaged between the age of 18 months and 2 years old?

There are plenty of things the throw weight of the medical community can't figure out yet. This includes simple things like...preventing the common cold. I honestly can't fathom why you're focusing your incredulity on autism.

Knowing that fevers can cause seizures and that seizures can cause brain damage, what could cause babies to get fevers? Excluding vaccines of course.

Are these the same febrile seizures that (per your own links) are rarely caused by vaccinations, and very rarely cause brain damage? Your dishonesty and cherry picking is blatant, do you really think nobody is checking the sources you are quoting?

 

[ElMondoHummus]

I think there was a Japanese study too, but I'll have to go dig for that to see if I remember correctly.

Aha. Not one but two.

RESULTS: The MMR vaccination rate in the city of Yokohama declined significantly in the birth cohorts of years 1988 through 1992, and not a single vaccination was administered in 1993 or thereafter. In contrast, cumulative incidence of ASD up to age seven increased significantly in the birth cohorts of years 1988 through 1996 and most notably rose dramatically beginning with the birth cohort of 1993. CONCLUSIONS: The significance of this finding is that MMR vaccination is most unlikely to be a main cause of ASD, that it cannot explain the rise over time in the incidence of ASD, and that withdrawal of MMR in countries where it is still being used cannot be expected to lead to a reduction in the incidence of ASD.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15877763

It has been suggested that the measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine (MMR) is a cause of regressive autism. As MMR was used in Japan only between 1989 and 1993, this time period affords a natural experiment to examine this hypothesis. Data on 904 patients with autism spectrum disorders (ASD) were analyzed. During the period of MMR usage no significant difference was found in the incidence of regression between MMR-vaccinated children and non-vaccinated children. Among the proportion and incidence of regression across the three MMR-program-related periods (before, during and after MMR usage), no significant difference was found between those who had received MMR and those who had not. Moreover, the incidence of regression did not change significantly across the three periods.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16865547​

Ok, I'll need to read those in order to see if "unvaccinated" means none at all, or just no MMR (meaning that others were given). Given that the second study noted an uptick of mumps and measles both, it's obvious that individual vaccinations for those diseases were not used either, but I'll admit, it's unclear that those two studies were referring to no vaccines whatsoever - including but not restricted to MMR - or were merely referring to no MMR. Regardless, in context with the Danish and Polish studies, the trend is clear: There's simply no link.

 

[AmandaM]

They don't.

(referring to the question of whether unvaccinated children get autism)

Clayton, you are simply wrong on this point.

I travel a lot and since I'm now pregnant, I have been attending mom's cafes in a number of cities around my area. I have personally spoken to mothers who have admitted they avoided vaccines because of the autism fear, but their children were diagnosed on the spectrum. One mother tearfully confessed that her first two children were vaccinated (and had no problems) but she was so worried about the "threat" of autism that she withheld ALL vaccines from her third son -- and he was the one diagnosed ASD.

Why won't you won't find hundreds of mothers lining up to be a part of "non-vaccinated children who were diagnosed with autism" studies is SHAME and embarrassment. Many of these women felt they were doing the right thing at the time, but NOW think they somehow "caused" their child's disorder. (It's not logical; it's emotional, but I can totally understand it.)

Some of these mothers have family members that are now doing the "I told you so" dance -- at the same time that the mothers themselves are trying to find a way to accept, accommodate, and "live with" their child's condition -- and that is in no way an easy thing for them to do. NOBODY wants to be told, "see you were being paranoid for nothing" when their dreams for their child's future seem to be slipping away.

 

[Clayton Moore]

(referring to the question of whether unvaccinated children get autism)

Clayton, you are simply wrong on this point.

I travel a lot and since I'm now pregnant, I have been attending mom's cafes in a number of cities around my area. I have personally spoken to mothers who have admitted they avoided vaccines because of the autism fear, but their children were diagnosed on the spectrum. One mother tearfully confessed that her first two children were vaccinated (and had no problems) but she was so worried about the "threat" of autism that she withheld ALL vaccines from her third son -- and he was the one diagnosed ASD.

I don't believe you. Why would a woman think that abstaining from vaccines would make her somehow at fault for her son's autism.

One mother tearfully confessed

Gag.

 

[Tomblvd]

One mother tearfully confessed

Gag.

Clayton's making fun of parents with autistic children!!!

I don't believe you. Why would a woman think that abstaining from vaccines would make her somehow at fault for her son's autism.

Why?

Because there are people out there who confuse correlation with causation.

And you have been proven wrong again. There are children with autism that have not been vaccinated.

 

[Travis]

I don't believe you. Why would a woman think that abstaining from vaccines would make her somehow at fault for her son's autism.

One mother tearfully confessed

Gag.

And we equally can't figure out why so many think the vaccines caused the Autism.

 

[carlitos]

I think it's an act. No one could post such a tragic combination of ignorant, self-confident and caustic ideas, only seemingly tied together by some vague goal of being counter to mainstream thought.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Clayton's making fun of parents with autistic children!!!



Why?

Because there are people out there who confuse correlation with causation.

And you have been proven wrong again. There are children with autism that have not been vaccinated.

I was revolted by an obvious lie.

People tearfully confessing?

GAG, GAG.

 

[JimBenArm]

I was revolted by an obvious lie.

People tearfully confessing?

GAG, GAG.

Yes, because that never happens. It only happens when people give their children the autism vaccines. On purpose. Because they hate their children.