Anyone following the Casey Anthony trial

[wasapi]

Oh boy... if true, I guess this shows how desperate the defense is.

However, if you have at least one juror who believes in psychics, this ploy just may work...

Yes. They said the name of the psychic, but I can't recall it now. I'm sure it is on-line somewhere, on at least one of the many sites covering the case.

But what could she say? That she had a 'vision' of the child drowning and the defendant's father was responsible? Since when does a court allow that type of testimony to be heard as evidence? This judge has been referred to as "a no nonsense judge". If anything qualified as nonsense, I would think calling a psychic as a witness - in a capital case no less - is somewhere at the top of the list of nonsense.

 

[triforcharity]

Crazy as it seems, they couldn't legally disallow the psychic to be called, as there have been other cases where psychics have been used to find evidence, etc. What they plan on doing with it, is anyones guess.

Mark my words, I don't believe she will get 1st deg. Murder conviction. If anything, negligent homicide, something like that, but the defense doesn't have to prove anything. All that they have to do is create reasonable doubt, which they just might be able to do.....

 

[wasapi]

Crazy as it seems, they couldn't legally disallow the psychic to be called, as there have been other cases where psychics have been used to find evidence, etc. What they plan on doing with it, is anyones guess.

Mark my words, I don't believe she will get 1st deg. Murder conviction. If anything, negligent homicide, something like that, but the defense doesn't have to prove anything. All that they have to do is create reasonable doubt, which they just might be able to do.....

Interesting. I didn't realize that about psychic testimony.

Even if she does get 1st degree, I don't believe she will get the death penalty. Her parents would plead with the court, and they have become very sympathetic victims to the jury - I believe - and I don't think anyone wants them to suffer any more then they have.

 

[quadraginta]

I haven't been watching the case very closely but how does the defense explain the multiple google searches for chloroform and broken necks? That seems pretty clear that someone wanted to commit pre-meditated murder. Hmm...who could it be? The grieving grandparents or the pathological liar who partied for the month she claimed her daughter was missing?

The defense is claiming that since there's no way to prove the searches weren't hotlinks or "jokes" like RickRolls or something, there's no way to definitively say that the searches were made in the context of planning a murder.

Yes, really.

This is one aspect of the prosecution case I'm a little surprised by.

I think the whole chloroform thing is a red herring. The total time actually spent on the Google searches was miniscule, as in - only minutes were spent doing it. Nowhere near enough time to do more than skim the topics. This would be in line with someone who knew nothing about chloroform trying to figure out the caption to a joke photo, the one that her ex-boyfriend had on his MySpace page. ("Win her over with chloroform.")

Anthony wasn't the sort of person to try to homebrew chloroform, and if she wanted to drug her kid there were plenty of much simpler alternatives. If she had tried homemade stuff I expect there would be a lot more tracks left than a couple of Google hits. Kitchen fires come to mind.

The connection between that and the "elevated" levels of chloroform detected in the car trunk was a creation of the Grace Creature machine. In her hands the entire car somehow became "drenched" in chloroform.

I don't think it is needful to the prosecution's case, and it may prove to be a distraction. They might be trying to take Baez's eye off the ball, but that seems like a waste of time to me. He's not even looking at the pitcher's mound.

 

[triforcharity]

Interesting. I didn't realize that about psychic testimony.

It's not often, but I have heard of it.

http://www.customessaymeister.com/customessays/Criminology/8071.htm

Even if she does get 1st degree, I don't believe she will get the death penalty. Her parents would plead with the court, and they have become very sympathetic victims to the jury - I believe - and I don't think anyone wants them to suffer any more then they have.

I will agree with that. She also is not really eligable for the death penalty in the state of Florida, because of a severe lack of aggravating circumstances.
(Such as horrible death, buried alive, rape or molestation prior to death, burtality of the death itself, etc)

John Couey was sentenced to death due to his rape and kidnapping of Jessica Lunsford, Mark Schwab, same thing. Both received the death penalty because of their heinous crimes.

Since the State cannot prove CAUSE of death, they cannot contend that her death was horrendous or brutal.

Don't get me wrong, I think she is as guilty as sin, but I just don't think the state has enough to convict her, or put her to death.

 

[quadraginta]

Oh . . . say it isn't so. i just heard that the defense is calling a psychic as a witness.

<snip>

Oh boy... if true, I guess this shows how desperate the defense is.

However, if you have at least one juror who believes in psychics, this ploy just may work...

Yes. They said the name of the psychic, but I can't recall it now. I'm sure it is on-line somewhere, on at least one of the many sites covering the case.

But what could she say? That she had a 'vision' of the child drowning and the defendant's father was responsible? Since when does a court allow that type of testimony to be heard as evidence? This judge has been referred to as "a no nonsense judge". If anything qualified as nonsense, I would think calling a psychic as a witness - in a capital case no less - is somewhere at the top of the list of nonsense.

Crazy as it seems, they couldn't legally disallow the psychic to be called, as there have been other cases where psychics have been used to find evidence, etc. What they plan on doing with it, is anyones guess.

Mark my words, I don't believe she will get 1st deg. Murder conviction. If anything, negligent homicide, something like that, but the defense doesn't have to prove anything. All that they have to do is create reasonable doubt, which they just might be able to do.....

Interesting. I didn't realize that about psychic testimony.

It's not often, but I have heard of it.

http://www.customessaymeister.com/customessays/Criminology/8071.htm

There are actually two self-proclaimed "psychics" that managed to involve themselves in this case at different times during its weird genesis. Ginnette Lucas and Gale St. John.

Only one has been submitted as a witness by the defense (.pdf witness list here), "Gail [sic] St. John", head honcho of "The Body Hunters".

Her testimony, should it be elicited in trial, will not be related to her psychic skills, though, but rather to try to establish the condition of the site where Caylee's remains were dumped. One of the defense's main assertions is that Caylee was moved from ???? to where she was finally found by LE. Critical to this claim is a question about whether or not the site was under water during the times that Texas EquuSearch (and, separately, St. John) looked around that area. St. John has video of herself, assistant, and search dog driving around the vicinity, and stopping very close to the dump site itself.

Although her reason for being there was "psychic", the evidence she is being asked to supply is not.

Even if she does get 1st degree, I don't believe she will get the death penalty. Her parents would plead with the court, and they have become very sympathetic victims to the jury - I believe - and I don't think anyone wants them to suffer any more then they have.

I will agree with that. She also is not really eligable for the death penalty in the state of Florida, because of a severe lack of aggravating circumstances.
(Such as horrible death, buried alive, rape or molestation prior to death, burtality of the death itself, etc)

If she is found guilty of felony child abuse, that could constitute a sufficiently aggravating factor to trigger the DP. I'm not saying that it would, but it isn't impossible.

John Couey was sentenced to death due to his rape and kidnapping of Jessica Lunsford, Mark Schwab, same thing. Both received the death penalty because of their heinous crimes.

Since the State cannot prove CAUSE of death, they cannot contend that her death was horrendous or brutal.

It is not needful for the state to prove exactly what mechanism caused Caylee's death for the jury to arrive at a conclusion that the death was a homicide, only that it was some overt act by the defendant.

It's a hell of a lot easier to get a homicide conviction if they can, but it isn't an essential element.

Dr. Garavaglia's testimony for the prosecution was a step in this direction. She pointed out that accidental drowning victims don't get hidden for thirty one days, especially when they are children, and they don't come with duct tape.

If the result is a felony murder conviction then the manner of death itself is not the only basis for the DP.

Don't get me wrong, I think she is as guilty as sin, but I just don't think the state has enough to convict her, or put her to death.

To be honest, I don't think a DP conviction is very likely either, but I'm a bit more hopeful about a lesser charge. I think that aggravated manslaughter is the very least she'll get off with.

 

[Moon-Spinner]

Does the jury have the choice of what level of a murder charge to convict Casey Anthony of? "Murder One" vs a lesser Homicide charge? The prosecution appears to be going for a Premeditated Murder conviction, which means they have to convince the jury that Casey is a monster that purposefully killed her daughter (and thought nobody would notice?). If the Defense can convince the jury that there are possible other scenarios, such as accidental death, then (theoretically) the jury would have to acquit, unless they're given the choice of convicting on a lesser charge.

 

[quadraginta]

Does the jury have the choice of what level of a murder charge to convict Casey Anthony of? "Murder One" vs a lesser Homicide charge? The prosecution appears to be going for a Premeditated Murder conviction, which means they have to convince the jury that Casey is a monster that purposefully killed her daughter (and thought nobody would notice?). If the Defense can convince the jury that there are possible other scenarios, such as accidental death, then (theoretically) the jury would have to acquit, unless they're given the choice of convicting on a lesser charge.

My understanding in this case is yes, they do. They can find her guilty of a lesser, included charge. The judge's instructions to the jury before they retire to deliberate will pin that down.

That's why I think it is unlikely that she will end up with a DP sentence, and also why I think it is more likely she'll get convicted of something that will keep her locked up for a while instead of walking.

 

[Almo]

Her defense has gotten to the point where they're just trying to create doubt in the mind of ONE juror.

I don't have a problem with this. I prefer to err on the side of caution and be more certain we don't send innocents to jail for crimes they didn't commit.

 

[shandyjan]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...thony-did-the-prosecution-prove-its-case.html

It's sad to read.
The days summary is pointing to everyone except Casey as being morally bankrupt. Yet they say she is a liar. Will wait to see what comes up next.

 

[quadraginta]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...thony-did-the-prosecution-prove-its-case.html

It's sad to read.
The days summary is pointing to everyone except Casey as being morally bankrupt. Yet they say she is a liar. Will wait to see what comes up next.

Did you link to the article you meant to?

It doesn't seem to say what you are suggesting it says,

...

and it's from Tuesday.

 

[Puppycow]

I've been seeing headlines about this case for weeks but I hadn't clicked on them. I guess the scandalous thing about this is that she was partying and entering bikini contests while her daughter was missing, and didn't bother to mention it to anyone?

There's like tens of thousands of murders every year, but the press seems to glom onto certain ones and ignore all the others.

 

[Puppycow]

Have they come up with a good hateful moniker for Casey yet? Like Amanda Knox was "Foxy Knoxy."

Regarding the psychic, if I was on the jury and any other jury member seemed like they were giving any credence at all to it, I would just claim to be a psychic too and say that my psychic powers told me that the other psychic was wrong.

 

[AdMan]

Regarding the psychic, if I was on the jury and any other jury member seemed like they were giving any credence at all to it, I would just claim to be a psychic too and say that my psychic powers told me that the other psychic was wrong.

We need more skeptics in juries.

 

[sylvan8798]

There's like tens of thousands of murders every year, but the press seems to glom onto certain ones and ignore all the others.

We (the public) only have so much capacity for interest/grief for these things. We can't mourn every person who dies tragically every day (tens of thousands?). We can't even mourn every person who dies in a car accident (~100 per day?). The media/public takes an interest in unusual or different cases which have a lot of elements. A popular athlete, product spokesman, comedy actor murders his wife and another person in a fit of rage outside her apartment. An American college girl in Italy is involved in the sordid murder of her roommate. A well-to-do California couple expecting a child has pregnant mother disappear days before her due date and husband turns up with sexy mistress. A comely young mother doesn't report her 2 year old missing for 31 days.

We take particular interest in cases where someone is missing and the public is involved in or following a frantic search for days or weeks. I utterly loathe, hate, and despise that some people find racism in the public's interest in these cases, but I realize that they are capable of finding racism in which underwear I chose this morning, so I typically dismiss them as such.

As for the Casey Anthony case, I think she is guilty, but several things trouble me. The prosecution has tried to imply that this was a murder planned in advance, but there does not seem to have been any planning for what to do with the body once kiddo was dead. Driving around with a body in the trunk for 3-5 days and then tossing her in the woods wrapped in plastic bags and duct tape is not a plan. But if, as the defense suggests, the Grandfather was involved, that means two people were in on the "post mortum" planning, or lack thereof, which is even more implausible. Two brains - and the best they could come up with was 3 days in a trunk, where she could have been discovered at any time?

The only thing that would make the defense allegation that Grandpa was involved in any way plausible is if he had begun molesting Caylee and was afraid an investigation after a drowning would discover it. This, however, does not seem likely in light of the disposal of the body in the woods. Once she was in the woods, there was no control over when she was found. It could have been the very next day, in which case his secret would have been uncovered.

So far, every alternative theory seems to lead to a dead end.

ETA: The attempt to paint the meter reader as somehow involved in the crime is a perfect example of why I loathe lawyers with a passion. No offense to any legal beagles here

 

[quadraginta]

<snip>

As for the Casey Anthony case, I think she is guilty, but several things trouble me. The prosecution has tried to imply that this was a murder planned in advance, but there does not seem to have been any planning for what to do with the body once kiddo was dead. Driving around with a body in the trunk for 3-5 days and then tossing her in the woods wrapped in plastic bags and duct tape is not a plan. But if, as the defense suggests, the Grandfather was involved, that means two people were in on the "post mortum" planning, or lack thereof, which is even more implausible. Two brains - and the best they could come up with was 3 days in a trunk, where she could have been discovered at any time?

The only thing that would make the defense allegation that Grandpa was involved in any way plausible is if he had begun molesting Caylee and was afraid an investigation after a drowning would discover it. This, however, does not seem likely in light of the disposal of the body in the woods. Once she was in the woods, there was no control over when she was found. It could have been the very next day, in which case his secret would have been uncovered.

So far, every alternative theory seems to lead to a dead end.

ETA: The attempt to paint the meter reader as somehow involved in the crime is a perfect example of why I loathe lawyers with a passion. No offense to any legal beagles here

I agree with your analysis, especially the part about Roy Kronk.

As I mentioned upthread, I think the chloroform searches are a red herring. Not in the sense of a deliberate misdirection, but merely one which may have distracted people (investigators perhaps included) simply by having happened, without having any real connection to the murder itself.

I haven't decided if the root cause was an accident followed by panic, or a momentary fit of rage ... followed by panic. If it's the later then it could still be Murder One, because premeditation doesn't necessarily require months of planning. A moment of planning can satisfy that requirement.

I agree that the idea that George was involved is ludicrous. He's an ex-cop. If he had wanted the body to disappear no one would ever have seen it again. This is in Florida, after all, and Orlando is mostly a pile of backfill heaped up in the middle of a swamp. Drive a few miles out of town in any direction with a piece of rope and a cinder block, and the gators will take care of any remains.

Kronk is an overly observant by-stander who is reaping the rewards of many samaritans. "No good deed ...", etc., etc.

 

[Jungle Jim]

This is one aspect of the prosecution case I'm a little surprised by.

I think the whole chloroform thing is a red herring. The total time actually spent on the Google searches was miniscule, as in - only minutes were spent doing it. Nowhere near enough time to do more than skim the topics. This would be in line with someone who knew nothing about chloroform trying to figure out the caption to a joke photo, the one that her ex-boyfriend had on his MySpace page. ("Win her over with chloroform.")

Anthony wasn't the sort of person to try to homebrew chloroform, and if she wanted to drug her kid there were plenty of much simpler alternatives. If she had tried homemade stuff I expect there would be a lot more tracks left than a couple of Google hits. Kitchen fires come to mind.

The connection between that and the "elevated" levels of chloroform detected in the car trunk was a creation of the Grace Creature machine. In her hands the entire car somehow became "drenched" in chloroform.

I don't think it is needful to the prosecution's case, and it may prove to be a distraction. They might be trying to take Baez's eye off the ball, but that seems like a waste of time to me. He's not even looking at the pitcher's mound.

From the Daily Beast article linked to above:

A computer expert from Canada testified how he drilled down into the family computer and found more than 80 searches on a web site that describes "how to make chloroform" months before Caylee died. John Dennis Bradley told the jury he also found searches for "neck breaking" and "internal injuries."

An expert in human decomposition from the spooky-sounding Body Farm in Oak Ridge, Tennessee testified he was "shocked" at the high levels of chloroform he found in an air sample taken from the defendant's car trunk.

 

[Puppycow]

Fist fights breaking out among the spectators. Classy.

Fight among spectators at Casey Anthony Trial

 

[Dumb All Over]

Have they come up with a good hateful moniker for Casey yet? Like Amanda Knox was "Foxy Knoxy."

Nancy Grace has dubbed her "Tot Mom".

 

[Dumb All Over]

I haven't decided if the root cause was an accident followed by panic, or a momentary fit of rage ... followed by panic.

Are these the only two scenarios you are considering? Is there not a third scenario which demontrates extensive planning and aforethought of premeditated murder? The duct tape is the most glaring bit of evidence that points to premeditation. Couple that with the internet searches already mentioned and it is not unreasonable to conclude that Casey Anthony put much planning into this evil, dastardly deed. She would at least have had to plan this to the point where she remembered to go to her father's shed and take a roll of duct tape with her on that fateful day in June of 2008, the last day anyone saw Caylee alive.