are communists necessarily anti-semitic?

bikerdruid said:
btw......a kibbutz is a shining model of communism.
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Well, yes; which is why -- for all the positive things it did -- they were mostly economically non-self-sustaining and depended on government subsidies from the outside, as all communist endevours must, since efficiency and competition are destroyed.

The other possiblity is what happens in all communist countries which aren't small communities with outside support: economic collapse and poverty.

Communism only "works" so long as it gets money and support from elsewhere, or else pauperises the nation it takes over.
 
bigjelmapro said:
Skeptic, the kibbutz model is not based on Communism, but rather Socialism.
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The kibbutz in their original form came closer to communism than any overtly communist nation ever did, guy. Up to and including embracing Marx's insane ideas regarding abolishing the family.
 
Skeptic said:
Well, yes; which is why -- for all the positive things it did -- they were mostly economically non-self-sustaining and depended on government subsidies from the outside, as all communist endevours must, since efficiency and competition are destroyed.

The other possiblity is what happens in all communist countries which aren't small communities with outside support: economic collapse and poverty.

Communism only "works" so long as it gets money and support from elsewhere, or else pauperises the nation it takes over.
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But this is a shining example of a red herring. What you were asked to defend is the idea that communism is somehow inherently anti-semitic. But when asked about kibutzes being a form of communism, instead of addressing the issue of whether those too count as somehow inherently antisemitic, you launch into the above fully irrelevant red herring.

So, were those kibutzes anti-semitic too? Or is it time to admit that, no, one doesn't have to be anti-semitic to like such an utopian idea?
 
Skeptic said:
Well, yes; which is why -- for all the positive things it did -- they were mostly economically non-self-sustaining and depended on government subsidies from the outside, as all communist endevours must, since efficiency and competition are destroyed.

The other possiblity is what happens in all communist countries which aren't small communities with outside support: economic collapse and poverty.

Communism only "works" so long as it gets money and support from elsewhere, or else pauperises the nation it takes over.
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Communism sounds more like capitalism than I thought! :eek:
 
Skeptic said:
Sure there are. But, like Noam Chomsky and Marx, for instance, they are Jews who hate Judaism.
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What, all of the Jews who ever tried communism? In Russia in 1917, the Jews constituted 16 percent of the delegates at the Sixth Party Congress. I can't find some figures for the whole party in that year, but in 1922, some approximately 7.2% of the total members in the communist party were Jews.

Are you telling me that all those were into it for hating Judaism? WTH?

It seems to me like actually there were a lot of very poor Jews in Tsarist Russia, and centuries of rabid anti-semitism had done not much to endear them to the old system. The occasional pogroms done by the anti-communist forces also didn't do much to win the Jews' support. Seems to me like they had plenty of reasons to be willing to try a system that promised to be more egalitarian.

But generally, quoting a couple of prominent examples has a name: guilt by association fallacy.

By the same kind of broken logic, Marx, Engels, Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Trotsky and a few others were men, therefore all communists are men and probably misogynists at that. Or try this: Lenin, Stalin, Milosevic, Ceausescu and a few others were eastern Orthodox, therefore communists are eastern Orthodox. Etc.

It doesn't work that way.
 
Would it be fair to conclude that communists aren't necessarily antisemitic, but many choose to be because they're idiots?
 
Virus said:
Would it be fair to conclude that communists aren't necessarily antisemitic, but many choose to be because they're idiots?
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I'd think it's fair to say that many people are idiots, and chose to blame their problems on Jews because said people are idiots. Well, that and because it beats dealing with reality. And, yes, you'll find that communists are people too, so, yeah, some of them are idiots, and some are the racist/antisemitic/whatever kind of idiot. And die-hard capitalists have some of those idiots too. And, really, everyone. It's not like there's some group that has a shortage of idiots.

As soon as there were more than 150 humans on the planet (Dunbar's number), we've been drawing us-vs-them lines in the sand and blaming the "them" kind for everything that goes wrong. E.g., if you look at some of the most primitive tribes, each time they come home empty handed from hunting, they blame some other tribe for that. And occasionally go murder some for it.

People have been hating each other for as little as a slight differences in their skin colour (see, hate against gypsies or the Irish), or hair colour (see, hate against the "gingers"), or for birth defects (the relatively widespread old time idea that they're somehow marked by the devil/elves/whatever), or even for having a different accent, or, yes, for religion. As long as you have some criterion to define an "us" group and a "them" group, it's the same us-vs-them idiocy all over again.
 
Yeah but some people are categorically idiots. If you're a truther, you're an idiot. If you're a Branch Davidian, you're an idiot. And seriously, anyone that's a Communist this day and age is an idiot.
 
Virus said:
Yeah but some people are categorically idiots. If you're a truther, you're an idiot. If you're a Branch Davidian, you're an idiot. And seriously, anyone that's a Communist this day and age is an idiot.
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Wow. People often have irrational beliefs, or make poor decisions, but still retain an IQ above 60.
 
Mycroft said:
What are the differences between communism and socialism?
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Obvious one would be:

Socialism Vs Communism
Socialism generally refers to an economic system, while communism refers to both an economic and political system.
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Rest can be read here: Kibbutz

Not interested in getting into a nitpicking debate about the differences between the two, as bikerdruid would enjoy (where his only purpose on this forum is to get other people to do the leg-work in any debate whilst he simply adheres to his one-liner rhetoric), simply to prod him about the terms...
 
Virus said:
Yeah but some people are categorically idiots. If you're a truther, you're an idiot. If you're a Branch Davidian, you're an idiot. And seriously, anyone that's a Communist this day and age is an idiot.
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Even if I were to grant that, for the sake of the argument, there is more than one kind of idiot. Even among idiots, not all idiots are antisemitic. Even if by virtue of finding some other category to hate and having too little time and energy to hate them all, if nothing else :p

Since, you know, that was the topic of the thread.
 
Skeptic said:
Well, yes; which is why -- for all the positive things it did -- they were mostly economically non-self-sustaining and depended on government subsidies from the outside, as all communist endevours must, since efficiency and competition are destroyed.

The other possiblity is what happens in all communist countries which aren't small communities with outside support: economic collapse and poverty.

Communism only "works" so long as it gets money and support from elsewhere, or else pauperises the nation it takes over.
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I've read that 6% of the Israeli GNP is attributable to kibbutzim. I couldn't find out what percentage were attributable to moshavim. 6% isn't a huge number, but doesn't it prove that they are paying their way?
 
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