hmmm....all that is left of Communism, is hatred of Jews.
wow. just wow. I thought I'd seen it all.
I was wrong.
General Israel/Palestine discussion thread
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hmmm....all that is left of Communism, is hatred of Jews.
wow. just wow. I thought I'd seen it all.
I was wrong.
How about this one?
Not all critics of Israel hate Jews....but most Jew Haters hate Isreal
Because that is closer to his argument.
But you knew that, didn't you?
Of course most people in this forum realize this. This is why critics of Israel like DC, HoverBoarder, ANTPogo, Darat, and a few others I can name are virtually never called antisemites by anyone here (not counting the occasional nutcase who considers everybody who disagrees with him about anything an antisemite and then gets banned after a couple of weeks.)
There is, however, another group of Israel-haters obsessed with smearing it unfairly and ignorantly, which is almost the very definition of bigotry. They, of course, claim "everybody who criticizes Israel is labeled an antisemite!" -- much like the KKK claims "everybody who criticizes blacks is labeled a racist!" -- but it doesn't make it so.
There is, however, another group of Israel-haters obsessed with smearing it unfairly and ignorantly, which is almost the very definition of bigotry. They, of course, claim "everybody who criticizes Israel is labeled an antisemite!" -- much like the KKK claims "everybody who criticizes blacks is labeled a racist!" -- but it doesn't make it so.
how about this one:
Most Israeli critics are Jew-haters. What, you saying this ain't true? You calling me a liar? Well, I'm a Jew..so that's an anti-Semitic accusation!!!
Yes, and you're almost there. You did miss this rather important one though.
Some people are very angry at all the folks around the world who advocated for the formation of a Jewish state in the middle east. Many of them hate folks around the world who pushed for and demanded that Israel be formed. They attempt wars of anhilation against Israel, blow themsevles up on buses that contain Isrealis, shoot rockets and mortars into Israel, fly planes into buildings in countries that support Isreal, and vow to push Isreal into the sea.
And there are some people that think they are the ones being treated unfairly.
Go figure.
Once again your reading comprehension has failed you miserably.
excuse me??
are you now suggesting that 9-11 was done by Palestinian-sympathizers who targeted the USA as revenge for American support for Israel?
wow, I've only heard Neo-Nazis and Arab/Islamic extremists make such statements. you have interesting company my friend.
Once again, you read but do not comprehend. Was 9/11 commited by people that hate Israel? Yes. Does the U. S. support Israel? Yes. Did I say supporting Israel is why 9/11 was commited? No.
Stop misrepresenting what others are saying or we will be have to crown you the new King of Straw.
you were CLEARLY insinuating a connection between Islamic-extremist hatred of and anger at Israel, America's support of Israel, and 9-11.
you were CLEARLY alluding to Islamic-extremist anger at the USA for our support of Israel, as being part of the motivation for 9-11.
this is a frequent argument made by Neo-Nazis and Jihadists.
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bikerdruid
Philosopher
why did that last exchange get moved the AAH?
i really wanted to know why communists 'had to be jew haters'.
i really wanted to know why communists 'had to be jew haters'.
http://www.haaretz.com/print-editio...-protest-treatment-of-asylum-seekers-1.366681
A U.S.-based Jewish organization that deals with international immigration has announced that it will no longer cooperate with the immigration office in Lod that helps register asylum-seekers in Israel. The organization attributes the move to an Israeli policy instituted in January that allows the summary rejection of asylum requests, which in turn exposes applicants to the risk of immediate detention following rejection.
Good for you, Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society. Thanks for standing up for common decency and justice.
A U.S.-based Jewish organization that deals with international immigration has announced that it will no longer cooperate with the immigration office in Lod that helps register asylum-seekers in Israel. The organization attributes the move to an Israeli policy instituted in January that allows the summary rejection of asylum requests, which in turn exposes applicants to the risk of immediate detention following rejection.
Good for you, Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society. Thanks for standing up for common decency and justice.
http://www.jpost.com/ArtsAndCulture/Entertainment/Article.aspx?id=224171
Congressmen seek to forbid ANY U.S. funds from going to the UN or any other institution that recognizes Palestinian statehood. That includes foreign embassies.
So what, if Spain recognizes Palestine, we will no longer protect their embassy in D.C. and N.Y.???
Congressmen seek to forbid ANY U.S. funds from going to the UN or any other institution that recognizes Palestinian statehood. That includes foreign embassies.
So what, if Spain recognizes Palestine, we will no longer protect their embassy in D.C. and N.Y.???
Yes i did insinuate there is a connection and support of Israel is one of the stated reasons, OBL has said so multiple times and I have no reason to doubt that it played some role. But I did not state 9/11 "was done as revenge for American support for Israel" as you stated - it's part of it, but there are a number of reasons.
Now that we're done picking apart a few words I chose, your silence on the point of my post, however, speaks volumes.
a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
If I meet someone who thinks that, I'll pass your message on.
HoverBoarder
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Well Israel would not be adopting the Palestinian Constitution, they would just be using one modified Article of in order to give the Palestinians an easier way to accept Israel's right to exist as well as Israel as a predominantly Jewish State.
I that there are major problems in requiring the Palestinians to accept Israel as a "Jewish State," because it does bring into question the rights of Israelis who are not Jewish. It is a loaded term, and a lot of people are very uncomfortable with it. There are definitely ways to say the same thing in a way that people would not consider inflammatory. I know that you don't think that right for Arab Israelis and all non-Jewish Israelis is an issue, but there are many Palestinians and non-Jewish Israelis who do feel that way.
Even if it is redundant, even if they are already given rights, it is still something that should be brought up to show Isreal's commitment to it
I am talking about Israeli Arabs, other non-Jewish Israelis, and Palestinians.
But that Israel is supposed to be the state of the Jewish nation is not to say, and never did say, that only Jews have rights there. In fact Israel's declaration of independence states both that Israel is the state of the "Jewish people" and that all citizens "regardless of religion" (as well as regardless of sex, race, skin color, etc.) have equal civil rights.
Take, for instance, England. The Queen is the head of the Anglican church as well as the head of state. Does this mean British Jews should feel excluded or without rights? Does it call into question the rights of non-Anglicans? No.
Now there is something else. The Palestinian demand that Israel is not a Jewish state has little to do with concern for the rights of non-Jews in Israel. It has everything to do with refusing to admit the Jewish people have any right to live in "occupied Palestine", which they consider the entire area from the river to the sea.
Only two weeks ago or so, Abbas, who considers himself so concerned with minority rights, declared that no Jews at all will be allowed in a Palestinian state. So clearly what bothers him isn't minority rights, but simply the right of the Jews for a state under any conditions. That is the truly unacceptable outrage the Palestinians will not accept.
So a better analogy is this. Suppose a radical Muslim group whose official goal (in analogy to the PLO Constitution as well as the Hamas charter) is the expulsion of all non-Muslims from England, declared that it considers it totally unfair the Queen is the head of the Church, as it is considered against the "rights of the Muslim minority".
Would you believe that concern for minorities is something they really care about, or what motivates them is hatred of Christianity?
HoverBoarder
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That is not crazy at all. It is probably the best idea on the table yet, although a few important changes would definitely have to be made.
Thunder also approved of the plan as long as the Israeli settlements did not comprise more than 2-3% of the West Bank (on a side note, I think both of you have a lot more in common than either of you would like to admit. Both of you care a lot about Israel, and both of you know a lot about Israel, and I think that the two of you could come up with some really good ideas to help solve this problem if you were able to put aside your differences...).
I will outline what I see as the main problems with the plan, and then I will suggest how they can be addressed.
Problems:
1) Jordon would not accept it. The main problem as 'Marc39' pointed out, is that the King of Jordan is VERY opposed to taking in the Palestinian refugees, and would not accept this deal (although it seems to be mostly due to the monetary issues).
2) The Palestinians would not accept it. As 'The Fool' pointed out, the Palestinians would not want to give up on their struggle for Nationhood; and this plan would cause them to not only give up on that goal, but it would merge them with a Country that a majority of Palestinians do not identify with.
3) Jerusalem. The Palestinian Constitution states that Jerusalem is their Capital, and a key Palestinian requirement for Peace negotiations is that Jerusalem will be the capital of any future Palestinian State. This is definitely one of the more difficult issues.
Solutions:
1) Palestinians could accept an Independent State that is supported by Jordan for a set period of 30 years. This deal would include Jordan helping to develop the Palestinian infrastructure, a plan for Jordan to help strengthen economic development in the Country, and Jordanian support for internal security. In exchange, Jordan would be given monetary compensation by the International community.
This compensation to Jordan would not only include direct aid, it should also include the building of desalinization plants for Jordan. Jordan is currently buying water from Israel to maintain it's water shortages, and new Forward-Osmosis desalinization technology have shown a lot of promise for being able to produce more efficient and productive plants. By including a deal that would supply water for the West Bank and Jordan, this deal would strenghen the long term National security and economic security of the Jordanian State, and this would go a long way towards convincing King Abdullah that this plan would be in his best interests.
2) By allowing the Palestinians to have their own state that is supported by Jordan, it would give considerable Palestinian support for this plan. As long as the number of Israeli settlements was kept to a low percentage as Thunder mentioned, than this deal would cause a much larger percentage of Palestinians to be supportive and protective of the peace in order to preserve their new State. Thereby creating a powerful new deterrent to radical groups like Hamas.
3) Jerusalem is the hard one. Many Palestinians would never accept the plan if this was not allowed to be their capital, but it could not be their functional capital. As hard as this would be for both sides to accept, Jerusalem would have to be the Capital of a future Palestinian State in name only, with Ramallah serving as the functional capital. This would allow the Israelis to maintain control over Jerusalem, but would allow the Palestinians to accept the deal.
While this deal would be hard for both sides, it is something that could work, and as we are barreling closer to September with the Palestinians unilaterally declaring their own State, the consequences of not finding a solution are much worse.
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