Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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In the hearing before Judge Matteini, on November 8th, 2007, Raffaele admitted that he told the cops this "BS" story, the story of Amanda leaving him to go to Le Chic. The Matteini Report, summarizing that testimony of Raffaele (and published on November 9th, 2007) was accepted as part of the case file by Judge Massei. Raffaele's "BS" story didn't survive more than a few minutes---or a few hours---while he was interrogated by the cops on the night of November 5th....as demonstrated by Raffaele's Diary and the Matteini Report.

The "BS" story may have emerged from Raffaele misunderstanding Amanda's review of the situation as the lovebirds approached the Police Station the night of November 5th. Amanda, then stoned like Raffaele, speaking a unique variation on Italian..... imaginary verbs, americanized nouns, dangling, mispronounced infinitives galore. And Raffaele, while reviewing the situation, not recalling properly just which date the Americans celebrate Halloween.

Once at the Police Station, while he was being interrogated by Napoleoni and Ficarra, did the two cops begin to bicker between themselves on the exact date Americans celebrate Halloween? "She went to Le Chic to meet some friends." (Umm, which friends?) Just the sort of story---an instantly falsifiable story--- that Amanda would want the police to believe to explain her whereabouts the night of the murder. So would Amanda persuade Raffaele to say that? Or did Napoleoni and Ficarra "remind" Raffaele that the American Halloween is on November 1st?

///


Thanks Fine. I was aware that Sollecito had spoken before Judge Matteini at his appearance in court on November 8th. I'm just not aware that it has ever been established that Sollecito claimed that Knox left his apartment between 9pm and 1am on the evening/night of November 1st/2nd. And I'm still not aware that this fact has ever been established.

As I've said before, if Sollecito did indeed say such a thing, and if it was admissible as evidence, then it would be a major pointer towards Knox's guilt (and a possible pointer to Sollecito's guilt too). I feel totally certain that Mignini would have used it as significant evidence in front of Massei's court, and I also feel totally certain that Massei would have addressed it in his sentencing report. But it's noticeable by its absence......

Incidentally, I just came across this Telegraph report of the proceedings in Matteini's court on November 8th 2007:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1568864/Meredith-killed-during-extreme-sex-game.html

Note the following passages:

The judge (Matteini) said Knox had previously agreed to help Lumumba "have an encounter with Meredith".

"There was the initial desire of the three youths to try some new sensation. Above all for the boyfriend and girlfriend, while Lumumba had the desire to join carnally with a girl that he fancied and who refused him," she (Matteini) added.

The three suspects then tried to simulate a theft, wrecking the inside of the house and spraying the floor and sink in the bathroom with blood, according to the judge.

Police have accused Knox of helping to hold Miss Kercher down during the sexual assault claiming that her finger prints had been found on the British student’s face.

Lumumba said he had been in his bar, Le Chic, but the judge said that a regular passed it at 7pm to find it closed.

Meanwhile, Giuliano Mignini, the chief public prosecutor, confirmed that there may be a fourth person connected to the crime, after finding an unknown fingerprint in blood on a cushion.


Some of these are pretty well known as exaggerations or lies on behalf of the police and prosecutors. But there are a few amongst them that I was not aware of:

1) Did the police really claim to have found Knox's fingerprints on Meredith's face?

2) Who was this "regular" who the police managed to find within 2 days of Lumumba's arrest, who was prepared to testify incorrectly that Le Chic was closed?

3) Is this "unknown fingerprint in blood on a cushion" actually Guede's hand print on the pillow? And, if so, it's interesting that Mignini's instinct was that there was a fourth person involved.
 
May I preface with a disclaimer.

Your ability to walk that fine line between insulting and just arguing is IMHO superior to most arguers here.
Your past arguments to opponents almost always include at least one, and often several sentences in the 'argument' that have been seen by many, and often actually cited by recipients as insults.
Yet as a testament to your fine line ambulatory abilities, most of these remain unmolested by Administration.
Therefore, I yield to your demonstrated 'skills' in this area of 'parsing' just what constitutes an 'insult'.

However, having said that, your categorizing part of my previous argument to you as an insult requires a specific suspension of disbelief as well as acquiescence allowing you to 'have it both ways'.

This since you yourself have boasted on more than a single past occasion as self aggrandizing support for credibility, that your ability to type words into Google and You Tube, and your possession of a Library Card made your layman's arguments about TOD and other areas superior to degreed and professionally accredited and long experienced ILE Officials.

Superior arguments to these professional individuals who have the highest academic degrees available in applicable areas as well as professional accreditation and decades of combined experience in these areas that they 'argue'.
This superiority of your arguments, you proudly postulated, again, is based on your "Googled/Library Card/You Tube based observations"

Are you suggesting now that you per chance slipped off the 'fine line' and in the past have 'insulted' yourself by boasting about the very same activities that you now say I employ as "unsubstantiated insults" in my argument. ??

Did you say those poor judges and police in Perugia don't have access to google? Oh, that's right the Italian Court System is trying to destroy it!

Pilot, have the bunnies and kittens passed a law against 'learning' now? Will they be burning books from now on, instead of cuties in effigy? :p

I have access to eight million books and other library materials, more actually come to think of it with all the rest of the libraries, with transfer programs I might be able to lay hands on an original printing of "Napoléon le Petit."

Why bother, they have it right here!

Now that's how you say "You suck, I'm right, deal with it!"

That's one historic 'flame.' :)

will you be adding that to your list Platonov?
 
Not exactly. She made an addled statement about being at the crime scene listening to Patrick (her boss) attack the victim. Raf the boyfriend was not mentioned as being present.

If you look into the details of how this statement came about, you may find (like I have) that it most probably is a false confession. At least it makes more sense as a false confession, than it does as a deliberate lie.


Oh, sure, I agree with you. I was merely carrying on the conversation, agreeing that "saying something happened that didn't happen" could be described as a lie for the purposes of the discussion.

Rolfe.
 
I know I've posted this link before (a while ago now), but I think it's worth posting again. This is what the European Criminal Bar Association (who, I'd imagine, know what they're talking about) think about how Italian police/prosecutors often deliberately "mis-classify" suspects as witnesses, for obvious reasons:

http://www.ecba-eaw.org/cms/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=981&Itemid=31


The suspect has a right to immediate legal assistance. If the police, however, do not want the suspect to be assisted, they simply do not allow him to call his lawyer or they question him as a witness, since witnesses do not have the right to have legal assistance during questioning.


Does this sound at all familiar to anyone....?
 
I'm not quite sure how this logic works, actually. If she definitely killed someone because a court verdict said she did, but then a higher court reverses that decision and says she didn't - did she not kill, after all?

Do court judgements retrospectively re-create reality?

If the appeal is successful, will the action against the parents be abandoned, or will they continue with it? Does anyone know?

Rolfe.
 
Commence evasive manoeuvres

Thanks Fine. I was aware that Sollecito had spoken before Judge Matteini at his appearance in court on November 8th. I'm just not aware that it has ever been established that Sollecito claimed that Knox left his apartment between 9pm and 1am on the evening/night of November 1st/2nd. And I'm still not aware that this fact has ever been established.
<snip>


It has been, repeatedly - whether to your satisfaction or not, confusion over other issues notwithstanding.

Perhaps you have forgotten or somehow an 'Injected False Memory' of the (fatuous) version of what he said has replaced the original - waterboarding / stress / smoking weed / facing tough Q's (from cops) etc etc can cause this sometimes we are told.

Best to drop this issue and concentrate on early media reports perhaps ;)

After all there were no ramifications - its all irrelevant :)
 
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Do I take it that those still ridiculing the notion that Amanda might actually be innocent have just decided to ignore the evidence for Meredith's death having occurred at about nine o'clock?

Rolfe.
 
time served

Rolfe,

I do not know anyone who knows with certainty. However, there is speculation that if Ms. Knox is cleared of the murder case, the satellite cases may be abandoned. I have a slightly different view of what will happen if she is found not guilty of murder. I think that they may find her guilty of calunnia to save face, and the penalty will be time served. I also think that the charge against her parents will be quietly dropped. I am not defending the logic of this position, because I don't expect logic any longer when examining criminal justice systems of any nation.
 
I think we need to get the last word from Rolfe on what he meant when he wrote, "Amanda's lying to the police makes me think, bizarre behaviour, what was she smoking? - oh, wait...." I thought he was being ironic, because Amanda did not actually lie.

Mary, as a friend, I feel embarrassed for you saying that "Amanda did not lie".
Amanda did indeed lie, and more than once.
You may argue she is not guilty (and often do very admirably), but please do not attempt to argue "she did not lie"

May I start by quoting her own lawyer who throughout the trial was very protective of his client and her oft cited 'quirkiness'.
He was forced to concede the following:
" Luciano Ghirga, told reporters Friday [09 November 2007]"... that his client had given "three versions and ... it is difficult to evaluate which one is true."
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2004005696_italy10m.html

Spare us any attempts to even waste cyberspace spinning this straightforward affirmation that his own client, Knox, did actually lie here when (2) of her 'versions' were simply *in his own direct words*.... 'untrue'.

Although the above is adequate refutation of your statement,
for the record, some time ago another observer listed several other instances of 'lies' from Knox.

As a preface, some of these additional examples of 'lies' have been the subject of very vigorous and varied attempts here to justify, interpret, spin,and/or explain.
I remain unconvinced.
Regurgitation of those unconvincing attempts will do little other than add to the 50,000, and I will not again revisit them.

1) Lie one. Amanda said she was going to call Raffaele, but according to Raffaele, Amanda had already returned to his apartment at 11.30 am, and then they had gone back to the cottage.

At 12.34 pm Amanda and Filomena spoke again. Filomena said, “We spoke to each other for the third time and she told me that the window in my room was broken and that my room was in a mess. At this point I asked her to call the police and she told me that she already had.”

2) Lie two. Amanda and Raffaele didn’t actually call the police until 12.51 pm.
The postal postal police unexpectedly turned up at the cottage at 12. 35 pm.

3) Lie three. Amanda and Raffael told the police that they had called the police and were waiting for them.

4) Lie four. Amanda told the postal police that Meredith always kept her door locked. Filomena strongly disagreed with her, and told the postal police the opposite was true.
Amanda and Raffaele were then taken in for questioning.

5) Lie five. They said they couldn’t remember most of what happened on the night of the murder, because they had smoked cannabis.
It is medically impossible for cannabis to cause such dramatic amnesia and there are no studies that have ever demonstrated that this is possible.
Long term use of cannabis may affect short term memory, which means that users might have difficulty recalling a telephone number. But it won’t wipe out whole chunks of an evening from their memory banks.

6) Lie six. Amanda accused Diya Lumumba of murdering Meredith at the cottage.
It’s true that two of Amanda’s such statements were thrown out by the Italian Supreme Court. However, Amanda repeated the accusation, in a note that she wrote to the police on 6 November.
This note was not thrown out by the Italian Supreme Court, and it was admitted as evidence.

7/8) Lies seven and eight. In her 6 November note Amanda claimed to have seen Diya Lumumba at the basketball court at Piazza Grimana; and outside her front door. He was actually at his bar.

9) Line nine. Amanda’s supporters claim that she confessed to a lesser role in Meredith’s murder, and blamed Diya Lumumba, because she had been “smacked around” or put under pressure by the police.
But the real reason she had to say she was at the cottage was because she was informed that Raffaele Sollecito was no longer providing her with an alibi.
Raffaele had been confronted with phone records, and was now claiming that she was not with him the whole evening, and that she had only returned at 1.00 am. Amanda did not attempt to refute Raffaele’s claim, but now admitted that she had been at the cottage.
The significance of this about-turn cannot be stressed enough.

(Incidentally, Raffaele was also claiming that he had lied, because he had believed Amanda’s version of what happened and not thought about the inconsistencies. He is acknowledging that Amanda’s version had inconsistencies.)

If it had been true that Amanda had been “smacked around” by the police during questioning, why haven’t her lawyers ever filed a complaint? It was very telling that Amanda dropped her allegation of being hit by the police at her recent court hearing, and instead just claimed she had been put under pressure.

There’s a world of difference between police brutality and being put under pressure. It wasn’t the first time that Amanda has made a false and malicious accusation, as Diya Lumumba knows only too well.

10) Lie ten. Amanda claimed to have slept in at Raffaele’s until the next morning. However, her mobile records show that this was not so. Amanda turned on her mobile at approximately at 5.32 am.

The only plausable explanation for Amanda’s deliberate and repeated lies? That she was involved in the murder of Meredith Kercher.

It should be no surprise to anyone following the case that the same three witnesses who have repeatedly lied, Amanda Knox, Raffaele Sollecito and Rudy Guede, have all been placed at the crime scene.
 
Did you say those poor judges and police in Perugia don't have access to google? Oh, that's right the Italian Court System is trying to destroy it!

Pilot, have the bunnies and kittens passed a law against 'learning' now? Will they be burning books from now on, instead of cuties in effigy? :p

I have access to eight million books and other library materials, more actually come to think of it with all the rest of the libraries, with transfer programs I might be able to lay hands on an original printing of "Napoléon le Petit."

Why bother, they have it right here!

Now that's how you say "You suck, I'm right, deal with it!"

That's one historic 'flame.' :)

will you be adding that to your list Platonov?


I note with interest that good old Pilot still prefers to focus on the commentators rather than the case. And that he still chooses to avoid giving answers to questions that I suspect he might find somewhat awkward to answer logically.

Regarding all this "fat cabbage" about using Google etc., Pilot seems to severely undervalue the efficacy of good, well-reasoned research. I gave the example a while ago of being posed the question of the mass of the planet Jupiter. If you were to ask this question of an astrophysicist (or planetary geologist) who specialised in Jupiter, they could probably tell you the answer confidently and authoritatively off the top of their heads. But for those of us who are not experts in this field, we can find the very same answer known to the experts by conducting intelligent research. We can go to authoritative sources, and cross-check the information to be highly confident that it is correct. In the case of Jupiter's mass, research on the NASA website, coupled with corroboration on the websites of the astrophysics departments of two Ivy Leaue US universities, gives the correct answer (1.8986×1027 kg).

The same intelligent research techniques can - extraordinary as it may seem - give a person with a reasonable scientific mind the same knowledge of the transit timings of food from the stomach to the duodenum as practically every specialist on the face of the earth. The only times this would not be the case would be either if certain facts are in significant dispute within the academic/scientific community (i.e. there's actually no "right answer"), or if there is brand new research that has not yet been published or publicised in any way.

Otherwise, you or I can find out virtually every scientific, medical, legal, historical or arts/literature fact. If necessary, I could find the birth date of the poet Shelley within about 5 seconds, and I could find the average length (and variance) of the adult male giraffe femur within about a minute. And I would be just as accurate in my facts as a professor of English Romantic poetry or a research biologist working on giraffe anatomy. Isn't that amazing!
 
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not enough time

Do I take it that those still ridiculing the notion that Amanda might actually be innocent have just decided to ignore the evidence for Meredith's death having occurred at about nine o'clock?

Rolfe.
Rolfe,

First, thank you for looking at this issue, which I think is a central one and in which you have more expertise than most of us. Second, I can't speak for the pro-guilt people, but as far as the pro-innocence people go, I can say that several of us have wondered how Amanda could behave normally at 8:40 when Ms. Popovic dropped by and then became so messed up that she and Raffaele could commit murder a few minutes later. IMO, that dog won't hunt, even ignoring any computer activity past 9 PM.
 
It has been, repeatedly - whether to your satisfaction or not, confusion over other issues notwithstanding.

Perhaps you have forgotten or somehow an 'Injected False Memory' of the (fatuous) version of what he said has replaced the original - waterboarding / stress / smoking weed / facing tough Q's (from cops) etc etc can cause this sometimes we are told.

Best to drop this issue and concentrate on early media reports perhaps ;)

After all there were no ramifications - its all irrelevant :)


Well, point me to a link where it is stated as fact, and that'll be fine. That's all I'm asking for.

Of course, once you've done that, you'll need to explain why it seemingly never cropped up in the criminal trial of Knox and Sollecito before Judge Massei. Because (as I pointed out before) if it were true and admissible it would be a pretty huge piece of evidence against Knox. So why didn't Mignini apparently introduce it in the trial? That's all I'm asking.
 
Amamda said she was in the kitchen covering her ears while Patrick and Raffaelo murdered Meredith, or so I gathered from the posts here.

I presume you're not suggesting that's actually true....

Yes, I appreciate all that stuff about confabulation under stress and so on, just colour me a little bit sceptical that it's quite that easy in someone in full control of their faculties and memories.

Rolfe.

She wasn't, she was a traumatized mess, even more so after hours in the backroom with ILE. The statements and note, all testify to her mental state in the hands of ILE. She was an honor student at a top state university, had no history of mental illness, and if they could have found a psychologist/psychiatrist to declare her mentally ill they sure would have, instead they relied on a wildly hyperbolic smear from the Daily Mail as to her mens rea. Since then she's been a model prisoner, in fact two or three books have been written about what a nice person she is by people who regularly visited her in prison or were inmates with her who didn't know her before.

So, while she might have been a little offbeat, whimsical perhaps, she was well-liked and intelligent before and after her ordeal at the hands of the police in Perugia.

Isn't that interesting?
 
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Far be it from a 'man of the earth' such as myself to discern how you 'take it'.

Do I take it that those still ridiculing the notion that Amanda might actually be innocent have just decided to ignore the evidence for Meredith's death having occurred at about nine o'clock?
Rolfe.


Your views on several parts of the case have impressed me.
However, your above puzzlement about the TOD evidence *from here*, leaves me underwhelmed.

As noted above I was also impressed that a very highly regarded Defense team after over 3 full years of Discovery and over a year of actual Court Hearings plus the opportunity to bring the oft heralded here Googled TOD evidence as part of their stated reasons for Appeal... not only "decided to ignore", but pointedly failed to attribute to it even a peep of recognition much less any credibility.

Per chance you would be better served expressing your 'take' to them

BTW
Personally, I deem unsolicited spelling lessons for opponents only, as much more akin to the "ridicule" you mention than the few respectful disagreements with the prevalent theme of innocence expressed here
 
Mary, why would Perugian police be biased and prejudiced against a couple of white college kids?


I'm afraid you'll have to ask the police for the answer to that question. All I can say is that every single day in reading posts about this case, I see people expressing resentment against the two defendants for aspects of their lives that are beyond the defendants' control, such as their looks, their ages, who their parents are, and so on. That kind of resentment isn't rational. I have assumed that the cops' irrational attitudes toward the defendants stemmed from some similar sources.
 
It's based on what I posted, and if you think I'm getting into a debate with you on what law enforcement refers to as luminol you're mistaken, ends here and now. Call victory if it makes you feel better but I'm not playing your silly game.

I think we're once again touching on a core problem here. Guilters, by and large, are guilters because they don't understand logic or science.

It is not a "silly game" to ask what the evidence is for a claim. It is absolutely necessary to any rational discussion to ask, when necessary, what the evidence is for a claim. If you have no evidence for a claim, you should not be making that claim in the first place.

If you want to see a "silly game", I'd suggest the Danceme Three-Step we've just seen as a very silly game indeed. Here's how it goes:

1. Make something up.
2. Demand that others disprove it.
3. When you get called on this elementary logical error, call elementary logic a "silly game".

Thanks for taking up the torch odeed.

We know that's correct but I think you'll drive yourself mad if you take on the tag team of KL and LJ, not worth it.

You "know that's correct" but you cannot produce even the slightest trace of evidence for it? How does that work?

I take it for granted that a rational human being believes only those things that they have evidence for.

(As I recall last time we had this discussion we had guilters responding with "But you don't have evidence for everything you believe, do you Mister Smartypants? How do you explain the colour pink?!". As I said earlier, a core problem seems to be simple scientific illiteracy).

Yes, I hear it every night when I watch CSI or Criminal Minds, "alright fellas, spray that luminol chemiluminescence test, and let's see what we have"

Well why didn't you just come right out and say "I'm basing this off television?". Wouldn't that have saved us all some time and some electrons?
 
Mary, as a friend, I feel embarrassed for you saying that "Amanda did not lie".
Amanda did indeed lie, and more than once.
You may argue she is not guilty (and often do very admirably), but please do not attempt to argue "she did not lie"

May I start by quoting her own lawyer who throughout the trial was very protective of his client and her oft cited 'quirkiness'.
He was forced to concede the following:
" Luciano Ghirga, told reporters Friday [09 November 2007]"... that his client had given "three versions and ... it is difficult to evaluate which one is true."
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2004005696_italy10m.html

Spare us any attempts to even waste cyberspace spinning this straightforward affirmation that his own client, Knox, did actually lie here when (2) of her 'versions' were simply *in his own direct words*.... 'untrue'.

Although the above is adequate refutation of your statement,
for the record, some time ago another observer listed several other instances of 'lies' from Knox.

As a preface, some of these additional examples of 'lies' have been the subject of very vigorous and varied attempts here to justify, interpret, spin,and/or explain.
I remain unconvinced.
Regurgitation of those unconvincing attempts will do little other than add to the 50,000, and I will not again revisit them.

1) Lie one. Amanda said she was going to call Raffaele, but according to Raffaele, Amanda had already returned to his apartment at 11.30 am, and then they had gone back to the cottage.

At 12.34 pm Amanda and Filomena spoke again. Filomena said, “We spoke to each other for the third time and she told me that the window in my room was broken and that my room was in a mess. At this point I asked her to call the police and she told me that she already had.”

2) Lie two. Amanda and Raffaele didn’t actually call the police until 12.51 pm.
The postal postal police unexpectedly turned up at the cottage at 12. 35 pm.

3) Lie three. Amanda and Raffael told the police that they had called the police and were waiting for them.

4) Lie four. Amanda told the postal police that Meredith always kept her door locked. Filomena strongly disagreed with her, and told the postal police the opposite was true.
Amanda and Raffaele were then taken in for questioning.

5) Lie five. They said they couldn’t remember most of what happened on the night of the murder, because they had smoked cannabis.
It is medically impossible for cannabis to cause such dramatic amnesia and there are no studies that have ever demonstrated that this is possible.
Long term use of cannabis may affect short term memory, which means that users might have difficulty recalling a telephone number. But it won’t wipe out whole chunks of an evening from their memory banks.

6) Lie six. Amanda accused Diya Lumumba of murdering Meredith at the cottage.
It’s true that two of Amanda’s such statements were thrown out by the Italian Supreme Court. However, Amanda repeated the accusation, in a note that she wrote to the police on 6 November.
This note was not thrown out by the Italian Supreme Court, and it was admitted as evidence.

7/8) Lies seven and eight. In her 6 November note Amanda claimed to have seen Diya Lumumba at the basketball court at Piazza Grimana; and outside her front door. He was actually at his bar.

9) Line nine. Amanda’s supporters claim that she confessed to a lesser role in Meredith’s murder, and blamed Diya Lumumba, because she had been “smacked around” or put under pressure by the police.
But the real reason she had to say she was at the cottage was because she was informed that Raffaele Sollecito was no longer providing her with an alibi.
Raffaele had been confronted with phone records, and was now claiming that she was not with him the whole evening, and that she had only returned at 1.00 am. Amanda did not attempt to refute Raffaele’s claim, but now admitted that she had been at the cottage.
The significance of this about-turn cannot be stressed enough.

(Incidentally, Raffaele was also claiming that he had lied, because he had believed Amanda’s version of what happened and not thought about the inconsistencies. He is acknowledging that Amanda’s version had inconsistencies.)

If it had been true that Amanda had been “smacked around” by the police during questioning, why haven’t her lawyers ever filed a complaint? It was very telling that Amanda dropped her allegation of being hit by the police at her recent court hearing, and instead just claimed she had been put under pressure.

There’s a world of difference between police brutality and being put under pressure. It wasn’t the first time that Amanda has made a false and malicious accusation, as Diya Lumumba knows only too well.

10) Lie ten. Amanda claimed to have slept in at Raffaele’s until the next morning. However, her mobile records show that this was not so. Amanda turned on her mobile at approximately at 5.32 am.

The only plausable explanation for Amanda’s deliberate and repeated lies? That she was involved in the murder of Meredith Kercher.

It should be no surprise to anyone following the case that the same three witnesses who have repeatedly lied, Amanda Knox, Raffaele Sollecito and Rudy Guede, have all been placed at the crime scene.


Wow - an impressive list of "lies"!!

You must have been researching all of this like some sort of Machine....
 
The only part of this case I have a really firm view on is the time of death. And before anyone starts accusing me of having a library card or googling stuff, I might mention that I spent part of this morning in conference with the procurator fiscal on the subject of my expert evidence regarding time of death and sequence of events of a killing, and exactly where the hole was in the prosecution evidence that might lead her to reconsider the wisdom of the prosecution.

Now I admit the "murder" victim was a fallow deer, and that stomach contents had nothing to so with it (there was no stomach by the time I got involved). Nevertheless, there are certain principles in forensic pathology that are reasonably universal, and can be followed by anyone with cross-species experience.

And I'm still waiting for someone to show me the evidence that makes me feel there's any reason to doubt that Meredith died at about nine o'clock.

And sorry, "the defence don't seem to be making a big deal of it" isn't an argument. You want to know about incompetent defence lawyers? I could write a book.

Rolfe.
 
Thanks Fine. I was aware that Sollecito had spoken before Judge Matteini at his appearance in court on November 8th. I'm just not aware that it has ever been established that Sollecito claimed that Knox left his apartment between 9pm and 1am on the evening/night of November 1st/2nd. And I'm still not aware that this fact has ever been established.

As I've said before, if Sollecito did indeed say such a thing, and if it was admissible as evidence, then it would be a major pointer towards Knox's guilt (and a possible pointer to Sollecito's guilt too). I feel totally certain that Mignini would have used it as significant evidence in front of Massei's court, and I also feel totally certain that Massei would have addressed it in his sentencing report. But it's noticeable by its absence......<snip>


No, it has never been definitively established that Raffaele said that, in my opinion. The Telegraph reported that the police reported that Raffaele had agreed with the police's suggestions. We have nothing other than that in writing. This would be an ideal time to have those interrogation tapes.

Claudia Matteini's report also states that Raffaele's most recent stance as of her writing (11/9/7)was that Amanda spent the night at his place.
 
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Your views on several parts of the case have impressed me.
However, your above puzzlement about the TOD evidence *from here*, leaves me underwhelmed.

As noted above I was also impressed that a very highly regarded Defense team after over 3 full years of Discovery and over a year of actual Court Hearings plus the opportunity to bring the oft heralded here Googled TOD evidence as part of their stated reasons for Appeal... not only "decided to ignore", but pointedly failed to attribute to it even a peep of recognition much less any credibility.

Per chance you would be better served expressing your 'take' to them

As pointed out yesterday the defense in the first trial went so far as to file a motion for an independent expert to review the evidence to narrow the TOD. This motion was denied.

It is certainly not ignored in the appeal and I have quoted sections on this on numerous occasions. The defense is perfectly aware of the problems with the later TOD as presented by the prosecution.
 
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