Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Chris_Halkides]

Silence is golden. It is also smart.

Sabrina Misseri and her mother Cosima Serrano chose to remain silent. Does that mean that they are guilty?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

probably everything else would have to be done in the lab

Thank you, crystals are much cooler than fuzz, that's reminiscent of what you get when you don't eat your fruit fast enough. I like your example, the way it kinda complements in a sense, not Manichean, and there's those little lost dots in the middle of the other side.
Kasosium.

If Stefanoni was on site, which of these could be done there for certain? Keeping in mind her strict adherence to scientific and forensic protocols displayed throughout the case?

I am not 100% certain, but I strongly suspect the answer is nothing on site. One of the two crystal tests is very sensitive to overheating, and Ouchterlony analysis takes some time. There are other immunochemical tests (one is based on antibodies against the enzyme lactate dehydrogenase), but I hesitate to say that they could be done in the field.

 

[Kaosium]

Perhaps ? but how would that explain London John & Kevin Lowe repeating this (most fatuous of arguments) in the last 2/3 days

Have you ever tried to decipher the Michaeli report? I did it back around page 320 of the last thread, I'm sure there were people laughing at me, too. Perhaps the same ones who decided to leave something ambiguous (might have been fixed since) as it was so entertaining watching groupies go in circles about that one part of Raffaele's diary...

 

[platonov]

I must be very slow - I don't really understand anything you are arguing here.
Let's take things one by one. Firstly, could you point me towards the evidence that Sollecito said Knox left his apartment between 9pm and 1am on the night of the 1st/2nd November 2007? Anything will do: transcripts of police interviews, tapped phone calls, testimony documented in the Massei Report, media reports of the trial, anything....

Really

In which case, as before, this confusion * is not amenable to a text based solution.

The whole issue is 'Utterly Irrelevant' anyway.

*which might explain the failure of all the previous postings to clarify the matter for you.

So that would be a No.

 

[Mary_H]

I'd really like to know what this post, and the one you responded to, has to do with the subject of this thread.

Almost all of the questions that are discussed at length in this thread result from differences in interpretations of the facts. If it were not for the differences, the thread would probably not exist; at least, it would not have an aspect of debate, and it would not have existed for this length of time.

It is well known that there are primary schools of thought that represent the differences in interpretations. These schools of thought are inherent to the controversial aspect of the case, and hence to the ongoing discussion of the subject examined by this thread.

 

[Fine]

"American" Halloween?

Are you sure that this claim of Sollecito's that Knox was not in his apartment between 9pm and 1am wasn't an erroneous reference to the night before, when Knox went to a Halloween party without Sollecito?
Can you also point me towards the point in the first trial where testimony was introduced that had Sollecito placing Knox outside his apartment between 9pm and 1am on the night of 1st/2nd November? Because I'm having an awful lot of trouble finding any reference to it - either in press reports of the trial or in the Massei Report. I would have thought that this would be a very damning piece of evidence against Knox if it was true and admissible. Of course, if it either wasn't true or wasn't admissible, then it is utterly irrelevant.

______________________

In the hearing before Judge Matteini, on November 8th, 2007, Raffaele admitted that he told the cops this "BS" story, the story of Amanda leaving him to go to Le Chic. The Matteini Report, summarizing that testimony of Raffaele (and published on November 9th, 2007) was accepted as part of the case file by Judge Massei. Raffaele's "BS" story didn't survive more than a few minutes---or a few hours---while he was interrogated by the cops on the night of November 5th....as demonstrated by Raffaele's Diary and the Matteini Report.

The "BS" story may have emerged from Raffaele misunderstanding Amanda's review of the situation as the lovebirds approached the Police Station the night of November 5th. Amanda, then stoned like Raffaele, speaking a unique variation on Italian..... imaginary verbs, americanized nouns, dangling, mispronounced infinitives galore. And Raffaele, while reviewing the situation, not recalling properly just which date the Americans celebrate Halloween.

Once at the Police Station, while he was being interrogated by Napoleoni and Ficarra, did the two cops begin to bicker between themselves on the exact date Americans celebrate Halloween? "She went to Le Chic to meet some friends." (Umm, which friends?) Just the sort of story---an instantly falsifiable story--- that Amanda would want the police to believe to explain her whereabouts the night of the murder. So would Amanda persuade Raffaele to say that? Or did Napoleoni and Ficarra "remind" Raffaele that the American Halloween is on November 1st?

///

 

[Rolfe]

Americans celebrate All Hallows' Eve on All Saints' Day?

You jest, surely.

Rolfe.

 

[Fine]

Americans celebrate All Hallows' Eve on All Saints' Day?

You jest, surely.

Rolfe.

_____________________

Raffaele was not provided an English translator during his interrogation. That was Amanda.

///

 

[Mary_H]

So - the story is.

On the 2nd AK & RS found at crime scene with body locked in bedroom.

On the night of the 5th RS 'admits' his earlier alibi story [which he says was AK's idea ] was 'a load of BS' and now claims that AK was out between 9pm and 1 am* on the night of the murder but he was at (his) home.

This leads the cops to strongly query AK's alibi/story - calling her a liar/waterboarding her (delete as appropriate) - which leads to her accusing PL.
An accusation repeated twice more - once embellished, once hedged (in the unsolicited handwritten gift).
An accusation then not withdrawn in a further unsolicited prison 'memo' of the 7th or an appearance before a Judge on the 8th (she invoked her right to silence).
An accusation that, when she is pressed for an explanation of it by a PM (magistrate) on Dec 17 leads to her becoming 'confused' / 'stoned' again and she/her lawyer promptly terminates the interview.

And the explanation is - 'What was he/she smoking'

I suspect the other suspect RG (the black guy) would not get such an easy ride under the circumstances, his involvement in a murder not being such an extraordinary event.
The '9.00 watershed' which doesn't vary regardless of meal start time or any other 'details' is easier to understand in light of this.

You will forgive me if I give this one a miss


* Note - not that he wasn't sure if she went out after he fell asleep as London John and others have claimed ~ 46 times despite being corrected several times.

It's possible there is some truth to your implication that Rudy Guede might have received rough treatment by the police, had he been caught early and taken to the Questura as Amanda and Raffaele were. As it stands, though, the only evidence we have of what might have happened to him is what we know about what happened to Amanda and Raffaele, along with a slightly cynical suggestion that Rudy would have been treated worse because he's black.

To veer off the subject slightly, this is an ideal opportunity to remind ourselves that there is no evidence that Rudy spent any time alone with the Perugian cops at all. His "interrogation" consisted of a Skype conversation with a friend, followed by detainment in Germany and transfer back to Perugia, some weeks after the crime, during which time he had ample opportunity to mentally review his many changing explanations for what happened the night of November 1st. There is no doubt he was then eagerly greeted in Perugia by his lawyers, who, allied with the prosecutor, sought to use Rudy as a way to further the prosecutor's case against Amanda and Raffaele.

Things would have turned out very differently for Amanda and Raffaele had they been provided with the same advantages as Rudy -- no interrogations, and plenty of time with attorneys before dealing with the police.

 

[PhantomWolf]

If she was partial to turning cartwheels in police stations (a perfectly normal behavior, we are told), then there's no reason to think she wasn't also turning cartwheels during the interrogation.

And she probably fell on her head because she was talking on the phone while doing those cartwheels right TCS?

Of course what she was doing has nothing to do with the OP or the Thread, though her screaming while in the interrogation does, if you believe the police. Or do you think the police are liars?

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

And she probably fell on her head because she was talking on the phone while doing those cartwheels right TCS?

Of course what she was doing has nothing to do with the OP or the Thread, though her screaming while in the interrogation does, if you believe the police. Or do you think the police are liars?

Actually what convicted murderer Amanda Knox was doing anywhere at anytime (other than killing people) has nothing to do with the OP or the thread. It's all about her idiot parents. Let's get back to them.

 

[Katody Matrass]

______________________

In the hearing before Judge Matteini, on November 8th, 2007, Raffaele admitted that he told the cops this "BS" story, the story of Amanda leaving him to go to Le Chic. The Matteini Report, summarizing that testimony of Raffaele (and published on November 9th, 2007) was accepted as part of the case file by Judge Massei. Raffaele's "BS" story didn't survive more than a few minutes---or a few hours---while he was interrogated by the cops on the night of November 5th....as demonstrated by Raffaele's Diary and the Matteini Report.

The "BS" story may have emerged from Raffaele misunderstanding Amanda's review of the situation as the lovebirds approached the Police Station the night of November 5th. Amanda, then stoned like Raffaele, speaking a unique variation on Italian..... imaginary verbs, americanized nouns, dangling, mispronounced infinitives galore. And Raffaele, while reviewing the situation, not recalling properly just which date the Americans celebrate Halloween.

Once at the Police Station, while he was being interrogated by Napoleoni and Ficarra, did the two cops begin to bicker between themselves on the exact date Americans celebrate Halloween? "She went to Le Chic to meet some friends." (Umm, which friends?) Just the sort of story---an instantly falsifiable story--- that Amanda would want the police to believe to explain her whereabouts the night of the murder. So would Amanda persuade Raffaele to say that? Or did Napoleoni and Ficarra "remind" Raffaele that the American Halloween is on November 1st?

///

Fine, this is actually a very good observation; Amanda's command of Italian language was very basic these days and definitely not as good like we heard from courtroom recordings years later. If the cops started with Raffaele by telling him they have video, phone records and/or other proof Amanda was at the cottage and not with him ( and it is very likely they said something like this) it was very easy for them to convince him he got it wrong before. Innocent people don't expect police to lie to them and are more ready to blame themselves or their own memory in such circumstances. In fact it's quite possible Raffaele was not sure what day is Halloween and got fooled. It's not an Italian tradition.

 

[Danceme]

______________________

In the hearing before Judge Matteini, on November 8th, 2007, Raffaele admitted that he told the cops this "BS" story, the story of Amanda leaving him to go to Le Chic. The Matteini Report, summarizing that testimony of Raffaele (and published on November 9th, 2007) was accepted as part of the case file by Judge Massei. Raffaele's "BS" story didn't survive more than a few minutes---or a few hours---while he was interrogated by the cops on the night of November 5th....as demonstrated by Raffaele's Diary and the Matteini Report.

The "BS" story may have emerged from Raffaele misunderstanding Amanda's review of the situation as the lovebirds approached the Police Station the night of November 5th. Amanda, then stoned like Raffaele, speaking a unique variation on Italian..... imaginary verbs, americanized nouns, dangling, mispronounced infinitives galore. And Raffaele, while reviewing the situation, not recalling properly just which date the Americans celebrate Halloween.

Once at the Police Station, while he was being interrogated by Napoleoni and Ficarra, did the two cops begin to bicker between themselves on the exact date Americans celebrate Halloween? "She went to Le Chic to meet some friends." (Umm, which friends?) Just the sort of story---an instantly falsifiable story--- that Amanda would want the police to believe to explain her whereabouts the night of the murder. So would Amanda persuade Raffaele to say that? Or did Napoleoni and Ficarra "remind" Raffaele that the American Halloween is on November 1st?

///

Halloween in the US is on October 31st. I believe it is the same all over, including Italy and the rest of Europe.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Actually what convicted murderer Amanda Knox was doing anywhere at anytime (other than killing people) has nothing to do with the OP or the thread. It's all about her idiot parents. Let's get back to them.

TCS,

Dr. Giobbi testified that she screamed, giving credence to the notion that she was cuffed. Her parents can use this as evidence that what Amanda told them about her interrogation was true.

 

[Fine]

Fine, this is actually a very good observation; Amanda's command of Italian language was very basic these days and definitely not as good like we heard from courtroom recordings years later. If the cops started with Raffaele by telling him they have video, phone records and/or other proof Amanda was at the cottage and not with him ( and it is very likely they said something like this) it was very easy for them to convince him he got it wrong before. Innocent people don't expect police to lie to them and are more ready to blame themselves or their own memory in such circumstances. In fact it's quite possible Raffaele was not sure what day is Halloween and got fooled. It's not an Italian tradition.

_____________________

Katody,

October 31st, 2007, is probably the first time he celebrated Halloween, having his first American girlfriend.

Since you know Italian.........and since "all," "hallowed," and "eve," are old English ---not Italian--- words, how many Italians could guess from the word "Halloween" on which date the holiday is celebrated? Maybe the same number that can guess the date Americans celebrate Thanksgiving Day?

///

 

[platonov]

It's possible there is some truth to your implication that Rudy Guede might have received rough treatment by the police, had he been caught early and taken to the Questura as Amanda and Raffaele were. As it stands, though, the only evidence we have of what might have happened to him is what we know about what happened to Amanda and Raffaele, along with a slightly cynical suggestion that Rudy would have been treated worse because he's black.

<snip>

That was not my implication.

Whether in thrall to racist arguments as regards criminal profiling or not it didn't prevent ILE from following the evidence and statements and arresting the 'white college kids' - as opposed to dismissing it with "What were they smoking - lets wait till a black suspect turns up".

In fact when AK provided a black suspect at the drop of a hat they still held the 'white college kids'. It seems this view of Italian cops is not as accurate as some Seattleites believe.

 

[Mary_H]

That was not my implication.

What was your implication when you wrote, "I suspect the other suspect RG (the black guy) would not get such an easy ride under the circumstances, his involvement in a murder not being such an extraordinary event."?

Whether in thrall to racist arguments as regards criminal profiling or not it didn't prevent ILE from following the evidence and statements and arresting the 'white college kids' - as opposed to dismissing it with "What were they smoking - lets wait till a black suspect turns up".

In fact when AK provided a black suspect at the drop of a hat they still held the 'white college kids'. It seems this view of Italian cops is not as accurate as some Seattleites believe.

I think we need to get the last word from Rolfe on what he meant when he wrote, "Amanda's lying to the police makes me think, bizarre behaviour, what was she smoking? - oh, wait...." I thought he was being ironic, because Amanda did not actually lie.

You are starting with a couple of mistaken premises. First, the police did not follow the evidence when they arrested the white college kids. No one can document one iota of forensic evidence that existed against A & R before their interrogations. That police interrogations can lead to false confessions has been amply documented here and elsewhere.

Second, Amanda did not provide the name of a black suspect at the drop of a hat. The police forced Amanda to sign a document she did not write and that she did not understand the implications of.

When the police held the attractive, young, white, American college girl and the attractive, rich, non-macho, non-Perugian college boy, it was hardly because they were non-biased and prejudice-free.

 

[Rolfe]

Amamda said she was in the kitchen covering her ears while Patrick and Raffaelo murdered Meredith, or so I gathered from the posts here.

I presume you're not suggesting that's actually true....

Yes, I appreciate all that stuff about confabulation under stress and so on, just colour me a little bit sceptical that it's quite that easy in someone in full control of their faculties and memories.

Rolfe.

 

[Danceme]

Mary, why would Perugian police be biased and prejudiced against a couple of white college kids?

 

[lane99]

Amamda said she was in the kitchen covering her ears while Patrick and Raffaelo murdered Meredith, or so I gathered from the posts here.

I presume you're not suggesting that's actually true....

Yes, I appreciate all that stuff about confabulation under stress and so on, just colour me a little bit sceptical that it's quite that easy in someone in full control of their faculties and memories.

Rolfe.

Not exactly. She made an addled statement about being at the crime scene listening to Patrick (her boss) attack the victim. Raf the boyfriend was not mentioned as being present.

If you look into the details of how this statement came about, you may find (like I have) that it most probably is a false confession. At least it makes more sense as a false confession, than it does as a deliberate lie.

In short, Patrick was fingered because he was unfortunate enough to be the person to whom Knox had sent a text message saying "see you later" (or words to that effect).

The police took that message to mean she was arranging a subsequent meeting with the recipient of the text. But, I think quite more likely, she was just saying goodbye.