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Molten metal in other fires?

Interstate 580 in Oakland California, 2007:


thum_268324de87dfe7f28f.jpg



Shameless Quotemine said:
"It's incredible, amazing," he said. "If fire can do that a steel structure like this, what can the next earthquake do?"



http://articles.sfgate.com/2007-04-29/bay-area/17239903_1_tanker-truck-roadway-firefighters
 
Yeah. How many cub scout belt loops was he wearing?
As he was a Boy Scout I would guess, "none," but guesswork is not legally admissible. You caught me, completely disproving the possibility that fire can melt any metal known to science.

;)
 
I forgot to mention pot metal. It is an alloy of several metals such as aluminum and zinc which already have low melting points but, together, are even easier to melt and cast into just about any shape. It melts at such a low temperature that many scale modelers use it in a form made from self-vulcanizing sealant to replicate small parts like rifles, track shoes and gas cans.

It is also used in door handles and such on automobiles. They melt out rather easily.

I have noticed, when something made of this metal fails under stress, the edges of the fracture vaquely resemble John Hutchison's "shoe string metal."

I am working on aproject to see whether or not I can reproduce exactly the same sort of effect with an ordinary welding/cutting torch.
 
Indicators of Trouble
John J. Lentini
http://www.firescientist.com/Documents/IndicatorsOfTrouble.pdf

A study of the 1991 Oakland fire that burned 3,000 homes revealed the presence of melted copper in over 80% of the burned structures, and what appeared to be melted steel in over 90% of the burned structures. With respect to steel, looks can be deceiving. What appears to be melted may be merely oxidized.

Great resources, but I am always cautious to use media reports, unless they include photos of something. They sometimes embellish the truth to make the story more exciting. But, not always.

The best sources for fire-related news, Fire Engineering magazine, or Journal of Fire Science, Fire Protection Engineering Magazine, Firehouse magazine, those are all good sources.

I fixed the link to this article. Very interesting, especially the part where he talks about being careful about identifying metals.

BTW Welcome Fizzard!

:)
 
Rarely do aluminum cooking pots survive the total involvement of a house in a useable condition. Brass fixtures and copper piping often melt in a really intense fire.

Steel mostly warps and bends.

It is a surprise not to find some molten metal or glass in any large fire.

There has, to my knowledge, never been one in which molten steel was found. (That includes WTC.)

After a forest fire burned through and destroyed a buddy;s cabin we found his 22 cal rifle. Stock burned away completely but the rest looked absoluty fine,,, until I picked it up. It was now cooled to ambient temp but I could bend the barrel into a U without breaking a sweat.
 
After a forest fire burned through and destroyed a buddy;s cabin we found his 22 cal rifle. Stock burned away completely but the rest looked absoluty fine,,, until I picked it up. It was now cooled to ambient temp but I could bend the barrel into a U without breaking a sweat.

Most gun enthuiasts consider a weapon that has been in a fire to be totalled no matter how smoothly the action may still work. Your example is a clear illustration of that point.

It may be apocryphal, but an armorer I knew when I was on active duty related an account of the first test of a Browning .50 MG. Browning linked up a couple dozen belts of ammo and ran them all through the gun without a problem. When he stopped firing, the barrel sagged and was never useable again.
 
I will absolutely agree Sarge. Do not EVER use a firearm that has been involved in a fire. Even if it looks fine, the metal could be fatigued, and it could fail. Don't ever want that. Ever.


Suprising though, not a single truther has posted in this thread. I can only speculate why...........
 
Most gun enthuiasts consider a weapon that has been in a fire to be totalled no matter how smoothly the action may still work. Your example is a clear illustration of that point.

It may be apocryphal, but an armorer I knew when I was on active duty related an account of the first test of a Browning .50 MG. Browning linked up a couple dozen belts of ammo and ran them all through the gun without a problem. When he stopped firing, the barrel sagged and was never useable again.

I will absolutely agree Sarge. Do not EVER use a firearm that has been involved in a fire. Even if it looks fine, the metal could be fatigued, and it could fail. Don't ever want that. Ever.


Suprising though, not a single truther has posted in this thread. I can only speculate why...........


Thanks for the info, guys. :)
 
Fizzard its really hard to find several of these news reports online, where did you find them?


Sylmar fire's collateral damage
Los Angeles Times - Nov 28, 2008

Earlier this month, fire erupted in the hills above Sylmar. It blew through Oakridge Mobile Home Park, burning with such ferocity that rain gutters turned into pools of molten metal and car tires were melted down to tangled nests of steel radials.

========================

Deadly pile-up paralyses city
From: Herald Sun (Melbourne)
March 24, 2007 12:00AM

As the Burnley Tunnel tragedy unfolded:

WITNESSES watched a 15m fireball turn cars to molten metal and send thick plumes of smoke billowing skyward.
...

"This was extreme heat -- the wrecks are just molten metal," [Metropolitan Fire Brigade acting chief Keith Adamson] said.

========================

Police unable to locate drivers who escaped tunnel fire
The Daily Journal (San Mateo County), October 15, 2007

As the highway reopened early Monday, investigators worked to identify vehicles, some of which were reduced to molten steel in the fire's intense heat.

=========================

Tank Explosion Tied To California Bus Fire
Evening Independent - Jun 27, 1981

The intensity of the flames sent streams of molten metal running along the highway and blackened asphalt for a quarter of a mile.

...

[San Bernardino County Coroner Harvey Castro] said all the bodies were burned beyond recognition by the intense heat, "which just melted the bus."

=====================

Indicators of Trouble
John J. Lentini
w w w. firescientist.com/Documents/IndicatorsOfTrouble.pdf

A study of the 1991 Oakland fire that burned 3,000 homes revealed the presence of melted copper in over 80% of the burned structures, and what appeared to be melted steel in over 90% of the burned structures. With respect to steel, looks can be deceiving. What appears to be melted may be merely oxidized.

=====================

Fire Melts Steel Road Supports
Schenectady Gazette, August 7, 1989

A fire at an illegal dump beneath an elevated highway yesterday melted steel supports and buckled a section of the busy route into the New York metropolitan area, authorities said.

=====================

Old Amusement Park Burns
The Spokesman-Review (Spokane, WA) - Jul 22, 1963

Fire of searing intensity consumed much of the old Forest Park Highlands Amusement Park, a St. Louis landmark. The blaze, at its height here, "melted steel like butter," said one awed spectator.

=====================

Massive fire engulfs several blocks of Ybor City
Boca Raton News (Associated Press) - May 20, 2000

Several blocks of historic Ybor City went up in flames Friday, wiping out a $30 million luxury apartment complex under construction and destroying a post office.

The massive six-alarm blaze, caused by a construction accident, melted steel girders on nearby construction projects and sent construction workers and postal employees fleeing from the inferno.

=====================

Troopers Identify Fourth Victim In Fishing Boat Fire
Anchorage Daily News - Sep 15, 1982

Troopers said they have recovered remains of at least seven bodies from the fishing vessel Investor, which burned Sept. 7. The body of 4-year-old John Coulthurst was not found, but trooper spokesman Paul Edscorn said investigators believe the intense heat of the fire completely destroyed any remains.

"We're talking about a fire that melted steel," Edscorn said.

=====================

Worker Injured When Fire Erupts At Paint Warehouse
Ocala Star-Banner - May 28, 1987

Fire broke out at a paint warehouse on the city's north side Wednesday night, injuring one worker and turning the building into a pile of melted steel girders, authorities said.

=====================

Five-Alarm Blaze Razes Factory in New Orleans
The Victoria Advocate - Jul 9, 1980 (AP)

Flames, so hot they melted steel, destroyed the 800,000-square-foot American Standard plumbing accessories plant on Lake Pontchartrain early Tuesday and injured at least two firefighters who fought the spectacular blaze for more than six hours.

=====================

4 DIE IN HIGH-RISE FIRE
Chicago Sun-Times - January 18, 1996

What apparently drove residents to risk life and limb was dense, acrid smoke that filled the building and flames "so hot they melted steel," [Fire Commissioner Raymond] Orozco said.

=====================

Repairs to damaged stadium include safety improvements
USA TODAY - Aug 3, 1993

The fire, linked to cooking fuel left unattended, destroyed eight suites. Also, smoke damaged the press box and press lounge and the booth where the scoreboard and video displays are operated. The intense heat melted steel beams, forcing temporary closing of the 1,700 seats.

======================

Mobile home park is ground zero of Calif. wildfire
USA Today, November 15, 2008

Powerful Santa Ana winds continued to beat down, carrying ash and twigs from the devastated landscape. Elegant cacti spewed smoke and mail boxes hung from charred posts. Cars and motorcycles were reduced to piles of ash and molten steel.
 
While Fizzard gets back to me I'll link some more examples here to archive:

"The station’s newscast that evening stated that the fire reached a temperature of 5,000F/2,760C and melted thick metal plates"

http://windowssecrets.com/introduction/fire-at-web-host-affected-windows-secrets/


"Melted metal from the alloy wheels of burnt-out vehicles runs along the ground after a bushfire swept through Bendigo"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/picturegalleries/worldnews/4558167/Australian-bushfires.html?image=8

And one from Fizzard's list I could find:

"As the highway reopened early Monday, investigators worked to identify vehicles, some of which were reduced to molten steel in the fire's intense heat."

http://smdailyjournal.com/article_p...scaped tunnel fire&id=82024&eddate=10/16/2007
 
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I will absolutely agree Sarge. Do not EVER use a firearm that has been involved in a fire. Even if it looks fine, the metal could be fatigued, and it could fail. Don't ever want that. Ever.


Suprising though, not a single truther has posted in this thread. I can only speculate why...........

Damascus wound shotgun barrels come to mind.
And why Bren gun crews carry spare barrels.
Or the modern naval anti-aircraft gun barrels limited life span..
 
Fizzard its really hard to find several of these news reports online, where did you find them?

Sorry, I should have mentioned that all of those reports can be found in the Google News Archive.

news.google.com/archivesearch

(I'm still not allowed to post a fully formed link, alas.)
 
Sorry, I should have mentioned that all of those reports can be found in the Google News Archive.

news.google.com/archivesearch

(I'm still not allowed to post a fully formed link, alas.)


That is so awesome. Thanks!!
 
- Interesting information that leaves me with a question.-

Is it possible to raise the melting point of a metal?

Its mainly a curious question, and I appologise for the JAQ-off.

Part of me figures that the purity of the metal is the only way to achieve that and there is a upper limit to even what the puriest of metal can with stand before it changes phase or begins to show any kind of softening.

But hanging round here I've learned that nothing is ever that simple.
 
Is it possible to raise the melting point of a metal?

Its mainly a curious question, and I appologise for the JAQ-off.

Part of me figures that the purity of the metal is the only way to achieve that and there is a upper limit to even what the puriest of metal can with stand before it changes phase or begins to show any kind of softening.

But hanging round here I've learned that nothing is ever that simple.

Obviously, as you said, an unpure metal will melt at a lower temp than the pure form of that metal.

But, can you expand on this a little? Like, by "raise the melting point" do you mean like insulation or chemicals?
 
Obviously, as you said, an unpure metal will melt at a lower temp than the pure form of that metal.

But, can you expand on this a little? Like, by "raise the melting point" do you mean like insulation or chemicals?

Like something that is added to the actual alloy itself during the smelting stage. There is a lot of good discussion around here that shows anything added to the metal after its in place (insulation), is designed to either slow heating or prevent it until the added substance has reached its threshold for such prevention.

I was wondering if its possible to add things to the actual smelting and shaping stages of any metal (steel for this example) that would raise the melting point (or a point that its integrity is compromised).
 
Like something that is added to the actual alloy itself during the smelting stage. There is a lot of good discussion around here that shows anything added to the metal after its in place (insulation), is designed to either slow heating or prevent it until the added substance has reached its threshold for such prevention.

I was wondering if its possible to add things to the actual smelting and shaping stages of any metal (steel for this example) that would raise the melting point (or a point that its integrity is compromised).

The short answer is "Yes"... But at a price.

Generally speaking (I'm not a metallurgist so if I'm wrong I'm sure that I'll be corrected) changing the properties of a metal to have a higher melting point usually means a change in flexibility and strength and those changes would make it difficult and more expensive than building a similar structure out of conventional steel. It's cheaper and less complicated to install fire protection and suppression systems at the time of construction.
 

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