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Molten metal in other fires?

Edx

Philosopher
Edx
Joined
Feb 1, 2008
Messages
5,642
Other than WTC6 that I know of, does any of our residant fire experts (or anyone else) know of any other examples of other fires left behind molten metal? Like a news or an official report that mentions it or something. I'm sure it exists since burning cars leave behind molten metal
 
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Edx said:
Other than WTC6 that I know of, does any of our residant fire experts (or anyone else) know of any examples of other fires left behind molten metal? Like a news or an official report that mentions it or something.
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We cut up a burned car in the woods. The aluminum from the engine or some other part melted, dripped onto the ground, and re-solidified. The resulting mass looked like something out of Terminator 2.
 
Edx said:
Other than WTC6 that I know of, does any of our residant fire experts (or anyone else) know of any examples of other fires left behind molten metal? Like a news or an official report that mentions it or something.
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You can find a variety of stories about airplanes that have burned and the fuselage essentially disappeared (melted) as aluminum has a lower melting point. Images of molten metal falling from the WTC that was hit in the corner are most likely the aluminum from the plane.
 
Rarely do aluminum cooking pots survive the total involvement of a house in a useable condition. Brass fixtures and copper piping often melt in a really intense fire.

Steel mostly warps and bends.

It is a surprise not to find some molten metal or glass in any large fire.

There has, to my knowledge, never been one in which molten steel was found. (That includes WTC.)
 
Yea thats what I thought, would just be nice to find some mention of it. If its so common I can understand why no one would but even if they did the search terms bring up so much woo its buried
 
Edx said:
Other than WTC6 that I know of, does any of our residant fire experts (or anyone else) know of any other examples of other fires left behind molten metal? Like a news or an official report that mentions it or something. I'm sure it exists since burning cars leave behind molten metal
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Yes, damn near every single fire that occurs.

Here's what NFPA 921 says about Molten Metal.


NFPA 921 said:
22.3.3 Solid Fuels. Investigators should not interpret the presence of melted
metals to be an indicator of the use of an ignitable liquid as an
accelerant, in the belief that only an ignitable liquid can produce
sufficiently high temperatures. Common combustibles
and ignitable liquids produce essentially the same flame temperature.
Melting temperatures given in handbooks and in
this guide are for the pure metal, unless otherwise stated. In
many cases, alloys are used rather than the pure metal. The
melting temperature of an alloy is generally lower than that of
its constituents. The actual composition of a metal part and its
melting temperature should be determined before any conclusions
are drawn from the fact that it has melted. Accidental
alloying may occur during a fire. For instance, zinc may drip
onto a copper wire or tube and form a brass alloy, which melts
at a lower temperature than copper. Likewise, molten aluminum
can drip onto steel sheet metal, which can cause the
appearance of melting of the sheet steel. Some properties and
uses of solid fuels are given in Table 22.3.3"
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Also


NFPA 921 said:
21.5.1.3 Other Metals. Other metals, such as zinc or brass,might be used in housings. They would be likely to be just decorative
pieces or to be supports for other components. Zinc
melts at the relatively low temperature of 786°F (419°C) and
so is almost always found as a lump of gray metal. Brass is used
in many electrical terminals. Brasses have ranges of melting temperatures in the neighborhood of 1740°F (950°C). Brass items are often found to be partly melted or just distorted after a fire. Because it is an alloy, brass softens over a range of temperatures rather than melting at a specific temperature.
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In conclusion, molten metal happens often. It is not suprising to find molten metal in a fire.
 
Two personal observations:

1) Once as a kid we raked all the leaves from my grandfather's farm's homestead (say, 4 or 5 acres) into the garden (it was finished producing) and lit them on fire. I had a Mountain Dew can, and was going to toss it in the recycling bin. My uncle said "No, give it here, I've got something to show you." He dug out a small cave in the burning leaves and put the can in. We watched the thing melt. I said "Well, it could just be falling in"--at which point my uncle took it out and we saw that it had clearly melted, in that hte bottom half of the can was gone.

2) A great-uncle tried to clean a cast-aluminum piece of cooking equipment (it takes two slices of bread and pie filling and makes pies over a fire) by tossing it in the camp fire we'd built. This was a small one for us--the flames weren't 6' high yet. Ruined a great pie maker that way.

Bonus: At a family reunion they cooked stew ("Hey, what are we going to do with all these leftovers?" "Let's invite some people over! These guys will eat ANYTHING!") in cauldrens (no other word for them) over fires in old tire rims. By 3pm the tires were glowing bright orange. They were seriously deformed once the cooking was done--enough that we couldn't use them for a second round of cooking.

None of these involved anything but ordinary wood--some fruit wood, some pine, some box elder. In one case it was leaves. Give me a house to play with and I'll start casting iron and bronze. (As an aside, the mere presence of bronze weapons is enough to discount the whole "fire can't melt metal" idiocy--the only way to really make bronze weapons of the types we've found is to cast them, as bronze can't be forged the way iron isi and they didn't have the right tech anyway when the bronze stuff was made. Cast iron makes their case even worse--casting by definition involves molten metal.)
 
Thanks Tri!

Thats just what I was looking for. Shame its not freely available you know what truthers are like, they'll just claim it doesn't really say that unless they can see it for free.

Next best thing, is it possible to take a screenshot of those quotes from the pdf (or whatever) and upload it to imageshack or something? If not, thanks all the same.
 
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Great! I'm surprised we haven't done this before now.

EDIT: Just noticed on the 3rd one about steel, it even says that under extreme conditions steel can melt in a fire! hahaha!
 
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Sylmar fire's collateral damage
Los Angeles Times - Nov 28, 2008

Earlier this month, fire erupted in the hills above Sylmar. It blew through Oakridge Mobile Home Park, burning with such ferocity that rain gutters turned into pools of molten metal and car tires were melted down to tangled nests of steel radials.

========================

Deadly pile-up paralyses city
From: Herald Sun (Melbourne)
March 24, 2007 12:00AM

As the Burnley Tunnel tragedy unfolded:

WITNESSES watched a 15m fireball turn cars to molten metal and send thick plumes of smoke billowing skyward.
...

"This was extreme heat -- the wrecks are just molten metal," [Metropolitan Fire Brigade acting chief Keith Adamson] said.

========================

Police unable to locate drivers who escaped tunnel fire
The Daily Journal (San Mateo County), October 15, 2007

As the highway reopened early Monday, investigators worked to identify vehicles, some of which were reduced to molten steel in the fire's intense heat.

=========================

Tank Explosion Tied To California Bus Fire
Evening Independent - Jun 27, 1981

The intensity of the flames sent streams of molten metal running along the highway and blackened asphalt for a quarter of a mile.

...

[San Bernardino County Coroner Harvey Castro] said all the bodies were burned beyond recognition by the intense heat, "which just melted the bus."

=====================

Indicators of Trouble
John J. Lentini
w w w. firescientist.com/Documents/IndicatorsOfTrouble.pdf

A study of the 1991 Oakland fire that burned 3,000 homes revealed the presence of melted copper in over 80% of the burned structures, and what appeared to be melted steel in over 90% of the burned structures. With respect to steel, looks can be deceiving. What appears to be melted may be merely oxidized.

=====================

Fire Melts Steel Road Supports
Schenectady Gazette, August 7, 1989

A fire at an illegal dump beneath an elevated highway yesterday melted steel supports and buckled a section of the busy route into the New York metropolitan area, authorities said.

=====================

Old Amusement Park Burns
The Spokesman-Review (Spokane, WA) - Jul 22, 1963

Fire of searing intensity consumed much of the old Forest Park Highlands Amusement Park, a St. Louis landmark. The blaze, at its height here, "melted steel like butter," said one awed spectator.

=====================

Massive fire engulfs several blocks of Ybor City
Boca Raton News (Associated Press) - May 20, 2000

Several blocks of historic Ybor City went up in flames Friday, wiping out a $30 million luxury apartment complex under construction and destroying a post office.

The massive six-alarm blaze, caused by a construction accident, melted steel girders on nearby construction projects and sent construction workers and postal employees fleeing from the inferno.

=====================

Troopers Identify Fourth Victim In Fishing Boat Fire
Anchorage Daily News - Sep 15, 1982

Troopers said they have recovered remains of at least seven bodies from the fishing vessel Investor, which burned Sept. 7. The body of 4-year-old John Coulthurst was not found, but trooper spokesman Paul Edscorn said investigators believe the intense heat of the fire completely destroyed any remains.

"We're talking about a fire that melted steel," Edscorn said.

=====================

Worker Injured When Fire Erupts At Paint Warehouse
Ocala Star-Banner - May 28, 1987

Fire broke out at a paint warehouse on the city's north side Wednesday night, injuring one worker and turning the building into a pile of melted steel girders, authorities said.

=====================

Five-Alarm Blaze Razes Factory in New Orleans
The Victoria Advocate - Jul 9, 1980 (AP)

Flames, so hot they melted steel, destroyed the 800,000-square-foot American Standard plumbing accessories plant on Lake Pontchartrain early Tuesday and injured at least two firefighters who fought the spectacular blaze for more than six hours.

=====================

4 DIE IN HIGH-RISE FIRE
Chicago Sun-Times - January 18, 1996

What apparently drove residents to risk life and limb was dense, acrid smoke that filled the building and flames "so hot they melted steel," [Fire Commissioner Raymond] Orozco said.

=====================

Repairs to damaged stadium include safety improvements
USA TODAY - Aug 3, 1993

The fire, linked to cooking fuel left unattended, destroyed eight suites. Also, smoke damaged the press box and press lounge and the booth where the scoreboard and video displays are operated. The intense heat melted steel beams, forcing temporary closing of the 1,700 seats.

======================

Mobile home park is ground zero of Calif. wildfire
USA Today, November 15, 2008

Powerful Santa Ana winds continued to beat down, carrying ash and twigs from the devastated landscape. Elegant cacti spewed smoke and mail boxes hung from charred posts. Cars and motorcycles were reduced to piles of ash and molten steel.
 
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WOw your google skills are far better than mine, I can't imagine how hard it was to find these (maybe I'm just bad at googling) wading through all that truther crap.

Well that about does it for molten metal not being normal in fires.
 
Great resources, but I am always cautious to use media reports, unless they include photos of something. They sometimes embellish the truth to make the story more exciting. But, not always.

The best sources for fire-related news, Fire Engineering magazine, or Journal of Fire Science, Fire Protection Engineering Magazine, Firehouse magazine, those are all good sources.
 
triforcharity said:
Great resources, but I am always cautious to use media reports, unless they include photos of something. They sometimes embellish the truth to make the story more exciting. But, not always.
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There is at least a few that are professional sources, like Indicators of Trouble (I actually knew about that I should have checked it first)

The thing is it is actually relevant to give news sources because even if they mention melting steel and even if they are wrong, thats the kind of thing that on 911 truthers would go GAGA over. So its only right to show them that molten metal and molten steel are reported in other fires in the news in the same way. Its a great way to debunk this claim by showing this along with professional resources IMO

I mean think about it, you have truthers claiming that people HAD to have seen molten steel because they said steel, but here we can see that even before 911 people were saying steel melted from fire. It doesn't really matter if it did or not, because even if it was some other metal, what matters is they said it and thats what truthers always cling to with this claim in my experience.
 
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Edx,

The easiest way to search for something like "molten metal" and omit the woo, you can go to google.com and click on "Advanced search" and you can tell it to omit the text 911

It's works like a charm.


Or, you can type this in your search bar.

"Molten metal" -911, -conspiracy, whereas, the - designates what to omit.
 
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Edx said:
There is at least a few that are professional sources, like Indicators of Trouble (I actually knew about I should have checked it first)

The thing is it is actually relevant to give news sources because even if they mention melting steel and even if they are wrong, thats the kind of thing that on 911 truthers would go GAGA over. So its only right to show them that molten metal and molten steel are reported in other fires in the news in the same way. Its a great way to debunk this claim by showing this along with professional resources IMO

I mean think about it, you have truthers claiming that people HAD to have seen molten steel because they said steel, but here we can see that even before 911 people were saying steel melted from fire. It doesn't really matter if it did or not, because even if it was some other metal, what matters is they said it and thats what truthers always cling to with this claim in my experience.
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I see what you mean, and you're exactly right. I didn't see it that way, but makes perfect sense.
 
I was in a group of Boy Scouts working toward our Cooking merit badges. Well, I was, and the biscuits I cooked in my aluminum Dutch oven (you put hot coils on top to get surround heating) were mostly edible, but another Scout, BIG surprise as we were 12, wanted to see how hot he could make his. While I was eating my only-slightly-scorched biscuits the center of his coals collapsed and a pool of molten aluminum ran out of it. With a wood-fired campfire he had exceeded 1220 degrees F. I got my badge; he got a do-over.
 
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dropzone said:
I was in a group of Boy Scouts working toward our Cooking merit badges. Well, I was, and the biscuits I cooked in my aluminum Dutch oven (you put hot coils on top to get surround heating) were mostly edible, but another Scout, BIG surprise as we were 12, wanted to see how hot he could make his. While I was eating my only-slightly-scorched biscuits the center of his coals collapsed and a pool of molten aluminum ran out of it. With a wood-fired campfire he had exceeded 1220 degrees F. I got my badge; he got a do-over.
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Yeah. How many cub scout belt loops was he wearing?
 
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