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The Massei/Mignini Conspiracy Theory

Well I must say that guilty time line is a good job. This case is about a brutal murder and so anything could have happened and so I cant quite claim it a big foot argument at all.
This is plausable.

My biggest thoughts against this theory are two.

1. This crime is so very common...for one person to commit that is. A robbery, rape murder happens every day somewhere in the world. This crime involving 3 persons ...one of whom is a girl is a big foot moment.

2. This guilty time line is the best Ive seen so far...but if it is true then what explains the failure of AK, RS to lawyer up very quickly? Certainly they would be more scared if this were the actual case and so after day 1 of questioning they would have run to a lawyer. Instead they returned to the police on the 2nd,3rd,4th,5th...and never thought they might be better off speaking to a lawyer? This is where the theory fails the smell test.


Your second point is important, in my opinion. Place yourself for a moment in the shoes of Amanda Knox, if you actually had participated in the murder. Now, you might feel it would be provocative and shifty to engage the services of a lawyer before you'd even first been interviewed by the police (even though apparently both Filomena and Laura did exactly that), so you might deliberately allow the police to interview you "naked" a few times. But by the 3rd or 4th November, and following cumulative multiple hours of police questioning, you'd easily determine that it wouldn't look at all unusual or indicative of guilt if you were to contact a lawyer and/or the US Embassy/Consulate. Knox herself complained of police pressure by the 3rd/4th: this would be ample reason in itself to contact the US Embassy/Consulate (which of course she should have done on the 2nd anyhow).

The very fact that she chose not to seek advice or representation from local criminal lawyers or the US authorities implies that either:

1) she participated in the murder but was either
1a) too stupid to realise that engaging a lawyer and informing the US authorities would likely help her and not appear to be indicative of guilt, or
1b) had absolute balls of steel - which every other known element of her character does not bear out; or

2) she did not participate in the murder, and did not realise that the police had decided she was a suspect.
 
A new* departure - All CT's should be investigated/settled this way.

Excellent :D

What I find most interesting is that Draca managed to come up with a semi-pluasible timeline of the murder that involves all three, something that neither Massei, nor Mignini, nor any of your guilty crowd have managed to do. It's still a bit iffy in that it requires a very late TOD and AK and RS to have been able to get to the cottage, had the murder occur, and then gotten back to his place all in about 45 minutes, but....
 
That's still almost 4 hours after begining the last meal.


You also need to work in the juice and the fight in the hall. Rudy wouldn't have just made that stuff up.



Sorry for bringing this up days later but speaking of the "fight in the hall", what ever happened to the blood traces between the couch and refrig? Im not sure of the exact location...but there were ?drops of blood somewhere out in the common area. I know I read this somewhere and yet I have nothing about any determination of these drops. Am I dreaming this stuff?:eye-poppi
 
Sorry for bringing this up days later but speaking of the "fight in the hall", what ever happened to the blood traces between the couch and refrig? Im not sure of the exact location...but there were ?drops of blood somewhere out in the common area. I know I read this somewhere and yet I have nothing about any determination of these drops. Am I dreaming this stuff?:eye-poppi


Look at the photos of Rudy's shoe prints from Meredith's room to the exit. In a few of those prints there are extra splats of what appear to be diluted blood like a drip coming off the cuff of Rudy's pants after he tried to wash them in the bathroom.

I din't think this has been reported anywhere else so maybe we are both dreaming.

:s2:
 
I don't know and Amanda is not telling. The knife was 'clean' before it was brought to the cottage. They just put it back in the drawer because it still looked clean. As the DNA expert's recent leak notes - it wasn't cleaned with bleach or anything.



Rudy made the bathmat print. As I said above, Raffaele and Amanda never went into the bedroom. The hall prints are probably old prints unrelated. Rudy may have left a couple though. Amanda left her DNA in Filomena's room when she went in there. She had recently touched Meredith and brought her DNA in also. I'm not sure what made the luminol blob react, but it was definitely their DNA.



I’m glad you said this about the bathmat print. Because this print has to come from Rudy. Nothing else makes sense. First off who participates in a brutal murder barefooted? I’m pretty certain AK would characterize that as yucky. But lets guess that they did that anyway. And lets further guess that they hopped on one foot into the bathroom momentarily placing one bloody foot down and leaving the bathmat print. If this were the case then where is the negative of this print?

Even for Rudy I want more information about this print. Did he put down towels on his way into the bathroom? How did he get to the bathroom w/o any obvious trace? For that matter how did RS do that as well? But that brings us back the negative...where did RS step into the blood? And how did he get to the bathroom...? Did we have a bunch of bunnies at this crime? The bathroom floor may have been wiped up but the hallway was certainly not.

I want to make your case better. You need to have a good reason for two lazy students on vacation and pot smokers to drag their butts outside on a cold Nov night. And why go all the way to the cottage? Food, sex, drugs... they had all that. I don’t think they went to collect the bunny toy. I saw tons of condoms in the police video. It seems odd that condoms are piled all around the German Harry Potter book.

I guess I want more motive just to get them outside on a cold Nov night.
 
Look at the photos of Rudy's shoe prints from Meredith's room to the exit. In a few of those prints there are extra splats of what appear to be diluted blood like a drip coming off the cuff of Rudy's pants after he tried to wash them in the bathroom.

I din't think this has been reported anywhere else so maybe we are both dreaming.

:s2:

I'll find it.

Tomorrow.
 
Rudy admits that his pants were bloody and he tried to cover them with a sweatshirt when he left the cottage because they were wet. From this and the drips of watery blood following his footprints, I speculate that he went into the bathroom, removed his shoe and tried to wash the blood off his pants in the shower. Stepping out of the shower, he places the now bloody foot on the bathmat as he reaches for the towel. The foot and pants are patted dry and the shoe is put back on before returning to Meredith't room with the wet towel.


This trail of footprint is a bit at odds with the theory of guilt being presented. The bloody footprints are also on the pillow which is under Meredith before Rudy cleans up in the bathroom. Draca either needs to account for the start and stop of two separate series of prints or these are one continuous set.
 
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My Guilt Theory

It was all about the lamp.

Perhaps that sounds ridiculous, but quite frankly any theory that has the rather nice bohemian couple of Raffaele and Amanda conspiring with Rudy Guede to kill a perfectly inoffensive girl like Meredith Kercher is going to come off as absurd anyway. Plus I find an explanation for the lamp that explains how it got there without having to blame it on sloppy cops and having Platonov calling me a conspiracy theorist. Wait, he's going to do that anyway, nevermind. :p

I will start with something I've wondered why no one has ever done, move the time that Meredith ate, not the time of death. The testimony comes from the English girls, and I've wondered why they had such difficulty remembering when they ate that night, being as they knew just about when Meredith returned home, and they ought to be able to subtract two hours or so from that and then roughly the amount of other time expended beforehand without about an hour discrepancy.

The reason for that is they were stoned. Here you have a number of college girls who partake in the pungent smokeables, perhaps a little hung-over still from the night before, and watching movies, I think it not unlikely they may have been toking that night. It didn't come out in part for the same reason the cops didn't find out Amanda was stoned until the fifth, they just didn't volunteer that information to the police, and quite possibly they didn't want to speak ill of the dead; why not just keep it to themselves?

Meredith, however, was out especially late and was 'overserved' so when the pizza-eating commences she takes a couple of pieces, thinks about it, and decides to wait until the anti-nausea effects of the cannabis kicks in more fully, and puts them back or off to the side where no one notices. The other girls aren't really paying attention, talking amongst themselves and enjoying the comfortable numbness of THC.

Around about eight o'clock, shortly before the apple crumble she gets up from the movie, feeling a little better, and wolfs down some pizza while the other girls are engrossed in the show or perhaps conversation and don't notice. They eventually notice she's gone and at that point stop the movie and have some apple crumble with her, not having realized she just got done with the pizza. The movie ends a little later, she's not feeling very well from the recent rapid consumption of her meal and Sophie Purton walks her home. She comes in, starts to make the expected call to her mother and then realizes the pizza still hasn't settled well and decides to put it off. She sits down to hopefully alleviate the discomfort, grabs the textbook and loafs for a little while.

Meanwhile, Raffaele and Amanda are being naughty, watching movies and enjoying the sweetleaf as well. They put in Naruto, and try to blaze up again and realize they're out. They remember Meredith is tending the plants of the boys downstairs and might have some of her own anyway, and they set out at about 9:30 to see if they can get some from her. Rudy Guede has also stopped by the cottage looking for the boys who are away and is thirsty and needs to take a dump. Amanda and Raffaele run into him, and as she seen him around with the boys and Le Chic and was introduced once, she is willing to let him come in and do his business, which he proceeds to do after having something to drink.

Meredith, seeing Amanda come home with a strange man again and Raffaele as well, is rather cross as she's still not feeling that well, and she has just begun to get undressed. Amanda goes into her room and tries to hit her up for her stash, but Meredith has just about had it with the habits of this annoying yank and an argument commences. Raffaele is waiting uncomfortably outside the room, and Rudy finishes up quickly, forgets to flush and joins him as they hear the two girls catfighting through the door. Amanda is demanding her lamp back and tries to take it, and Meredith--who isn't going to give an inch--won't let her have it and tries to snatch it out of her hand and it ends up falling to the floor near the door . Amanda breaks into tears and exits the room in a rage where she finds Rudy and Raffaele waiting for her, and demands that Raffaele retrieve her lamp.

Raffaele hesitates, having enough sense to want to avoid getting involved in the altercation, and Rudy who kinda fancies Amanda makes his move as Meredith comes out, still somewhat undressed, which she realizes immediately, enraging her further. She lets out a stream of the vernacular Anglo-Saxon which is about the only English Rudy knows well. The fire rushes to Rudy's head as the embarrassment of being cursed out by a girl at the same time he's trying to win the approval of another hits him where it hurts inside. He draws a knife with the intent to threaten, which just causes Meredith to mock him, as she's simply had it now, she came home early feeling ill and these smoked-up louts have totally gone too far.

Rudy advances and Meredith all of a sudden realizes she's really pissed Rudy off, and the stoned Raffaele and the blubbering Amanda are of no help so she retreats into her room and Rudy follows, adrenaline coursing through his system. Meredith pauses in hopes of deescalating the situation, but gets hit with the knife and screams, and in a white hot furor killer instinct takes over and the horrific part happens. Raffaele has started to regain his senses and is at the door and she tries to call out his name as she succumbs to unconsciousness, bleeding to death.

However, there is no rape. One thing you can find from the very beginning from the coroners and the courts is there's something very strange about the DNA inside. What happens instead is something I saw posted at PMF way back in their archives from one of their Italians or someone familiar with the practices of Italian police and their laws. Apparently police in Italy get expanded powers for sex-murders, and one of the Perugian police first on the scene after the postal police, outraged at this the death of this beautiful half-dressed girl is determined to ensure that they have all the powers at their disposal to hunt down the killer. As the ponderous Italian regulations stipulate something must be found there, he takes something he's pretty damn sure contains the DNA of the killer and puts it there with a tool to be found by the scientifica polizia.

However at the scene everyone realizes the horror of what happened. The stress of the acute anxiety Amanda feels seeing her friend killed so quickly causes her nose to start to bleed somewhat, and she retreats to the bathroom to get some cotton balls and wash up, a drop of her blood landing on the faucet which she fails to notice as she washes the rest of the blood down the drain. Rudy, still in the murder room, gets towels from Raffaele to start a clean-up, but soon realizes it's pointless so he wipes himself down somewhat, heads to the bathroom where Amanda has just finished up, takes off his shoe and makes the bathmat print in the process.

They all feel terribly guilty, but none want to pay the price for this horrific crime so plans are made to avoid responsibility, Raffaele realizing Italian law will hold them responsible just for being there. Rudy suggests they pretend it was a break in, and says he will stage one as he leaves. He says he will leave the country, as he knows he'll leave traces everywhere, and demands money. Raffaele and Amanda go through the rest of the house while Rudy look for Meredith's purse, but in the process he gets more blood on his shoes and slips a little and catches himself causing blood to get on his hand as he goes through the purse, finding the keys first and taking them as he thinks maybe they'll come in handy, knowing that one of the keys is for the boys place downstairs and thinking maybe he'll find those plants. They also find the phones and offer them to Rudy, Amanda through Raffaele trying to tell Rudy how to access Meredith's bank, to which she knows the code but can't get it across how to get money.

Rudy just wants to get out of there at that point and after they all promise never to tell a soul he exits at a run headed for the woods to cover his retreat, and then remembers he said he'd stage a break-in and climbs up, opens the outer shutter which isn't completely closed, throws a rock through the window and departs posthaste, forgetting to open the window. It occurs to him to attempt to establish an alibi, which he does by going straight to the disco still with the hastily cleaned up blood on him which will start to reek, mixed with his especially pungent sweat from the massive anxiety of the murder.

Amanda and Raffaele go over the place quickly, Amanda hearing the rock go through the window goes into Filomena's room and notices the window wasn't opened, and does so, getting glass on a shoe which she stops to take off when she hears it crunch, where she causes the glop, something of Meredith's that Rudy had tracked around and gotten on the top of her shoe falls to the floor in Filomena's room as well as her DNA.

Raffaele can't help himself, he carefully enters Meredith's room, he has to see what happened, and he dodges Rudy's shoeprints and approaches the body which he reaches out to touch, getting close enough something ends up on the bra-clasp before he realizes what a bad idea it was as it will be with him the rest of his life and he just as carefully retreats meeting Amanda at the door, who unbeknowenst has a glass shard which will end up in the doorway and later tracked in by the postal policeman who lied about entering.

They both just want to get the hell out of there at this point, traumatized by the whole ordeal, thus they leave, and return to Raffaele's, it only being 10:00 at this point, having spent only twenty minutes total in the cottage. Meredith, who'd been stabbed a mere five minutes into the fracas but had gone unconscious quickly due to trauma and blood loss, dies; Raffaele and Amanda not having realized she'd been technically alive the past fifteen minutes, after all in the movies it's instantaneous practically.

Amanda's autonomic nervous system, frazzled from the ups and downs of the night, starts to bottom out, causing her to want sleep which she does after being comforted by Raffaele, who cannot sleep and won't until early morning, spending it on the computer to distract his mind from the view of the body which Amanda had not witnessed. He finally sleeps early in the morning, with the aid of Filomena's hash which he'd pocketed when going through the place, having forgotten to actually take anything besides, which he realizes at this moment, rationalizing that at least he wasn't a thief and didn't actually have much responsibility for the murder.

Amanda wakes first the next day in horror, realizing it wasn't a dream. She returns to the cottage to see if the murder was discovered, and starts to plan out the story. Realizing no one has noticed yet, and that Raffaele had wisely locked the door to Meredith's room, she decides to take a shower to make sure she doesn't have anything on her body that might have adhered during the brief struggle she had with Meredith, and to try to scrub away the horrific guilt she feels. She exits the shower not realizing Raffaele had taken the towels, and she accidentally steps in highly diluted blood which pooled on the floor near the bathmat. She returns to her room, pausing at Meredith's door as she breaks into tears, eventually composing herself and trying to figure out what to do.

She returns to Raffaele's, and they decide to pretend to discover the murder, making all the necessary phone calls. As she contemplates facing the police, hysteria starts to mount and she asks Raffaele to get her damned lamp, and Raffaele thinking she's being silly doesn't try very hard and then decides to get her out of the cottage. The postal police arrive unexpectedly, and Massei takes over from here.

Amanda feels terrible guilt so she's torn between helping and obstructing, causing her take the police right to Rudy's feces and other traces, but temporizing when the door is about to be opened, which Filomena will notice. Amanda's conscience and kind of offbeat personality causes her to willingly subject herself to constant police presence, during which time she starts to raise suspicion in the officers. She tries too hard and overdoes it. Giobbi is not quite as clueless as he comes across, it's not so much the hip-wiggling and her breaking down with the knives but just something about the way she is when it happens. That causes him to wonder even more when she's out getting pizza, as she acts even more differently away from the police. Napoleoni and Mignini pick up on it as well.

Raffaele can't get that view of the body out of his mind, he starts to smoke even more hash that normal, culminating in him being so stoned he forgets he has his knife on when summoned to the police station on the fifth, which doesn't cause him the panic it should have. Amanda thinks she's got everyone fooled, though privately she's a mess as she feels horrific about the whole ordeal, causing even more erratic behavior which the cops are noticing even more, and she detects Raffaele's detachment as she knows she got him into this mess and she dares not let him out of her sight, so she goes into the police station on the fifth of her own accord, Raffaele being so out of it and realizing she's attached to his hip he doesn't even bother to tell her she was summoned too.

Raffaele enters the police station and quickly realizes in his fogged state he cannot endure interrogation. He starts to get angry, thinking it was mostly Amanda who got him into this mess, so he tells the police a 'load of crap' so they'll go bother her about it. The police start slowly with Amanda, who feigns more difficulty than she should with Italian, puzzling the officers as they'd been able to communicate better in previous unmoderated encounters. Thus they then summon a translator who arrives at 12:30 and they then put the screws to her.

They have their eye on Patrick, mainly because of the text she 'forgot' to tell them about and other errors and coincidences they've picked up. Amanda breaks within the hour, giving them what they want, but not willing to give them much more because she feels terrible about doing that too. They keep after her and she resists better now, having succumbed she won't extrapolate much further.

Thinking they've solved the crime and have the murderers and will find the physical evidence at the scene, the police don't press her as hard as they should. Soon after she's arrested she realizes she's been played, and also feels terrible about giving them Patrick, thus she writes her 'gift' note, trying to recant her confession. As she was actually guilty the threat of them having 'hard evidence' making her capitulation much quicker.

In prison they both figure they can get away with lying about it as they weren't actually physically involved in the murder much, but despite their togetherness after the murder and before the arrest they have grown apart emotionally. Both try in their diaries to hint the other might have been involved, before realizing that would likely end up with the other also turning on them. Thus after feigning suspicion of the other they soon realize it would be best to pretend they've come to the conclusion they don't suspect each other.

Rudy feels grave remorse as well due to the fact he's the one who physically did the deed, and doesn't want the others to suffer for his crime. Though to spare himself some prison time he does kinda implicate them both, but he never gives the prosecution what it really wants.

Just off the top of my head, I'm sure I missed a number of things, tear it up guys. :)
 
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It was all about the lamp.

Perhaps that sounds ridiculous, but quite frankly any theory that has the rather nice bohemian couple of Raffaele and Amanda conspiring with Rudy Guede to kill a perfectly inoffensive girl like Meredith Kercher is going to come off as absurd anyway. Plus I find an explanation for the lamp that explains how it got there without having to blame it on sloppy cops and having Platonov calling me a conspiracy theorist. Wait, he's going to do that anyway, nevermind. :p

I will start with something I've wondered why no one has ever done, move the time that Meredith ate, not the time of death. The testimony comes from the English girls, and I've wondered why they had such difficulty remembering when they ate that night, being as they knew just about when Meredith returned home, and they ought to be able to subtract two hours or so from that and then roughly the amount of other time expended beforehand without about an hour discrepancy.

The reason for that is they were stoned. Here you have a number of college girls who partake in the pungent smokeables, perhaps a little hung-over still from the night before, and watching movies, I think it not unlikely they may have been toking that night. It didn't come out in part for the same reason the cops didn't find out Amanda was stoned until the fifth, they just didn't volunteer that information to the police, and quite possibly they didn't want to speak ill of the dead; why not just keep it to themselves?

Actually at one point the pathologist (I think) said MK had a high level of alcohol in her blood. This was written off as lab contamination.


Meredith, however, was out especially late and was 'overserved' so when the pizza-eating commences she takes a couple of pieces, thinks about it, and decides to wait until the anti-nausea effects of the cannabis kicks in more fully, and puts them back or off to the side where no one notices. The other girls aren't really paying attention, talking amongst themselves and enjoying the comfortable numbness of THC.

Around about eight o'clock, shortly before the apple crumble she gets up from the movie, feeling a little better, and wolfs down some pizza while the other girls are engrossed in the show or perhaps conversation and don't notice. They eventually notice she's gone and at that point stop the movie and have some apple crumble with her, not having realized she just got done with the pizza. The movie ends a little later, she's not feeling very well from the recent rapid consumption of her meal and Sophie Purton walks her home. She comes in, starts to make the expected call to her mother and then realizes the pizza still hasn't settled well and decides to put it off. She sits down to hopefully alleviate the discomfort, grabs the textbook and loafs for a little while.

Meanwhile, Raffaele and Amanda are being naughty, watching movies and enjoying the sweetleaf as well. They put in Naruto, and try to blaze up again and realize they're out. They remember Meredith is tending the plants of the boys downstairs and might have some of her own anyway, and they set out at about 9:30 to see if they can get some from her.


I was at one time certain the only thing to bring AK, RS out on the cold night was because they were OOD (out of drugs). Rudy says he was there at 8:30...he is videoed near that time. But we certainly have AK at RS home at 8:40. I’m missing something here...is it a computer file time stamp? So far I like it.


Rudy Guede has also stopped by the cottage looking for the boys who are away and is thirsty and needs to take a dump. Amanda and Raffaele run into him, and as she seen him around with the boys and Le Chic and was introduced once, she is willing to let him come in and do his business, which he proceeds to do after having something to drink.

Yes still good...lets have him take the drink after the BM.




Meredith, seeing Amanda come home with a strange man again and Raffaele as well, is rather cross as she's still not feeling that well, and she has just begun to get undressed. Amanda goes into her room and tries to hit her up for her stash, but Meredith has just about had it with the habits of this annoying yank and an argument commences. Raffaele is waiting uncomfortably outside the room, and Rudy finishes up quickly, forgets to flush and joins him as they hear the two girls catfighting through the door. Amanda is demanding her lamp back and tries to take it, and Meredith--who isn't going to give an inch--won't let her have it and tries to snatch it out of her hand and it ends up falling to the floor near the door . Amanda breaks into tears and exits the room in a rage where she finds Rudy and Raffaele waiting for her, and demands that Raffaele retrieve her lamp.

Raffaele hesitates, having enough sense to want to avoid getting involved in the altercation, and Rudy who kinda fancies Amanda makes his move as Meredith comes out, still somewhat undressed, which she realizes immediately, enraging her further. She lets out a stream of the vernacular Anglo-Saxon which is about the only English Rudy knows well. The fire rushes to Rudy's head as the embarrassment of being cursed out by a girl at the same time he's trying to win the approval of another hits him where it hurts inside. He draws a knife with the intent to threaten, which just causes Meredith to mock him, as she's simply had it now, she came home early feeling ill and these smoked-up louts have totally gone too far.


Only thing I don’t like...is "MK was somewhat undressed". Its pretty clear her hoodie was pulled off inside out. Perhaps her jeans??? Okkkk.


Rudy advances and Meredith all of a sudden realizes she's really pissed Rudy off, and the stoned Raffaele and the blubbering Amanda are of no help so she retreats into her room and Rudy follows, adrenaline coursing through his system. Meredith pauses in hopes of deescalating the situation, but gets hit with the knife and screams, and in a white hot furor killer instinct takes over and the horrific part happens. Raffaele has started to regain his senses and is at the door and she tries to call out his name as she succumbs to unconsciousness, bleeding to death.

However, there is no rape. One thing you can find from the very beginning from the coroners and the courts is there's something very strange about the DNA inside. What happens instead is something I saw posted at PMF way back in their archives from one of their Italians or someone familiar with the practices of Italian police and their laws. Apparently police in Italy get expanded powers for sex-murders, and one of the Perugian police first on the scene after the postal police, outraged at this the death of this beautiful half-dressed girl is determined to ensure that they have all the powers at their disposal to hunt down the killer. As the ponderous Italian regulations stipulate something must be found there, he takes something he's pretty damn sure contains the DNA of the killer and puts it there with a tool to be found by the scientifica polizia.


This planting of DNA would not be necessary. The girl was half naked...the police would have enough already to gain the expanded powers.


However at the scene everyone realizes the horror of what happened. The stress of the acute anxiety Amanda feels seeing her friend killed so quickly causes her nose to start to bleed somewhat, and she retreats to the bathroom to get some cotton balls and wash up, a drop of her blood landing on the faucet which she fails to notice as she washes the rest of the blood down the drain. Rudy, still in the murder room, gets towels from Raffaele to start a clean-up, but soon realizes it's pointless so he wipes himself down somewhat, heads to the bathroom where Amanda has just finished up, takes off his shoe and makes the bathmat print in the process.


AK had 8 holes in each ear. The blood drop can be from an ear. I like it better that AK, RS run away as they hear screams and gagging...perhaps RS looked into the room but they quickly ran.


They all feel terribly guilty, but none want to pay the price for this horrific crime so plans are made to avoid responsibility, Raffaele realizing Italian law will hold them responsible just for being there. Rudy suggests they pretend it was a break in, and says he will stage one as he leaves. He says he will leave the country, as he knows he'll leave traces everywhere, and demands money. Raffaele and Amanda go through the rest of the house while Rudy look for Meredith's purse, but in the process he gets more blood on his shoes and slips a little and catches himself causing blood to get on his hand as he goes through the purse, finding the keys first and taking them as he thinks maybe they'll come in handy, knowing that one of the keys is for the boys place downstairs and thinking maybe he'll find those plants. They also find the phones and offer them to Rudy, Amanda through Raffaele trying to tell Rudy how to access Meredith's bank, to which she knows the code but can't get it across how to get money.

Nope...I like that they ran away while Rudy took care of the details. Maybe he did try to save her after he had calmed down some.

Rudy just wants to get out of there at that point and after they all promise never to tell a soul he exits at a run headed for the woods to cover his retreat, and then remembers he said he'd stage a break-in and climbs up, opens the outer shutter which isn't completely closed, throws a rock through the window and departs posthaste, forgetting to open the window. It occurs to him to attempt to establish an alibi, which he does by going straight to the disco still with the hastily cleaned up blood on him which will start to reek, mixed with his especially pungent sweat from the massive anxiety of the murder.


Someone definitely picked glass from the window and laid it on the window sill. The photos show it to be an impossible random issue where these pieces from the border are laying in a pile on the ledge. And the rock had to come from outside in.

Amanda and Raffaele go over the place quickly, Amanda hearing the rock go through the window goes into Filomena's room and notices the window wasn't opened, and does so, getting glass on a shoe which she stops to take off when she hears it crunch, where she causes the glop, something of Meredith's that Rudy had tracked around and gotten on the top of her shoe falls to the floor in Filomena's room as well as her DNA.

Raffaele can't help himself, he carefully enters Meredith's room, he has to see what happened, and he dodges Rudy's shoeprints and approaches the body which he reaches out to touch, getting close enough something ends up on the bra-clasp before he realizes what a bad idea it was as it will be with him the rest of his life and he just as carefully retreats meeting Amanda at the door, who unbeknowenst has a glass shard which will end up in the doorway and later tracked in by the postal policeman who lied about entering.

They both just want to get the hell out of there at this point, traumatized by the whole ordeal, thus they leave, and return to Raffaele's, it only being 10:00 at this point, having spent only twenty minutes total in the cottage. Meredith, who'd been stabbed a mere five minutes into the fracas but had gone unconscious quickly due to trauma and blood loss, dies; Raffaele and Amanda not having realized she'd been technically alive the past fifteen minutes, after all in the movies it's instantaneous practically.

Amanda's autonomic nervous system, frazzled from the ups and downs of the night, starts to bottom out, causing her to want sleep which she does after being comforted by Raffaele, who cannot sleep and won't until early morning, spending it on the computer to distract his mind from the view of the body which Amanda had not witnessed. He finally sleeps early in the morning, with the aid of Filomena's hash which he'd pocketed when going through the place, having forgotten to actually take anything besides, which he realizes at this moment, rationalizing that at least he wasn't a thief and didn't actually have much responsibility for the murder.

Amanda wakes first the next day in horror, realizing it wasn't a dream. She returns to the cottage to see if the murder was discovered, and starts to plan out the story. Realizing no one has noticed yet, and that Raffaele had wisely locked the door to Meredith's room, she decides to take a shower to make sure she doesn't have anything on her body that might have adhered during the brief struggle she had with Meredith, and to try to scrub away the horrific guilt she feels. She exits the shower not realizing Raffaele had taken the towels, and she accidentally steps in highly diluted blood which pooled on the floor near the bathmat. She returns to her room, pausing at Meredith's door as she breaks into tears, eventually composing herself and trying to figure out what to do.


No AK would never return alone. And she did not take a shower. Simply not necessary for the story. In fact a common guilter theme is that AK looks un-showered.

She returns to Raffaele's, and they decide to pretend to discover the murder, making all the necessary phone calls. As she contemplates facing the police, hysteria starts to mount and she asks Raffaele to get her damned lamp, and Raffaele thinking she's being silly doesn't try very hard and then decides to get her out of the cottage. The postal police arrive unexpectedly, and Massei takes over from here.

Amanda feels terrible guilt so she's torn between helping and obstructing, causing her take the police right to Rudy's feces and other traces, but temporizing when the door is about to be opened, which Filomena will notice. Amanda's conscience and kind of offbeat personality causes her to willingly subject herself to constant police presence, during which time she starts to raise suspicion in the officers. She tries too hard and overdoes it. Giobbi is not quite as clueless as he comes across, it's not so much the hip-wiggling and her breaking down with the knives but just something about the way she is when it happens. That causes him to wonder even more when she's out getting pizza, as she acts even more differently away from the police. Napoleoni and Mignini pick up on it as well.

Raffaele can't get that view of the body out of his mind, he starts to smoke even more hash that normal, culminating in him being so stoned he forgets he has his knife on when summoned to the police station on the fifth, which doesn't cause him the panic it should have. Amanda thinks she's got everyone fooled, though privately she's a mess as she feels horrific about the whole ordeal, causing even more erratic behavior which the cops are noticing even more, and she detects Raffaele's detachment as she knows she got him into this mess and she dares not let him out of her sight, so she goes into the police station on the fifth of her own accord, Raffaele being so out of it and realizing she's attached to his hip he doesn't even bother to tell her she was summoned too.

Raffaele enters the police station and quickly realizes in his fogged state he cannot endure interrogation. He starts to get angry, thinking it was mostly Amanda who got him into this mess, so he tells the police a 'load of crap' so they'll go bother her about it. The police start slowly with Amanda, who feigns more difficulty than she should with Italian, puzzling the officers as they'd been able to communicate better in previous unmoderated encounters. Thus they then summon a translator who arrives at 12:30 and they then put the screws to her.

They have their eye on Patrick, mainly because of the text she 'forgot' to tell them about and other errors and coincidences they've picked up. Amanda breaks within the hour, giving them what they want, but not willing to give them much more because she feels terrible about doing that too. They keep after her and she resists better now, having succumbed she won't extrapolate much further.

Thinking they've solved the crime and have the murderers and will find the physical evidence at the scene, the police don't press her as hard as they should. Soon after she's arrested she realizes she's been played, and also feels terrible about giving them Patrick, thus she writes her 'gift' note, trying to recant her confession. As she was actually guilty the threat of them having 'hard evidence' making her capitulation much quicker.

In prison they both figure they can get away with lying about it as they weren't actually physically involved in the murder much, but despite their togetherness after the murder and before the arrest they have grown apart emotionally. Both try in their diaries to hint the other might have been involved, before realizing that would likely end up with the other also turning on them. Thus after feigning suspicion of the other they soon realize it would be best to pretend they've come to the conclusion they don't suspect each other.

Rudy feels grave remorse as well due to the fact he's the one who physically did the deed, and doesn't want the others to suffer for his crime. Though to spare himself some prison time he does kinda implicate them both, but he never gives the prosecution what it really wants.

Just off the top of my head, I'm sure I missed a number of things, tear it up guys. :)

Well, working backwards...Rudy sang like a canary once he got his story straight with the prosecutor.

And if you have AK, RS running away sooner rather than later then Toto can come in as they hover there to watch if RG had left yet. Then they were interrupted by the broken down car.
I love the lamp being worked in…I always question the lamp.
You left out the big knife.
And you are stretching the bra clasp DNA
I have an issue that AK had plans to work

Other than that Id say we could make them guilty. But not of murder.

BTW...I don’t think OJ is guilty of murder either...but he is definitely guilty of obstruction. Jason killed Ron and Nicole. OJ rushed over and saw what he had done and freaked. While tracking thru the blood in his Bruno Maglies
 
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Well, working backwards...Rudy sang like a canary once he got his story straight with the prosecutor.

And if you have AK, RS running away sooner rather than later then Toto can come in as they hover there to watch if RG had left yet. Then they were interrupted by the broken down car.
I love the lamp being worked in…I always question the lamp.
You left out the big knife.
And you are stretching the bra clasp DNA

Other than that Id say we could make them guilty. But not of murder.

BTW...I don’t think OJ is guilty of murder either...but he is definitely guilty of obstruction. Jason killed Ron and Nicole. OJ rushed over and saw what he had done and freaked. While tracking thru the blood in his Bruno Maglies

Randy, when you put your reply inside my post I can't quote it. :)

Regarding OJ I assume he's guilty but never looked into it. I spent maybe a month or two following it, figured he was guilty and then tried to avoid all news of it, which was difficult considering the pervasive nature of the news. I brought that up in the other thread not because I thought all the DNA evidence was iffy, just that they added some that was. In Italy it seems they convict with just the iffy stuff sometimes.

That knife never left the drawer, and I won't put it into a scenario because it absolutely invalidates it in my mind. Good point re the state of Meredith's undress, to be honest I never looked that closely into that part. I know Ron Hendry is a professional and did a reconstruction with one attacker which survives scrutiny, I understand the global perspective produced by Steve Moore, and I know Massei allows that one attacker is possible, and that his reconstruction is totally made of whole cloth--like mine would have been thus I skipped it. I just won't put Raffaele or Amanda in that room during a death struggle without any evidence of their presence. The bra clasp touch is just because it's still possible and it helps explain Raffaele being up all night with Amanda going to bed, to explain the computer activity.

As for the 'evidence' I simply had to try to fit as much in. The only reason I really posted it was the Kobayashi Maru maneuver I pulled on the time of the meal and the rape, as I was hoping for some discussion of them, and to see if I could build a believable narrative explaining the behavior which is something notably missing from most guilt theories. Thus I employed lower probability scenarios of the discovery, police suspicion (Giobbi probably is clueless) and interrogation and tried to account for none of them giving each other up which is kinda odd if they were all there considering what they went through. Rudy never really did provide a damning indictment of Amanda and Raffaele, he kinda said maybe, which strikes me as odd even if they weren't there, let alone if he could actually share guilt with someone who was.

The CCTV of the man might not be Rudy, it is disputed and I can't tell on my monitor anyway. If it was, perhaps Rudy had been hanging around a bit before Raffaele and Amanda got there. As for some details I can rely on police disturbing the scene and blundering through like blind elephants because that's something that cannot be rationally contested in my view. :p

The DNA plant comes from something I read that said something had to be found there to allow the police the extra powers, and considering the big deal they kept making on that issue throughout the 'investigation' I thought that at least possible.
 
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Massei [106] SURVEY AND EVALUATION OF THE FORENSIC RESULTS

At the hearing of July 3, 2009, Dr. Lalli ... He stated that the results of the toxicological analyses revealed the absence of psychotropic drugs​

Doesn't that rule out Meredith toking it up with her english friends that night?
 
Massei [106] SURVEY AND EVALUATION OF THE FORENSIC RESULTS

At the hearing of July 3, 2009, Dr. Lalli ... He stated that the results of the toxicological analyses revealed the absence of psychotropic drugs​

Doesn't that rule out Meredith toking it up with her english friends that night?

Hmm.

How about we get Ronchi or someone to speculate that Lalli might have done the test wrong, and then dismiss Lalli's result purely on the basis of that speculation? Can we do that, even if we have evidence in hand to show that he did the test right?

As long as nobody reads the Motivations with a critical eye we might even get away with it...

:)
 
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Hmm.

How about we get Ronchi or someone to speculate that Lalli might have done the test wrong, and then dismiss Lalli's result purely on the basis of that speculation? Can we do that, even if we have evidence in hand to show that he did the test right?

As long as nobody reads the Motivations with a critical eye we might even get away with it...

:)

Well it was Lalli who at one point found MK blood alcohol level to be at a toxic level. Then they just decided that it must have been lab contamination. The prosecutor did fire Lalli. But I think it was because Mignini did not like what Lalli would testify. He claims it was because Lalli said something to the press. If that were true I guess he should have fired everyone including himself.

OJ's DNA was solid against him. There were 4 different sites (the scene, the gate, the bronco, his house) and many traces were RFLP which was good for like one in a billion. On those DNA traces the defense claimed police planting. All the PCR traces were doubtful because they found a scientist who said so. And in 1994 PCR was very new. It was all enough for reasonable doubt. OJ son Jason killed the couple. He is a nutty traveling professional chef who carries his knife set in his Jeep. He attacked his girlfriend and he also hated Nicole for what was doing to his dad. OJ came to the scene...thats where all the traces came from. Watch the reading of the verdict and pay attention to Jasons face as it is read. That look is priceless.
 
Duke lacrosse and the blue wall of silence CT

There is another way in which the Knox/Sollecito case parallels the Duke lacrosse case. When the allegations surfaced District Attorney Michael Nifong accused the players of hiding behind a “blue wall of silence.” Pundits such as Allan Gurganous and columnists such as Ruth Sheehan bought into the idea that the team was not cooperating. Sheehan’s opening was as memorable as it was easily parodied: “You know. We know you know.”

Even I wrote a silly little parody of Sheehan’s article on a slow Saturday afternoon, and with good reason. DA Nifong essentially posited a conspiracy of over forty young men to hush up a rape, most of whom would have to have been lacrosse players. One thing that the members of the lacrosse team was never accused of was lacking a desire to succeed. Why would all of them jeopardize their futures by not naming the actual perpetrators? The reality was much different from Nifong's conspiracy theory. The team was very cooperative with the investigators; with the example of the Knox/Sollecito case we might now say cooperative to the point of being a little too trusting. We now know that beyond the DNA evidence, that two of the players had unimpeachable alibis. Ruth Sheehan wrote a memorable apology.

Which is more ridiculous, the idea that over forty people would cover up a gang rape or that three people, two of whom barely knew the third, would team up for a rape/murder? I report, you decide.
 
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It's an 8.2 on the Risibility scale

Actually both conspiracies are more ridiculous than I implied. With respect to Duke, you couldn't get 46 mafia wise guys not to rat each other out, let alone 46 lacrosse players, if a rape had actually occurred. In this case, we have to believe that Knox, whose Italian was rudimentary, could even communicate effectively with Guede, whose English was nonexistent, let alone convince him to take part in a sex game gone wrong.
 
Actually both conspiracies are more ridiculous than I implied. With respect to Duke, you couldn't get 46 mafia wise guys not to rat each other out, let alone 46 lacrosse players, if a rape had actually occurred. In this case, we have to believe that Knox, whose Italian was rudimentary, could even communicate effectively with Guede, whose English was nonexistent, let alone convince him to take part in a sex game gone wrong.

Clearly Foxy Knoxy used her foxiness to hypnotise Raffaele, who did speak Italian, and then Raffaele hypnotised Rudy using his fluent Italian.

Besides, a hip-swivel is the universal signal for "come home with me and I'll help you murder my housemate and rape her while she dies". She didn't need to speak Italian to communicate that.
 
Clearly Foxy Knoxy used her foxiness to hypnotise Raffaele, who did speak Italian, and then Raffaele hypnotised Rudy using his fluent Italian.

Besides, a hip-swivel is the universal signal for "come home with me and I'll help you murder my housemate and rape her while she dies". She didn't need to speak Italian to communicate that.


You left out the part that the cartwheel is actually the secret satanic symbol. See that Mignini is no dope.

Do you know there is a book that claims Kato is the killer rather than OJ?
Another book makes a darn good case that Jason Simpson is the killer.
Both books have OJ visiting the scene after the killings.
 
What bothered me most about the OJ case was that the only sites that seamed to be archiving evidence were the hate sites like we see in PMF and TJMK. Why is it that hate is a better motivator than seeking justice?
 
excellent question

What bothered me most about the OJ case was that the only sites that seamed to be archiving evidence were the hate sites like we see in PMF and TJMK. Why is it that hate is a better motivator than seeking justice?
Dan O.

If there were an award for best question asked about this case, I would nominate yours.
 
I am wondering with the appeal hearing on the DNA starting this coming Monday if we will hear anything about a new prosecution (conspiracy) theory? Here is what Mignini had to say in the Graham interview:

"Guardi che il delitto... teoricamente Amanda poteva averlo anche istigato, teoricamente, stando .... se lei mi dice non... non si trova... il delitto uno potrebbe averlo fatto anche stando nell'altro stanza, eh... cioè Sollecito....Sollecito è Raffaele."

"Look, the crime... theoretically Amanda could even have instigated it, theoretically, from ... if you tell me she wasn't ... she wasn't.....one could have done the crime even from another room, um... that is Sollecito.... Sollecito is Raffaele."

I am quite happy to hear that Mignono has finally come to the understanding that Raffaele is Sollecito. So how does this new theory fit the (remaining) evidence?
 

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