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Global thermonuclear war: still a risk?

nvidiot

Botanical Jedi
Joined
Apr 30, 2010
Messages
2,121
Just an idle thought while I trek home: is it still a distinct and realistic risk that humanity could have a nuclear war? Not just a tactical use of them, in a battlefield situation, but a global exchange a la war games etc.

Are we more or less at risk of such a conflagration leading to a massive nuclear exchange nowadays? Has the breakup of the USSR and the rise of capitalism in China resigned the idea of using ICBM weapons in a war of agression or defense to the "What are you, crazy?" bin?

If there are no (or very very few) situations where these weapons are likely to be used , why do we even have them anymore?
 
In the long term, there is still a high risk.
Or perhaps, an unknown risk, which could be a high risk.

I don't think there is a high short-term risk. But that is only the short-term.
 
The only nation besides ourselves with sufficient warheads and delivery systems would be Russia, to my knowledge. Although there is some degree of parity in terms of sheer numbers of warheads, I believe that the Russian delivery systems have fallen far behind after the collapse of the Soviet Union.
I understand the missile-launching submarine fleet is considerably impaired, for instance.

Right now, I believe it's the case that a single one of our ballistic-missile submarines could cripple any nation on Earth.
 
It doesn't have to be global to be a serious issue.

SCIAM (or was it Atlantic?) presented and article a year or two ago about the global effects of a nuclear exchange between India and Pakistan, and the knock on effects of that across the globe thanks to weather patterns moving dust and stuff all over.

Chilling, and of lethal impact well beyond radiation. Probably another billion killed, maybe more, outside conflict zone, and some serious climate and food supply outcomes.

EDIT: I think I posted a link to that article a little while after it came out. If I can figure out where it is, I'll provide a link.

EDIT 2

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=local-nuclear-war

It is a very good read.

Their summary.

Nuclear bombs dropped on cities and industrial areas in a fight between India and Pakistan would start firestorms that would put massive amounts of smoke into the upper atmosphere.

The particles would remain there for years, blocking the sun, making the earth’s surface cold, dark and dry. Agricultural collapse and mass starvation could follow. Hence, global cooling could result from a regional war, not just a conflict between the U.S. and Russia.

Cooling scenarios are based on computer models. But observations of volcanic eruptions, forest fire smoke and other phenomena provide confidence that the models are correct.
 
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Yeah, I would think that Pakistan and India is the most likely flashpoint for a nuclear exchange and Pakistan has recently been thought to be increasing the number of its nukes. The two countries are in a state of cold war.

That said I am not sure if either of them actually possess thermonuclear weapons. Apparently India may have them but it's not completely certain.
 
the risk of a world-wide nuclear war, is almost non-existant.

the risk of a regional nuclear war, such as between India & Pakistan, North Korean & Japan, Iran & Israel, is still a real risk.

but if you're talking about a world-ending nuclear Holocaust, I think that risk is almost gone. Thanks in part to Reagan, Gorby, Bush 1, Obama, and Medvedev.
 
If Iran gets the bomb most definately.

Why most definitely? Can you show us your train of thought, from "Iran has a nuke" to "the nuclear superpowers initiate a full-scale nuclear exchange"?

It seems to me that even if Iran were to detonate a nuke in anger, the most likely result would be "regional conventional war against Iran, and the worst-case scenario would be "limited nuclear exchange with Iran".

But "global thermonuclear war" over Iran having the bomb? Most definitely not.
 
Why most definitely? Can you show us your train of thought, from "Iran has a nuke" to "the nuclear superpowers initiate a full-scale nuclear exchange"?

its called "Neo-Conservative" propaganda.

Iran having one single nuclear weapon, will bring the world to a nuclear Holocaust.

;)
 
I bow to Darth's superior knowledge on this. Best answer.

As others have said, I think the more likely outcome is war between some nations in central Asia, rather than a cataclysmic world war between the United States and China and/or Russia.
 
I think there is still a scenario that could lead us to nuclear war with Russia.

We have managed to avoid it so far, but I'm still a touch concerned--and that is the matter of anti missile defense systems. We have a particular issue in Poland, advancements and deployments in that area have already caused some friction. Any system that Russia perceives as weakening its own nuclear deterrent could lead them to a response. Rather than engage in technological countermeasures that they probably don't have the ability to keep up, I suspect they would respond by trying to increase their arsenal enough to overwhelm any strategic defense. This would lead to a response from us of further development of countermeasures and increasing our own arsenal at the same time. Before you know it there's another arms race and a Cold War kind of comes along with it.

I think we really aren't trying to provoke Russia, nor are we trying to become a threat to their sovereignty... but that won't help if they perceive it that way, or even if they believe that will be the outcome regardless of our intent. Their government may be afraid of becoming irrelevant in the nuclear playing field, and it will be difficult to get them to swallow that.

The ideal scenario is something participatory, but it's been a tough sell also.
 
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WTF are they going to do with a bomb. They mullahs might be mad, but they can't stop MAD. We are still liable to any country owning a bomb going nuts one day.

The MAD concept assumes that both sides are rational and actively want to avoid death. This is not necessarily a given with Iran, and much less a given for the kinds of people that Iran might, possibly, give nukes to if they had them.
 
The only nation besides ourselves with sufficient warheads and delivery systems would be Russia, to my knowledge.
That's true, but not entirely correct.

The American stockpile of nuclear weapons peaked at more than 30,000 in 1966. If a superpower could do it 45 years ago, then major powers can do it today. Countries like Britain, France, Germany, Russia, China, India and Japan could each develop massive nuclear arsenals in the space of a few years - if they wanted to.

Although there is some degree of parity in terms of sheer numbers of warheads, I believe that the Russian delivery systems have fallen far behind after the collapse of the Soviet Union.
There is no need for parity. All you need is a sufficient number of weapons to exterminate the enemy's large cities, taking into account losses from a first strike and missile defense.
The first can be reduced by using mobile or submarine launched missiles, the second is a joke against any serious strike.

Just an idle thought while I trek home: is it still a distinct and realistic risk that humanity could have a nuclear war? Not just a tactical use of them, in a battlefield situation, but a global exchange a la war games etc.
Any large scale war between major powers will be decided by nuclear weapons, or the threat of them. Which is why the US and Soviet Union had the good sense to never let the Cold War turn hot. They would both have lost.

It's a paradigm shift. WWII and all large scale wars before it were decided by which side could field the most military power - in quantity and/or quality.
But nuclear weapons change the equation. It's no longer important to have more than your enemy, they're so powerful that you merely need to have enough of them to destroy the enemy completely.

It worries me when Pentagon-spending is justified by citing the possibility of war with China. That feeds the illusion such a war could be decided by conventional weapons.

Rather than engage in technological countermeasures that they probably don't have the ability to keep up, I suspect they would respond by trying to increase their arsenal enough to overwhelm any strategic defense.
Missile defense against a serious nuclear strike is a joke.

Mid-course a ballistic missile splits into multiple warheads, and/or releases decoys - aluminum balloons with a small battery inside to produce an infrared signature. Such decoys are completely indistinguishable from the real warheads until they re-enter the atmosphere, and they can number up to a hundred. So for a mid-course intercept you need to attack each target, with an interceptor that is comparable in cost to a ballistic missile. That's doable only against a very small strike.

In the terminal phase ballistic missile's warheads move extremely fast, so they can only be intercepted by interceptors stationed near their target area. That means each target area requires its own extensive network of radar systems and missile launchers. That's doable to defend a small number of high-valued targets, but impossible to defend large civilian areas.

Additionally, as far as I'm aware missile defense systems have so far only been tested against individual, 'cooperative' ballistic missiles. Their reliability against a real attack, even a small one, is highly suspect.

And Russia has already developed a missile to solve the problem:
The SS-27 is currently portrayed by Russian accounts as being immune to any ABM defense the United States can put into being. The missile is capable of making evasive maneuvers as it approaches its target, enabling it to evade any terminal phase interceptors. It almost certainly also carries countermeasures and decoys to decrease the chances of a successful targeting. The missile is shielded against radiation, electromagnetic interference and physical disturbance; [...] the SS-27 is designed to be able to withstand nuclear blasts closer than 500 m, a difficult interception when combined with the terminal phase speed and maneuverability. [...] And the SS-27 is also designed to survive a strike from any laser technology available, rendering any current space-based laser useless.

In my opinion Russia took the sane decision. It's much easier to develop a ballistic missile to overcome a ballisitic missile defense, than it is to develop said defense.
 
The MAD concept assumes that both sides are rational and actively want to avoid death. This is not necessarily a given with Iran, and much less a given for the kinds of people that Iran might, possibly, give nukes to if they had them.
The nuclear deterrent worked against Stalin and Mao, even though both of them also posessed nukes.

Concerning the value of human life or rationality, I don't think the Iranian mullahs are worse than those two.
 
the risk of a regional nuclear war, such as between India & Pakistan, North Korean & Japan, Iran & Israel, is still a real risk.

The American stockpile of nuclear weapons peaked at more than 30,000 in 1966. If a superpower could do it 45 years ago, then major powers can do it today. Countries like Britain, France, Germany, Russia, China, India and Japan could each develop massive nuclear arsenals in the space of a few years - if they wanted to.

Interesting that Japan's been mentioned twice.

Given the secrecy that surrounds the development of these weapons, and the obvious sensitivity within Japan wrt having them in their arsenal, does anyone have a (speculative) idea what the extent of Japan's capability is? Eg, they'd have to start completely from scratch, or they have done some theoretical development and could manufacture the components in a couple of years, etc, etc?
 
Interesting that Japan's been mentioned twice.

Given the secrecy that surrounds the development of these weapons, and the obvious sensitivity within Japan wrt having them in their arsenal, does anyone have a (speculative) idea what the extent of Japan's capability is? Eg, they'd have to start completely from scratch, or they have done some theoretical development and could manufacture the components in a couple of years, etc, etc?

My thinking is that they have all the technology to produce nuclear warheads, plenty of material to produce nuclear warheads given its very large civilian nuclear energy programme plus its nuclear enriching ability and reprocessing ability (I believe a number of countries even ship their waste to Japan for treatment) plus they have a delivery system with its rocket programme developed by JAXA.

Japan has all the knowledge, the rockets, the fuel, the ability to create nuclear warheads and probably the technology to shrink the warhead to the size capable of fitting in a nosecone of the rocket and a sophisticated guidance system.

This is one of the reasons why the IAEA spend large amounts of their resources on inspecting Japan's nuclear sites.
 

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