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General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

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Thunder said:
is this what you guys have to resort to? utter silliness and stupidity?

pathetic. Its now VERY clear who has won this debate, and its not the side that consistently feels the need to resort to strawman arguments, name-calling, personal attacks, and character assassination.

yeah folks, its looks like we are finally done here. :)
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I see you have no counter argument. About the only difference between the American occupation of Iraq and the Israeli occupation of the West Bank is the Israeli settlements in the West Bank.

Of course, if you are going to call one apartheid, and the other not, you have to show how white South African settlers tried to settle in the bantustans.
 
WildCat said:
Puerto Rico is a US territory and its residents are US citizens, but they have no voting representatives in Congress and can't even vote for federal offfices!

Apartheid!!!!!!!11!!!!!!!111!1!!!!!!!
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oh yes, we are very much done here. the losing side has clearly given up.

:p
 
Thunder said:
The situation in the West Bank is most certainly one of Apartheid, no two ways about it.

There are seperate roads for Israelis and Palestinians.

The Israeli Knesset makes decisions that effect the lives of the Palestinians on a daily basis, but the Palestinians have no right to vote for the Knesset members.

Israel has confiscated thousands of acres of Palestinian property since 1967, and used it for homes that Palestinians cannot live in.

Israel has given Permanent Residency status to Palestinians in East Jerusalem, but has covertly revoked this status from thousands of the people, which is illegal under international law.

The Israeli police are known for lending a blind eye towards violence by Israeli settlers against Palestinians and their property.

Surely, the situation in the West Bank is one of Apartheid. One highly discriminatory rule for Palestinians...with a highly favorable rule for illegal Israeli settlers.
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mortimer said:
I see you have no counter argument.
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:i:
 
Oh, it's that special definition of "apartheid", that applies only to Israel -- and not to the USA or Canada, say. Much like that special definition of "occupation" that applies only to Israel (in its relationship with Gaza), and not to, say, South Korea as an "occupier" of North Korea. Or that special definition of "religious state" that applies only to Israel, but not to England, etc.
 
bikerdruid said:
what utter silliness.
it might be because canadians don't live in the u.s.
however, the palestinians do live in israel, and still have no rights.
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Bollocks. Palestinians in the West Bank no more live in Israel than Iraqis lived in the United States from 2003-2004.

The West Bank is considered occupied or disputed territory, not Israeli territory.
 
mortimer said:
Bollocks. Palestinians in the West Bank no more live in Israel than Iraqis lived in the United States from 2003-2004.

The West Bank is considered occupied or disputed territory, not Israeli territory.
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so all of those israeli settlers in the west bank are no longer israelis?
....they have left the country?
israeli soldiers in the west bank are fighting a foreign war?
 
mortimer said:
I said no such thing. But the presence of the settlers does not change the nationality of the Palestinians.

Yes. Well, they are an occupying force.
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wow....you guys just make this stuff up as you go along....:rolleyes:
if the westbank is not in israel, the settlers have emmigrated from israel to live there.
do they go back to jerusalem to vote?
how about east jerusalem?...or gaza?.....are they not in israel too?
 
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bikerdruid said:
wow....you guys just make this stuff up as you go along....:rolleyes:
if the westbank is not in israel, the settlers have emmigrated from israel to live there.
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Yes.

bikerdruid said:
do they go back to jerusalem to vote?
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Why would they have to go to Jerusalem? Do you have to go to Ottawa to vote?

bikerdruid said:
how about east jerusalem?
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Part of Israel.

bikerdruid said:
...or gaza?
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Not part of Israel, and also Jew-free.

bikerdruid said:
.....are they not in israel too?
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Of those places only Jerusalem is part of Israel now. But in the proposed land swap some areas of the West Bank with Jewish settlements would become part of Israel, while land currently part of Israel would be given to the new Palestinian state.
 
bikerdruid said:
if the westbank is not in israel, the settlers have emmigrated from israel to live there.
do they go back to jerusalem to vote?
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They probably vote by mail, like citizens do from other countries that are not currently residing in their home countries. But maybe not...
bikerdruid said:
how about east jerusalem?...or gaza?.....are they not in israel too?
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East Jerusalem was annexed by Israel, so Israel considers it part of the country proper. Gaza? Israel withdrew from Gaza several years ago.
 
bikerdruid said:
so, mortimer and wildcat......
if the west bank is not part of israel, israeli settlers are an invading force.
....and, east jerusalem was 'annexed' by israel.....ie. 'stolen'.

it appears that israel gets to have it both ways.....
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Your premise is incorrect. The land was captured when Egypt and Jordan, the countries it belonged to at the time, launched a war against Israel with the goal of destroying Israel. It didn't work out as planned, and Israel captured the West Bank and Gaza and the Sinai. Then rather than negotiate a peace treaty with stinkin' Jews Jordan gave up their claim to the West Bank. Egypt decided it didn't want anything to do with the Palestinians and gave up Gaza, and got back the Sinai when they signed a peace deal with Israel.

So Israel was sitting there on land it captured but which no country claimed. They annexed Jerusalem while allowing settlements on other parts of the WB. It's quite a bit more complicated than your oversimplistic generalization.
 
WildCat said:
Your premise is incorrect. The land was captured when Egypt and Jordan, the countries it belonged to at the time, launched a war against Israel with the goal of destroying Israel. It didn't work out as planned, and Israel captured the West Bank and Gaza and the Sinai. Then rather than negotiate a peace treaty with stinkin' Jews Jordan gave up their claim to the West Bank. Egypt decided it didn't want anything to do with the Palestinians and gave up Gaza, and got back the Sinai when they signed a peace deal with Israel.

So Israel was sitting there on land it captured but which no country claimed. They annexed Jerusalem while allowing settlements on other parts of the WB. It's quite a bit more complicated than your oversimplistic generalization.
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when a city annexes land for expansion, they pay the owners a fair market value for their homes and land.
were the misplaced palestinians payed a fair value for their homes and land?
if not.....then it is stolen.
 
bikerdruid said:
when a city annexes land for expansion, they pay the owners a fair market value for their homes and land.
were the misplaced palestinians payed a fair value for their homes and land?
if not.....then it is stolen.
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The price Israel paid was the lives of its soldiers and civilians lost through the attacking Arab armies.

What price do you put on that bikerdruid?

eta: don't you think the Arab states responsible for starting the war bear the responsibility of compensating the victims?
 
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WildCat said:
Your premise is incorrect. The land was captured when Egypt and Jordan, the countries it belonged to at the time, launched a war against Israel with the goal of destroying Israel.
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historical revisionism at its finest.

IHR would be proud. what's next, the 750,000 Arab refugees were all armed combatants?
 
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