General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

[Thunder]

not that there is much point in asking but are you claiming that every right that Jews have in Israel...arabs have the same right? That they are equal in rights in the state of Israel?

honestly, I think its reached the point with several JREF members, that denying discrimination against Arabs in Israel and Palestinians in the West Bank, is just trolling.

 

[mortimer]

wrong:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_of_apartheid#Allegations_of_apartheid_in_Israel_and_the_occupied_territories

Such accusations have recently been picked up in documents of the United Nations. In a 2007 report, United Nations Special Rapporteur for Palestine John Dugard stated that "elements of the Israeli occupation constitute forms of colonialism and of apartheid, which are contrary to international law" and suggested that the "legal consequences of a prolonged occupation with features of colonialism and apartheid" be put to the International Court of Justice.[20]

South Africa's statutory research agency the Human Sciences Research Council (HSRC) stated in a 2009 report that "the State of Israel exercises control in the [Occupied Palestinian Territories] with the purpose of maintaining a system of domination by Jews over Palestinians and that this system constitutes a breach of the prohibition of apartheid."[21] Based on these findings, Richard Falk, the successor of John Dugard as UN Special Rapporteur for Palestine has detailed some of the indicators of apartheid in the occupied territories....


the article includes many examples of ethnic & religious discrimination that takes place in Israel & the West Bank, which makes the accusation of Apartheid, one with serious evidence backing it up.

Right:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_of_apartheid

The crime of apartheid is defined by the 2002 Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court as inhumane acts of a character similar to other crimes against humanity "committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime."

You see, apartheid has a legal definition in the ICC. One that does not fit the situation in the West Bank.

That others want to water down the legal definition and apply it to Israel does not change the facts.

 

[mortimer]

biker,

Do you have any further response to my claim that Canada fits your definition of an apartheid state, now that you've been shown that Muslims in Canada do not have the same constitutional rights as Catholics and Protestants?

 

[bikerdruid]

biker,

Do you have any further response to my claim that Canada fits your definition of an apartheid state, now that you've been shown that Muslims in Canada do not have the same constitutional rights as Catholics and Protestants?

i do not believe that is true.
all minorities have the right to educate their kids in private schools.
all are welcome in public schools.
muslims have exactly the same rights as any other canadian.

 

[Thunder]

That others want to water down the legal definition and apply it to Israel does not change the facts.

ah, I see now.

so because the Palestinians are not a RACIAL group, discrimination against them cannot be classified as Apartheid.

because the Arabs and Muslims are just an ethnicity and religion, but not an actual RACE blatant discrimination against them or any other ethnicity cannot be considered Apartheid.

very clever.


The fact is, that the word "Apartheid" has become synonymous with a de jure government system of discrimination against racial, ethnic, national, or religious groups. The term has evolved past simply referring to discrimination against "racial" groups.


..but if you wish, we can call it "Apartheid-like" or "Apartheidism" or simply use the Hebrew word, Hafrada.

 

[mortimer]

i do not believe that is true.
all minorities have the right to educate their kids in private schools.
all are welcome in public schools.
muslims have exactly the same rights as any other canadian.

Did you read the link I provided? I am not discussing private or parochial schools, but separate schools, funded by the government. Your government funds schools specifically for Catholics or (rarely) Protestants. Muslims cannot get a publicly funded Muslim school. In addition, these schools can choose to hire only Catholic (or in the case of the rare Protestant separate school, Protestant) employees.

Muslims do not have any of these rights. And these rights, for Catholics and Protestants only, are enshrined in your Constitution.

 

[bikerdruid]

Did you read the link I provided? I am not discussing private or parochial schools, but separate schools, funded by the government. Your government funds schools specifically for Catholics or (rarely) Protestants. Muslims cannot get a publicly funded Muslim school. In addition, these schools can choose to hire only Catholic (or in the case of the rare Protestant separate school, Protestant) employees.

Muslims do not have any of these rights. And these rights, for Catholics and Protestants only, are enshrined in your Constitution.

education i not a federal matter.
each province hads different education systems and acts of legislature.
there is nothing of the kind 'enshrined' in canada's constitution.

 

[Thunder]

Yes. I posted a link earlier. But I'll post it again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separate_school

I have a little less respect for Canada and Canadians, after reading this link.

 

[JudeBrando]

If the Palestinian/Muslim/Arabs put down their weapons, there would be no conflict.

If the Israeli Jews put down their weapons, there would be no Israel.

Ultimately, it is that simple, but some refuse to see.

 

[mortimer]

ah, I see now.

so because the Palestinians are not a RACIAL group, discrimination against them cannot be classified as Apartheid.

I think you are starting to understand.

because the Arabs and Muslims are just an ethnicity and religion, but not an actual RACE blatant discrimination against them or any other ethnicity cannot be considered Apartheid.

Why are you talking about Arabs and Muslims? Certainly Palestinians are predominantly Arab and Muslim (huh, imagine that! wonder why that would be?), but if Israel were truly practicing apartheid, Arab Israelis would also fall under the same restrictions that Palestinian Arabs are facing.

...tell us, Mortimer: do you consider the Nuremberg Laws to have been a system of Apartheid, or similar to Apartheid?

Why do you ask? IANAL so I don't know how the Nuremberg Laws match up with the legal definition of apartheid.

 

[mortimer]

education i not a federal matter.
each province hads different education systems and acts of legislature.
there is nothing of the kind 'enshrined' in canada's constitution.

So, first, you still haven't read the link about Separate School, have you? Second, it certainly is enshrined in your Constitution.

93. In and for each Province the Legislature may exclusively make Laws in relation to Education, subject and according to the following Provisions:--

(1) Nothing in any such Law shall prejudicially affect any Right or Privilege with respect to Denominational Schools which any Class of Persons have by Law in the Province at the Union:

(2) All the Powers, Privileges and Duties at the Union by Law conferred and imposed in Upper Canada on the Separate Schools and School Trustees of the Queen's Roman Catholic Subjects shall be and the same are hereby extended to the Dissentient Schools of the Queen's Protestant and Roman Catholic Subjects in Quebec:

(3) Where in any Province a System of Separate or Dissentient Schools exists by Law at the Union or is thereafter established by the Legislature of the Province, an Appeal shall lie to the Governor General in Council from any Act or Decision of any Provincial Authority affecting any Right or Privilege of the Protestant or Roman Catholic Minority of the Queen's Subjects in relation to Education:

(4) In case any such Provincial Law as from Time to Time seems to the Governor General in Council requisite for the Execution of the Provisions of this Section is not made, or in case any Decision of the Governor General in Council on any Appeal under this Section is not duly executed by the proper Provincial Authority in that Behalf, then and in every such Case, and as far as the Circumstances of each Case require, the Parliament of Canada may make remedial Laws for the due Execution of the Provisions of this Section and of any Decision of the Governor General in Council under this Section.(50)

http://www.solon.org/Constitutions/Canada/English/ca_1867.html

 

[bikerdruid]

So, first, you still haven't read the link about Separate School, have you? Second, it certainly is enshrined in your Constitution.


http://www.solon.org/Constitutions/Canada/English/ca_1867.html

what you are quoting is not the constitution of canada. it is the british north america act of 1867, which is an act of british parliament.
the current constitution of canada dates from 1982, and is an act of canadian parliament.

 

[The Fool]

If the Palestinian/Muslim/Arabs put down their weapons, there would be no conflict.

If the Israeli Jews put down their weapons, there would be no Israel.

Ultimately, it is that simple, but some refuse to see.

mate....we fully understand that you think its simple.

what we need on this forum is more rational discussion and less slogan chanting.

 

[mortimer]

what you are quoting is not the constitution of canada. it is the british north america act of 1867, which is an act of british parliament.
the current constitution of canada dates from 1982, and is an act of canadian parliament.

But it is still in effect. There are STILL separate schools in some provinces of Canada, legal because of the Constitution Act of 1867, that provides public financing of Catholic (and rarely Protestant) schools. Muslims need not apply. Are you disputing this fact? Are you disputing that this is apartheid according to your own definition? Or does your definition only apply to Israel?

 

[Thunder]

If the Palestinian/Muslim/Arabs put down their weapons, there would be no conflict.

...or Israel would annex the West Bank and force the native Muslims/Arabs to live like second-class citizens.

oh..right. they already do.






If Israel had their way, they would indeed annex the WB, and declare that the Palestinians have political rights in Jordan, and do not now nor will they ever have political rights in Israel.

Israel would also offer the Palestinians money to GTFO...and if they thought they would get away with it, they would put them all on trains and ship them East. ironic huh?

 

[bikerdruid]

But it is still in effect. There are STILL separate schools in some provinces of Canada, legal because of the Constitution Act of 1867, that provides public financing of Catholic (and rarely Protestant) schools. Muslims need not apply. Are you disputing this fact? Are you disputing that this is apartheid according to your own definition? Or does your definition only apply to Israel?

are you now claiming to be an expert on canadian constitutional law?
the bna act of 1867 is obsolete, dead, irrelevant.

there is public funding for every student in canada.
in alberta, the per student grant follows the student to any school they choose.
therefore, students in muslim, jewish, christian, catholic and public schools receive public dollars.

maybe you would like to get back on topic.
thunder explained the problem very well.

 

[JudeBrando]

mate....we fully understand that you think its simple.
what we need on this forum is more rational discussion and less slogan chanting.

Do you think the Israel/Palestine and/or Israel/Middle East conflict, or its status here on this board, is because of any yet insufficient but cumulative amount of rational discussion?

What "slogan chanting"? Is that how you seek to summarily and simply dismiss and avoid the distilled and simple truth of the matter?

 

[Thunder]

What "slogan chanting"? Is that how you seek to summarily and simply dismiss and avoid the distilled and simple truth of the matter?

contrary to your posts, the simple truth of the matter is not that:

Palestinians=bad, evil, racist, Nazis, killers, baby-eaters.

Israelis=good, loving, caring, gentle, tolerant, peaceful.

 

[WildCat]

because it is simply not true.
for one thing, they are routinely evicted from their homes and farms to make room for israeli 'settlers'.

Israeli Arabs? Got a cite?

 

[The Fool]

Do you think the Israel/Palestine and/or Israel/Middle East conflict, or its status here on this board, is because of any yet insufficient but cumulative amount of rational discussion?

What "slogan chanting"? Is that how you seek to summarily and simply dismiss and avoid the distilled and simple truth of the matter?

yes..."slogan chanting" is how I describe the repetition of simplistic solutions for complex matters.

certainly if the violence ended it would be the end of violent conflict but it would not be the end of conflict....or the problem.