Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Justinian2]

Draca just posted it above.

Mignini CNN interview pg1
And the other thing which struck us, which was of immediate interest, I said this on other occasions and I repeat it because I’ve said it also at the first trial, was the break-in. And it appeared immediately – the climbing, the simulation of climbing, with a stone thrown through the window, through two shutters that were there, that left open quite a narrow space, rather limited room between them – immediately that appeared to us to be a simulation.

I wonder how anybody could believe that was an argument of any merit. I find it hard to believe, from the quotes, that Mignini could ever have won a case. The intimidation is another matter. The Italian system is designed perfectly to allow Mignini to win by intimidation.

 

[Justinian2]

Jeez it was bad enough arguing on the same side as Justinian, but now this...?

With friends like this, who needs enemies?

I've spent a lifetime watching people suffer that don't heed my advice. It's almost a curse.

 

[Justinian2]

Well that moulded hilt is only around 1cm in height - I'd have thought that a forceful stab that hit solid internal material might very possibly still result in the had sliding down over the hilt and onto the blade. But I agree, this photo shows more of a hilt than those which I provided.

In any case, it's moot. Knox had no hand injuries (or signs of recent injuries) when she was arrested. So Knox could equally have used the knife in the murder without her hand sliding onto the blade, or she could not have used the knife in the murder at all.

I've heard of knives penetrating the thickest part of the skull with a savage blow. That Meredith's little neck could have offered any resistance at all to a knife like that is more the question.

 

[Draca]

I first learned about these meetings from the book "Darkness Descending".

While I find many mistakes in this book it does have the Chief of Scientific Investigation for the Carabinieri General Luciano Garofano as a co-author.

The meetings are described along with the participants. Stefanoni is described as the leader of these meetings. Chapter 33 Murder Reconstruction, pg 327-339

BTW Garofano calls parts of Stefanoni's work sloppy. Mostly when speaking about collection, and the use of luminol. His division was not used apparently because the postal police was called first to the scene or some such nonsense. That’s why he was able to be a co-author since his department was not used.

Thanks RandyN,

I have that book and will be reading the pages you mention.

 

[platonov]

Have you not heard !

Originally Posted by RandyN

I first learned about these meetings from the book "Darkness Descending".

While I find many mistakes in this book it does have the Chief of Scientific Investigation for the Carabinieri General Luciano Garofano as a co-author.
The meetings are described along with the participants. Stefanoni is described as the leader of these meetings. Chapter 33 Murder Reconstruction, pg 327-339

BTW Garofano calls parts of Stefanoni's work sloppy. Mostly when speaking about collection, and the use of luminol. His division was not used apparently because the postal police was called first to the scene or some such nonsense. That’s why he was able to be a co-author since his department was not used.

Thanks RandyN,

I have that book and will be reading the pages you mention.

Haven't you heard

<snip>

Colonel Garofano has no standing in this case, whatsoever.

<snip>

That's odd - I thought that would be big news ?

 

[Dan O.]

You know I think we can turn this guy...

The check is probably late again. Once it clears, e'll be back on course.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

confederates

Finally ! - despite the naysayers (I'm looking at you shuttlt) claiming that nothing could ever be agreed on this interminable thread - We have a breakthrough

Months ago I explained this at length to you halides1, even resorting to using extracts from the dreaded Massei report [that everyone has read ] and you seemed very resistant to the idea.

See Link , Link Link and a bunch of other posts in those pages.

Do I get a (stale 6 month old) cookie

Can I hope against hope that in another 6 months you will accept the point about the DNA data or will the rescheduled rapture come first.

Platonov,

I am not sure to which DNA data you refer. I never said that Colonel Garofano had formal standing in the case. Russell and Johnson engage in unalloyed puffery in introducing him in Darkness Descending. Colonel Garofano also wrote an article that appeared in the British press in November of 2010. These things give his words a depth and breath that greatly exceed their actual forensic value, which is something close to that of Confederate bonds shortly after the unpleasantness among the states, as I have taken to calling it.

From the English translation of the Massei report, page 280, “This Court also considers that the components of the mixed trace specimens were deposited simultaneously, and were deposited by Amanda.” So, despite Dr. Stefanoni’s reservation (approximately page 227), the court works its way to the specious conclusion that the DNA deposition was simultaneous. On pages 371-372 Colonel Garofano indicates that the mixed DNA samples were deposited simultaneously. Now it is true that Colonel Garofano thinks that the samples were mixed blood. However, Massei, who is in fine (dare I say even rare) form on pages 278-281, knows that he cannot do likewise, lacking support from Dr. Stefanoni. Yet he realized that as long as Amanda's DNA deposition were thought to be simultaneous to the deposition of Meredith's, the effect is still damaging to Amanda, even if the samples are not both blood. How much he was influenced by Garofano’s passages in DD I cannot say. What I can say is that Amanda might have as easily left her DNA during the day on 2 November or on 31 October as the night of 1 November.

 

[Mary_H]

They play it at Duke University I believe: I understand that they have a very robust and energetic men's lacrosse team

They play it at Amanda's high school, too.

 

[Mary_H]

I am under the impression that inexperienced knife users get cut when their hand slips forward onto the blade. Others may know more.

What people are referring to here as the hilt is actually the guard. As I understand it, it is difficult, when stabbing a person or animal, to prevent the hand from sliding onto the blade if there is no guard, regardless of experience.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

propagation

Platonov,

If I had a nickel for every time I have heard that Dr. Hampikian had no standing in this case, I would be richer than I am now. That statement about Dr. Hampikian is false, BTW. However, Colonel Garofano does not consult for the prosecution, to the best of my knowledge. The confusion he propagates is achieved in other ways.

 

[platonov]

Bird is (not) the word apparently

Platonov,

I am not sure to which DNA data you refer..........

<snip>

OK shuttlt (and others) - I withdraw my earlier comment and apologise.

No cookie for me.

Despite posting links to halides1's own words/posts this is the response - so much for straight answers.

ps halides1 - After my quoting Massei to show your argument was nonsense (6 mths ago) you now quote it back at me.

Very good

 

[RWVBWL]

Mignini and Comodi

<snip>
And even though the latter question isn't directed at me, yes: I think Mignini intended to imply that Knox's neck "wound" was related to the murder, and that Knox herself was trying to conceal it. His use of the phrase "Amanda kept herself covered" clearly (to me) implies - by Mignini - a conscious attempt by Knox to cover her neck, rather than the implication that Knox just happened to be wearing clothing that concealed the mark. And of course the fact that Mignini even argues that Knox "kept herself covered", when clear photographic and video testimony of her outside the cottage the day after the murder shows exactly the opposite, indicates to me that Mignini's trying to spin this issue.

(hilite mine)

Hi LondonJohn and others,
Reading that Mignini believes Amanda keep herself covered, when photographic proff shows otherwise kinda reminds me of Comodi stating in court that Amanda called her Mom at 3:00am in the morning, when in reality Amanda called her Mom at 4:47am, nearly 2 hours later.

I would think that these 2 should know better.
Hmmm...
RW

 

[Chris C]

(hilite mine)

Hi LondonJohn and others,
Reading that Mignini believes Amanda keep herself covered, when photographic proff shows otherwise kinda reminds me of Comodi stating in court that Amanda called her Mom at 3:00am in the morning, when in reality Amanda called her Mom at 4:47am, nearly 2 hours later.

I would think that these 2 should know better.
Hmmm...
RW

If you looked at the pictures nearly everyone was covered up. The investigators were wearing winter coats and turtle necks.

 

[Mary_H]

"visions" i thought it was implanted memories or something? this is the problem not being able to give a clear & coherent account puts you in trouble.

Its like an extension of the Darwin awards. If someone is stupid enough during a murder investigation to do that they almost deserve to be in prison. Same with raph and the speed of his capitulation & excuses when told about dna on the knife. If they are innocent they're 2 of the most stupid people on earth. Will we really miss them?

yeti101, are you aware that Prosecutor Mignini also made up a story about what happened at the murder scene? Without any evidence, and with no one prodding or persuading him, he decided, and argued at trial, that Amanda stabbed Meredith in the throat, and then Raffaele followed suit. Mignini had a computer animator make a cartoon showing how, in Mignini's imagination, the crime was committed, and he presented it at trial as if it were fact.

Now Mignini says maybe Amanda wasn't even in the bedroom during the murder, after all. Would you call his a clear and coherent account?

It's okay to be stupid when you're in college and in a foreign country, while desperate people are doing desperate things to get you locked up. It's not okay to be stupid when you are an experienced lawyer who holds other people's lives in his hands.

i believe when your innocent its easy to give an account & stick to because its the truth. Lamumba didn't have any problems- no false memories or "visions" I imagine the pressure he was under was far greater.

What Lumumba said and/or did is not part of the written record, unfortunately, so we can't speculate. Keep in mind, though, he had at least fifteen years on both Amanda and Raffaele, and was a well known resident of the town in which he was arrested. His wife/friends/attorney/colleagues were working on getting his alibi validated before Amanda and Raffaele had even met their lawyers.

 

[platonov]

Platonov,

If I had a nickel for every time I have heard that Dr. Hampikian had no standing in this case, I would be richer than I am now. That statement about Dr. Hampikian is false, BTW. However, Colonel Garofano does not consult for the prosecution, to the best of my knowledge. The confusion he propagates is achieved in other ways.

Yea, by about seven nickels (and he doesn't - he's another vulture trying to make a buck off a rape/murder victim).

Haven't you heard

 

[shuttlt]

Actually, I don't know where you stand (perhaps I have forgotten). For example, did you mean that it is hard to believe that we don't have a clear answer to the question after all of this time or something else?

A bit of both. The interrogation times, we have more or less known for ages, yet people can still argue about it based mainly on not liking the definitions one another are using. The DNA raw data stuff, clearly nothing sufficiently unambiguous has been said by the right people to satisfy everyone about what the real situation is, so here we are with disagreements about stuff that should really be easy to find out. It's frustrating.

 

[RWVBWL]

<snip>
Has Mignini confused Amanda with someone else..............

[qimg]http://notitiacriminis.blogosfere.it/images/knox%20e%20sollecito-thumb.jpg[/qimg] ?

///

Hi ChrisC,
By looking at this photo that Fine posted ealier, you would think Raffaele had something to hide, not Amanda. Mignini is confused...

 

[Kaosium]

Finally ! - despite the naysayers (I'm looking at you shuttlt) claiming that nothing could ever be agreed on this interminable thread - We have a breakthrough

Months ago I explained this at length to you halides1, even resorting to using extracts from the dreaded Massei report [that everyone has read ] and you seemed very resistant to the idea.

See Link , Link Link and a bunch of other posts in those pages.

Do I get a (stale 6 month old) cookie

Can I hope against hope that in another 6 months you will accept the point about the DNA data or will the rescheduled rapture come first.

I'm afraid I'm a bit confused here. Platonov, what on earth are you arguing?

With trepidation, I offer this:

What do you think the odds are Stefanoni said in court that the DNA mixtures indicated that both Amanda and Meredith's blood was mixed, and Massei corrected that in his Motivations Report?

 

[platonov]

Hey Joe - where you goin, you got that book upside down/inside out ..never mind

I'm afraid I'm a bit confused here. Platonov, what on earth are you arguing?

With trepidation, I offer this:

What do you think the odds are Stefanoni said in court that the DNA mixtures indicated that both Amanda and Meredith's blood was mixed, and Massei corrected that in his Motivations Report?

Is this the report [that everyone has read] where Massei said the rock was thrown out through the window from inside If so - I cant help.

Otherwise - No chance.

But, I guess you will have to take my word for it

ps You should have more faith in halides1 - he can defend his own arguments.

 

[Kaosium]

Is this the report [that everyone has read] where Massei said the rock was thrown out through the window from inside If so - I cant help.


Otherwise - No chance.

0%? No chance whatsoever? What makes you come to that conclusion?

But, I guess you will have to take my word for it

Of course I will, after all it's your opinion!

ps You should have more faith in halides1 - he can defend his own arguments.

I'm certain he can, however that doesn't mean I don't want to talk about it as well...