Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[TSR]

As I said the debate had nothing to do with the "facts/lies" of the Holocaust it had to do with Germany removing the YOKE of the Holocaust.

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No, that's not what you said.

You said "discussion of the Holocaust" carried consequences.

If you meant that denying the Holocaust can have consequences, why did you try to sugar-coat it?

Now, all you have to do to support your suggestion that the normative understanding of the Holocaust is based on lies is to come up with an alternate explanation, supported by the evidence, which offers a better explanation of questions such as "What happened to Guta and Abus Strawczynski?"
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[Clayton Moore]

Sigh.....missed the point as usual

Your point was?


As far as I'm concerned if those men were truly guilty as accused, leniency, so soon after millions were alleged to have been slaughtered, would have enraged the world. The Mossad would have hunted them down and killed them.

There was no mercy in the heart of the world's Jewish community as viciously demonstrated by Morgenthau's JCS 1779 Plan.

 

[Clayton Moore]

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No, that's not what you said.

You said "discussion of the Holocaust" carried consequences.

If you meant that denying the Holocaust can have consequences, why did you try to sugar-coat it?

Now, all you have to do to support your suggestion that the normative understanding of the Holocaust is based on lies is to come up with an alternate explanation, supported by the evidence, which offers a better explanation of questions such as "What happened to Guta and Abus Strawczynski?"
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You may wanna discuss your responses with the other believers before you post. Try quoting the post you're attempting to respond to.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Nothing in his diary was shocking. . . . Especially when you have a guy who was at Auschwitz for, what? A couple of months in 1942? He clearly wasn't one of the big fish.

I stand corrected. Nothing was shocking in Kremer's diary because he was only in the death camp Auschwitz for two months and he wasn't a big fish. He recorded nothing shocking or out of the ordinary, just business as usual for your heroes--eat, drink, and kill Jews:

2 September 1942
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Was present for first time at a “special action” at 3 am. By comparison Dante’s Inferno seems almost a comedy. Auschwitz is justly called an extermination camp
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A first selection is carried out in Cosel, 761 people are killed in the gas chambers.

5 September 1942
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This noon was present at a special action in the women’s camp, “Moslems”* – the most horrible of all horrors. Hschf Thilo, military surgeon, is right when he said to me today that we are located here in “anus mundi” (anus of the world).
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In the evening at about 8 pm another “special action” with a draft from Holland. Men compete to take part in such actions as they get additional rations – one fifth litre of Vodka, 5 cigarettes, 100 gram’s of sausage and bread. Today and tomorrow (Sunday) on duty. . .. .

20 September 1942
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This Sunday afternoon from 3pm to 6pm I listened to a concert of the prisoners’ band in glorious sunshine; the bandmaster was a conductor of the Warsaw State Opera, 80 musicians.
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Roast pork for dinner, baked tench for supper
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23 September 1942
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This night was present at the 6th and 7th special actions. Obergruppenfuhrer Pohl with suite arrived at the Waffen –SS club-house in the morning. The sentry at the door presented arms before me for the first time.
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At 8 o’clock in the evening supper in the Home with Obergruppenfuhrer Pohl, a truly festive meal. We had baked pike, as much of it, as we wanted, real coffee, excellent beer and sandwiches. . . .

7 October 1942
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Present at the 9th special action (new arrivals and women “Moslems”) Wirths finally back. Am acting for Entress in men’s camp (introducing doctors etc). . . .

17 October 1942
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Was present at a punishment and 11 executions. Have taken fresh liver, spleen and pancreas material after an injection of pilocarpin
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Drove to Mikolow with Wirths, who had told me earlier that I would have to stay on longer. . . .

18 October 1942
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In wet and cold weather was on this Sunday morning present at the 11th special action (from Holland). Terrible scenes when 3 women begged to have their bare lives spared. . . .

 

[TSR]

You may wanna discuss your responses with the other believers before you post.

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Because ... ?
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Try quoting the post you're attempting to respond to.

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I did -- that little part in grey at the top of my post? That was your post, to which mine was a response.

If you click the little boxed arrow the the right of your name, it will take you to the entire post. And then to the right of my name, and then to the right of your name, and so forth. This process will bring to your post 2323 in which you lied that "... there are serious consequences for just discussing the Holocaust."

Not to mention that you expose your ignorance of Nolte's body of work in which AFAIR he regularly refers to the Holocaust (while refusing to even use that term) as "so-called", which goes well beyond discussion.
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[LemmyCaution]

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Because ... ?
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I did -- that little part in grey at the top of my post? That was your post, to which mine was a response.

If you click the little boxed arrow the the right of your name, it will take you to the entire post. And then to the right of my name, and then to the right of your name, and so forth. This process will bring to your post 2323 in which you lied that "... there are serious consequences for just discussing the Holocaust."

Not to mention that you expose your ignorance of Nolte's body of work in which AFAIR he regularly refers to the Holocaust (while refusing to even use that term) as "so-called", which goes well beyond discussion.
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And also IIRC characterized the genocide as an "Asiatic" response taken in defense against an "Asiatic" (Russian communist) threat. Or something to that effect. So I guess removing the yolk of the Holocaust rather involved reinterpreting it--or, to put this another way, revising the history of it.

 

[LemmyCaution]

As far as I'm concerned . . . .

It doesn't work that way. Your concerns do not trump the evidence and the discussion grounded in evidence. The men in question were found guilty, and widely believed to be guilty. Yet, on their premature release Mossad did not hunt them down. As far as I'm concerned, you are ignorant about these matters and certainly you show no awareness of the issues involved in the EG trial and its subsequent fallout.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Quote:
Every time you use the term denier it validates the lies about gas chambers, gas vans, etc.

I use "denier" in the same way African Americans called each other the N-word. I don't see it as validating the lies about the gas chambers. But people who call others holocaust deniers because they question the Holy Trinity of gas/intent/six million are basically restricting the holocaust to just those three things.

The N word is used as a mild rebuke. In my experience Hispanics use it more than Blacks.

Referring to yourself as a denier is certainly not the same.
If you go through the thread most believers infer that "deniers" think the/a Holocaust never happened and the Jewish people of Europe were not discriminated against.

Your insider use of denier, reinforces their inference. Revisionist does not.

 

[TSR]

Revisionist does not.

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Nor does 'revisionism' describe what you do.

"'Revisionism' is obliged to deviate from the standard methodology of historical pursuit because it seeks to mold facts to fit a preconceived result, it denies events that have been objectively and empirically proved to have occurred, and because it works backward from the conclusion to the facts, thus necessitating the distortion and manipulation of those facts where they differ from the preordained conclusion (which they almost always do). In short, "revisionism" denies something that demonstrably happened, through methodological dishonesty."
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[little grey rabbit]

Quote:
Every time you use the term denier it validates the lies about gas chambers, gas vans, etc.



The N word is used as a mild rebuke. In my experience Hispanics use it more than Blacks.

Referring to yourself as a denier is certainly not the same.
If you go through the thread most believers infer that "deniers" think the/a Holocaust never happened and the Jewish people of Europe were not discriminated against.

Your insider use of denier, reinforces their inference. Revisionist does not.

Call me anything you like, just don't call me late for dinner.

If women can reclaim slut, I don't see why I can't reclaim denier.

Did people deny the divinity of Christ? Of course they did.
Do I deny the existence of homicidal gas chambers? Of course I do, its a loada nonsense

Do people deny the prospect of mankind induced global warming catastrophe? Of course they do!

Do people deny we are all about to die in a global influenza pandemic? You bet!

 

[little grey rabbit]

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Nor does 'revisionism' describe what you do.

"'Revisionism' is obliged to deviate from the standard methodology of historical pursuit because it seeks to mold facts to fit a preconceived result, it denies events that have been objectively and empirically proved to have occurred, and because it works backward from the conclusion to the facts, thus necessitating the distortion and manipulation of those facts where they differ from the preordained conclusion (which they almost always do). In short, "revisionism" denies something that demonstrably happened, through methodological dishonesty."
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Dunno, I would have thought it was methodologically dishonest to claim 69 defendents all gave eye-witness testimony to gas chambers when it is clear they did not.

But thats just me.

I would have thought it methodologically dishonest to write about the Sonderkommando revolt at Auschwitz without acknowledging that the first version of this event involved Poles from Warsaw resisting being gassed.

Again, thats just me.

 

[Corsair 115]

As I said the debate had nothing to do with the "facts/lies" of the Holocaust it had to do with Germany removing the YOKE of the Holocaust.

And yet if that yoke is something which never actually happened, then it should be Germany first and foremost trying to correct the record. It isn't. That should tell you something about the validity of theories.


Side note: I wonder, do Clayton et. al. deny the various heinous acts perpetrated by the Japanese during WWII, e.g. the 'comfort women,' Bataan Death March, the widespread mistreatment of prisoners of war? Or is it just German transgressions which are faked while Japanese misdeeds were real?

 

[Wroclaw]

Dunno, I would have thought it was methodologically dishonest to claim 69 defendents all gave eye-witness testimony to gas chambers when it is clear they did not.

I certainly never said that.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Dunno, I would have thought it was methodologically dishonest to claim 69 defendents all gave eye-witness testimony to gas chambers when it is clear they did not.

But thats just me.

I would have thought it methodologically dishonest to write about the Sonderkommando revolt at Auschwitz without acknowledging that the first version of this event involved Poles from Warsaw resisting being gassed.

Again, thats just me.

What version are they on now?

It's odd how a lie starts out super ugly and over the top. Then it winds up, after being tempered over and over and over, still a lie but now tolerable/feasible in comparison. Reasonable, almost a relief from the original lie, which of course was never labeled a lie, just misinformation. A fog of war thing. Sound familiar?

 

[Clayton Moore]

And yet if that yoke is something which never actually happened, then it should be Germany first and foremost trying to correct the record. It isn't. That should tell you something about the validity of theories.


Side note: I wonder, do Clayton et. al. deny the various heinous acts perpetrated by the Japanese during WWII, e.g. the 'comfort women,' Bataan Death March, the widespread mistreatment of prisoners of war? Or is it just German transgressions which are faked while Japanese misdeeds were real?

How many here don't know what a yoke is?

 

[TheRedWorm]

What version are they on now?

It's odd how a lie starts out super ugly and over the top. Then it winds up, after being tempered over and over and over, still a lie but now tolerable/feasible in comparison. Reasonable, almost a relief from the original lie, which of course was never labeled a lie, just misinformation. A fog of war thing. Sound familiar?

This is a serious question. How closely do you read all the evidence WRT the Holocaust? For instance, how many hours would you estimate you have spent reading about the Holocaust from offline sources? How many different sources? What credence do you give testimonies from those that were actually there? Were not there but heard second-hand accounts? Didn't see the Nazis physically killing Jews, but saw the aftermath? Essentially,what sources are you basing your posts on, and what do you take into account, what do you discard, and why?

 

[Clayton Moore]

This is a serious question. How closely do you read all the evidence WRT the Holocaust? For instance, how many hours would you estimate you have spent reading about the Holocaust from offline sources? How many different sources? What credence do you give testimonies from those that were actually there? Were not there but heard second-hand accounts? Didn't see the Nazis physically killing Jews, but saw the aftermath? Essentially,what sources are you basing your posts on, and what do you take into account, what do you discard, and why?

95% of my viewpoint is the result of my interpretation of the information provided by sites that proffer the popular view of the Holocaust. Much of that truth has been weaned from those sites to prevent the "soap" and "4 million at Auschwitz" type mainstays from becoming a liability.

 

[little grey rabbit]

I certainly never said that.

With respect, Wroclaw. This was your original claim

Oh, dear...

I want you to read this:

http://rodohforum.yuku.com/topic/227...atement-4-2-04

However, knowing that you're too lazy to do so, I'll give you the important quote here:

Quote:
"In total there are the depositions of forty SS-members sentenced in Poland in 1947, those of Höss and those of 19 SS-members sentenced or acquitted in the German Federal Republic between 1963 and 1965, the depositions of Baer and Dejaco and of a further seven SS-members testifying as witnesses who admitted to having seen the Auschwitz gas chambers with their own eyes. A total of 69 witnesses who had belonged to the SS."
They're all liars also?

 

[little grey rabbit]

Just while we are on Baer. The sole statement on Auschwitz that he made and his interrogators were prepared to record is this

Ich kann mich heute nicht mehr genau daran erinnern, wann ich nach Auschwitz kam. Meiner Erinnerung nach war es im Mai oder Juni 1944. Wenn mir aus den Eintragungen der Führerkartei vorgehalten wird, daß ich vom 13.11.1942 ab als Adjutant bei Pohl war und am 15.5.1944 nach Auschwitz kam, so kann das richtig sein. Ehe ich nach Auschwitz kam, hatte ich einen Urlaub nach Floß angetreten. Dort hielt ich mich auf und erwartete einen Anruf von Höß aus Auschwitz. Dieser Anruf kam auch, und Höß teilte mir mit, daß ich nunmehr nach Auschwitz kommen sollte. In Auschwitz war ich Kommandant des Lagers I und Standortältester.

Zum SS-Hauptsturmführer wurde ich im November 1942 und auf Grund meiner Verdienste bei Pohl zum SS-Sturmbannführer im Juni 1944 befördert.

Auschwitz habe ich nach Beginn der Evakuierung Mitte Januar 1945 verlassen. Ich fuhr dann von Auschwitz im Kraftwagen weg und habe zunächst an verschiedenen Stellen, z.B. in Oppeln und Ratibor versucht, Waggons für den Häftlingsabtransport zu bekommen.

Odd.....either after 3 years they didn't ask him about gas chambers the entire time....or else they did, didn't like his answers and refused to record them

 

[Corsair 115]

How many here don't know what a yoke is?

You failed to answer either of my points. You're 0-2, with two strikeouts. Perhaps you should pull yourself out of the lineup.