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Gage's next debate

Animal, What is absurd, is that people with relevant training accept this as fact, and a carpenter, who has next to no relevant training, claim it is wrong.

I brought this up in my fire science class. They laughed at his conclusions.

Yet there are many with relevant training who do not accept this as fact, who do not believe the failure of one column in a modern steel framed skyscraper can lead to a global collapse in a virtual free fall. No, not everyone with relevant training accepts this as fact.
 
Animal, What is absurd, is that people with relevant training accept this as fact, and a carpenter, who has next to no relevant training, claim it is wrong.

I brought this up in my fire science class. They laughed at his conclusions.

Yeah, my structural engineering consultants all thing the troofers are batty as well
 
Yet there are many with relevant training who do not accept this as fact, who do not believe the failure of one column in a modern steel framed skyscraper can lead to a global collapse in a virtual free fall. No, not everyone with relevant training accepts this as fact.

And yet, not a single legit peer-reviewed article between any of them.

Go back to the drawing board, and take Chris7 with you. Maybe between the two of you, you can come up with a legit paper. I will even help you try to get it published.
 
Even if this were the case, it wouldn't prove CD. This is just like young earth creationists who believe poking holes in evolutionary theory proves divine creation. I leave the possibility of NIST's hypothesis being falsified to the relevant experts. (aka structual and forensic engineers) Since there are many engineers and scientists, some of which post here regularly, who have read the report and found it's conclusions reasonable, couldn't you have just made a mistake in your "analysis"? There are lots of factors to consider in the collapse some of which would take some very detailed simulations to work out, and years of experience in the relevant fields.

I don't think it's as easy as you make it sound. I asked you this before, but if you believe the NIST scientists were in on it is some way, why would they leave such obvious flaws in the report? Especially ones large enough for a layperson to spot. Surely you believe other evidence was tampered with by the conspirators, so why not do it again in the NIST report?

There are so many minor variable factors. The NIST sought out the major ones that led to the collapse. For example, the girder that was walked off the beam in NIST scenario.......could have hung up my a sliver of material, until structural creep caused it to fail resulting in the floor collapse and building failure. Another possibility is the girder walked off, and "hung: do to the rest of the structure and then eventually resulted in the floor failure. Or it could have hung up and another piece of structure fell on it resulting in the floor failure. None of these minor variables change the girder walking off its seat leading to building failure.....none of these variables cause the NIST report to be fatally flawed.
 
Yet there are many A FEW with relevant training who do not accept this as fact, who do not believe the failure of one column in a modern steel framed skyscraper can lead to a global collapse in a virtual free fall. No, not everyone with relevant training accepts this as fact.


Fixed that for you.

Every profession has its fruitcakes, those types in the architecture and engineering fields can be found in troofer groups.
 
Dave Thomas,

P.S. Chris M: Knowing Gage, I think the reason he's not putting the video out is simple: in his mind, you won the debate.

Thanks for this. I'm too close to the debate to say i won, but I am happy with what I did. With all the new stuff I've collected these past ten weeks from y'all here I could have done even better... and will, with my new video. I just lined up a budget videographer and am cruising nicely through my final preparations!
 
And yet, not a single legit peer-reviewed article between any of them.

Go back to the drawing board, and take Chris7 with you. Maybe between the two of you, you can come up with a legit paper. I will even help you try to get it published.

Nice shifting of the goalposts.

Next.
 
Fixed that for you.

Every profession has its fruitcakes, those types in the architecture and engineering fields can be found in troofer groups.

Do you have a list of architects and engineers who completely disagree with the ideas of A&E for 911 truth?
 
Do you have a list of architects and engineers who completely disagree with the ideas of A&E for 911 truth?
There are zero architects and engineers who can support any ideas of A&E for 911 truth with facts and evidence. Your question is not valid. You can't support a single idea of 911 truth with evidence. You can't prove anything A$E have. Yes it is only $ for Gage. He takes the money and travels. What a scam.
 
C7 said:
That does not change the FACT that the NIST hypothesis is fraudulent. They said thermal expansion, not thermal contraction, triggered the collapse. This did not happen because the fire had burned out.

Y'all will keep denying the obvious and I will keep reminding you and the lurkers what the NIST hypothesis is and why it is impossible.
Even if this were the case, it wouldn't prove CD.
You did as I predicted. :rolleyes:

I leave the possibility of NIST's hypothesis being falsified to the relevant experts. (aka structual and forensic engineers)
LOL The only "expertise" required is a 6th grade reading comprehension ability that you seem to lack.

Since there are many engineers and scientists, some of which post here regularly, who have read the report and found it's conclusions reasonable
There are a bunch of anonymous adolescents on this forum claiming to be all sorts of things.

couldn't you have just made a mistake in your "analysis"?
No. Ask your mommy to help you with this one:
NIST L pg 26
Around 4:45 p.m., a photograph showed fires Floors 7, 8, 9, and 11 near the middle of the north face; Floor 12 was burned out by this time.

There are lots of factors to consider in the collapse some of which would take some very detailed simulations to work out, and years of experience in the relevant fields.
This part is not dificult for anyone with an IQ greater than room temperature.

I don't think it's as easy as you make it sound.
:rolleyes:

I asked you this before, but if you believe the NIST scientists were in on it is some way, why would they leave such obvious flaws in the report? Especially ones large enough for a layperson to spot.
Hubris.
 
There are so many minor variable factors. The NIST sought out the major ones that led to the collapse. For example, the girder that was walked off the beam in NIST scenario.......could have hung up my a sliver of material, until structural creep caused it to fail resulting in the floor collapse and building failure. Another possibility is the girder walked off, and "hung: do to the rest of the structure and then eventually resulted in the floor failure. Or it could have hung up and another piece of structure fell on it resulting in the floor failure. None of these minor variables change the girder walking off its seat leading to building failure.....none of these variables cause the NIST report to be fatally flawed.
You are grasping at straws.
1-9 Vol.2 pg 488 [pdf pg 150]
Walk-off failure of beams and girders was defined to occur when . . . . the beam or girder was pushed laterally until its web was no longer supported by the bearing seat.. . . . when the web was no longer supported by the bearing seat, the beam was assumed to have lost support, . . . . Under such conditions, the beam would fall to the floor below under its self weight. When this occurred in the ANSYS analysis, the beam was removed. When a girder failed in this manner, the floor beams that it supported were removed at the same time.


Denial is a powerful thing. You guys keep trying to find a way around the facts but you can't.
The NIST hypothesis is:
At 5:20 p.m., the fire on floor 12 heated the beams under floor 13 causing them to expand and push a girder off its seat. When that occurred the girder and the beams were removed in the FEA model.
[there was no delayed reaction]

According to NIST, this is how and when the collapse began.
 
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Yet there are many with relevant training who do not accept this as fact, who do not believe the failure of one column in a modern steel framed skyscraper can lead to a global collapse in a virtual free fall. No, not everyone with relevant training accepts this as fact.

Many?
AE911"truth" lists 274 Professional Engineers.
Is that many?
Let's see:

The state of New York lists nearly 25.000 licensed, registered professional engineers. Arounbd 10.000 of these are civil or structural engineers (those with relevant training for our purposes).
AE911"truth" lists precisely 1 registered civil engineer. That is 0.01%.
I wouldn't call 1 out of 10,000 "many".

The state of New Jersey has a roster of close to 20,000 Professional Engineers.
Precisely 4 of these 20,000 signed the "petition" at ae911"truth". That's 0.02%.
Precisely 1 of them is a civil engineer.
I wouldn't call 1, or 0.02%, "many".
 
You are grasping at straws.
1-9 Vol.2 pg 488 [pdf pg 150]
Walk-off failure of beams and girders was defined to occur when . . . . the beam or girder was pushed laterally until its web was no longer supported by the bearing seat.. . . . when the web was no longer supported by the bearing seat, the beam was assumed to have lost support, . . . . Under such conditions, the beam would fall to the floor below under its self weight. When this occurred in the ANSYS analysis, the beam was removed. When a girder failed in this manner, the floor beams that it supported were removed at the same time.


Denial is a powerful thing. You guys keep trying to find a way around the facts but you can't.
The NIST hypothesis is:
At 5:20 p.m., the fire on floor 12 heated the beams under floor 13 causing them to expand and push a girder off its seat. When that occurred the girder and the beams were removed in the FEA model.
[there was no delayed reaction]

According to NIST, this is how and when the collapse began.

How did your carpentery skills enable you to determine that?
 
How did your carpentery skills enable you to determine that?

dafydd, seriously, this insistence on presenting "official" skills, is not going to produce anything useful. That blade cuts both ways.
I am not an engineer, I am not even a carpenter (who constructs structural assemblies for a living), yet you never ask ME about my relevant professional or academic resume when I participate in debates about engineering matters. Should I stay away from these threads? No. Even without formal training, it is possible to self-educate oneself to a level where one is able to form and defend informed opinions.
 
dafydd, seriously, this insistence on presenting "official" skills, is not going to produce anything useful. That blade cuts both ways.
I am not an engineer, I am not even a carpenter (who constructs structural assemblies for a living), yet you never ask ME about my relevant professional or academic resume when I participate in debates about engineering matters. Should I stay away from these threads? No. Even without formal training, it is possible to self-educate oneself to a level where one is able to form and defend informed opinions.

Point taken. He justs posts as if he was qualified to make final judgements about these matters.
 
Point taken. He justs posts as if he was qualified to make final judgements about these matters.

And maybe he is, because he has learned enough on his private time to make such final judgements. Maybe.

Usually, the qualifications of posters don't matter very much, their arguments do. The arguments can be right or wrong, or vague, no matter who writes them.

The qualification ("authority") of someone making an argument only becomes relevant if it is made to be part of the argument. For example, anyone who parrots Richard Gage's lies with a claim that 1500 architects and engineers can't be wrong, might be made to answer if the qualifications of those 1500 are relevant.
Or if a poster here insinuates that we should believe him because he is this or that by profession or education, then it might be appropriate to ask for evidence that this is not a lie.

You might want to personally judge posters by their qualifications, and I, for example, certainly trust ozeco more than some others in some small part because he is an engineer, but more because I have seen again and again that his engineering arguments are convincing.
 
Debate Rebuttal Part Four: Freefall destruction + Tilted Top

Near free-fall destruction

Hi gang, Here's part four of my rebuttal video. I have a time next week to videotape all this so we'll be wrapping up before too long here.

Thanks,
Chris


Face: I have a lot of disagreements with Richard Gage’s video Blueprint For Truth. So far I have listed 1000000000000 of them. Next is his claim that the Twin Towers came down at near free-fall acceleration and that this is evidence of controlled demolition. Unfortunately for me, he has support from NIST, who says the first exterior panels hit the ground in 9 to 11 seconds. They say a precise calculation of the collapse timing ofo the building itself can’t be precisely determined because of all the dust. So all NIST tells us is that the exterior panels, the ones that were not slowed down by the building structure underneath, fell at near-freefall. But the NIST Report really only goes to the moment of the initiation of the collapse, what they call the point of inevitability. That’s because they were studying the cause of the collapse so they could make safety recommendations. The effect of the collapse initiation was, to them, just a very fast collapse. “Gravity takes care of it from there,” they told me. They also told me that there are plenty of peer-reviewed papers available to anyone who wants to study the collapse itself.

Richard Gage condemns the NIST Report for stopping at the initiation of collapse. “There is no model of the collapse. Why didn’t they do it? Could it be because they knew darn well it could not have collapsed at all?” Quite the opposite.

SLIDE Reasons: In fact, researchers in the 911 Truth movement itself have stated that the collapse time for the Towers was around 15 seconds. In addition, MIT professor Thomas Eagar said most of the building fell at 2/3 free fall in around 15 seconds. So researchers on both sides seem to agree on that rough figure. And I submit that the slower collapse rate shows significant resistance to the momentum of the collapse and is yet another reason to believe the natural collapse theory.

The towers did not fall at almost free fall speed. As NIST told me personally, “the momentum (which equals mass times velocity) of the 12 or 28 stories falling on the supporting structure below so greatly exceeded the strength capacity of the structure below that it couldn’t stop... the falling mass. The downward momentum felt by each successive lower floor was even larger due to the increasing mass.”

So reason #19 is that the two towers did provide structural resistance, and the stronger core came to the ground last, standing for up to 25 seconds after the start of the initial collapse before they too collapsed. Core columns broke mostly at the welded connections every 36 ft.. In Blueprint for Truth, Richard says, “To bring a building symmetrically down, what we have to do is remove the core columns.” But the stronger core columns came down last!

So, Reason #20 if it were any kind of controlled demolition, then detonating the core structure and causing its collapse first would always be the priority or the demolition won’t work right at all.

Slide of Core Collapsing Last: If I said I was earning almost $100K/yr when I was earning only $67K, you’d think I was exaggerating, so Richard can’t say the towers fell at almost free fall speed when it was only 2/3 free fall. There’s a very big difference.

So the $100,000 question for Richard Gage and me is which force wins in the monumental battle between gravitational momentum and structural strength. I say gravity won, but it had to fight and overcome the strong steel structure of the building floor by floor. Richard says the strong structure should have won, and could have lost only with the help of controlled demolition knocking out the support. Here’s the simple formula that shows why gravity won:

SLIDE OF F=MA Reason #21 In two seconds, free-fall descent speed is 45 miles per hour.
At 9.8 meters/second a 10,000,000-pound floor would slam into the floor below at 98,000,000 pounds’ worth of force.

VIDEO OF SCALE 40 seconds

I made a little video demonstrating the power of gravity. The scale can measure 300 pounds and it has a 25 pound weight on it. I’ll drop that weight from about half a story so we can see if we can get a measurement. The formula is force equals mass times acceleration, so gravity increases the force almost tenfold in the first second alone.

F. R. Greening says the towers weighed over a billion pounds, had stupendous gravitational momentum with 14 or 29 floors above the collapse (180,000,000 pounds) traveling at over 100 mph. With each successive floor, add more momentum and millions of additional pounds, overwhelming the resistance of the support structure. The scale has been destroyed before it can even measure the weight of this falling object!

That’s 7 to 14 times the structural load of the buildings during the collapse. Eduardo Kausel, in September 2001, wrote: “As they gained momentum, their crushing descent became unstoppable...The fall... down the height of a single floor must have caused dynamic forces exceeding the design loads by [more than 10 times]....”

The scale was destroyed before it even gave us a weight. I’m sure you can make this into a repeatable experiment of sorts. Richard is just not giving gravity enough respect!

REASON # TOUGHNESS SLIDE It appears to me that some of the calculations of the strength of the Twin Towers don’t take into account what happens to the static strength of steel columns under the stress of a collapse. A steel column or beam will resist at full power only until it deforms by about 1%, and then it fractures, and its strength goes to near zero. The average strength, during the collapse, is a tiny fraction of its static strength. In solid mechanics they speak of a parameter called "toughness," the work required to fracture or otherwise destroy a piece of material. This is the quantity one needs to estimate, and it is a great deal less than the static strength of each member times its length.


453.) C Tilting Building top south tower

Face



Richard Gage claims that the collapse of the three WTC Buildings was nearly symmetrical into its own footprint and says this is further evidence of controlled demolition because a natural collapse would have been messier.

Slide of Tilting Top Here is the most dramatic proof that there was nothing symmetrical about the collapse of the South Tower. This is yet another example of how, as Richard said in his video, the collapse shows all the characteristics of a classic controlled demolition, except when it doesn’t.

But Richard tries to turn this 22-degree tilt in the South Tower to his advantage by claiming that only controlled demolition could have stopped the building top from falling over once the angular momentum of the tipping began. Let’s see if this is true, and add some more reasons for natural collapse to our collection.

SLIDE of more reasons

Reason 18: All three of the buildings began their collapses into their weakest points. The top of the south building tilted 22 degrees into the hole left behind by the plane crash. COLLAPSE BEGAN JUST ABOVE JET CRASH POINT. Richard Gage said that if you were to have a deceptive controlled demolition, “you’d start the explosions at the point of jet plane impact.” But Former Ctd demolition employee Tom Sullivan, who believes in ctl demo of these buildings, says you couldn’t have ctl demo in a fire zone. he conjectures the plane crashes would have to be precisely planned with the demolition starting away from fires, but these collapses started right in the fires, as Richard admits.

Reason 19: If explosives were placed, then they would have been destroyed and damaged by the planes and the fires. Shaped charges are extremely sensitive to geometry. Explosives burn, detonate or chemically degrade in high heat. Detonators, radio receivers, wiring, and connections between explosives are sensitive components.

Reason 19: controlled demolition crews definitely could not instantly right the 180,000,000 pound building top collapsing at high speeds on the floors with the worst fires in mid-course.

SLIDE OF PARTIAL LATERAL FORCE IN EARTHQUAKE. The lateral force or angular momentum of the towers were overcome by the greater force of gravity... DEMO: Two boxes duct taped together tilted 22 degrees, Angular momentum pushing it over, gravity gravity gravity trumps the angular momentum, pushing it back down.

Reason 20: and my 14 experts, all but one of them immediately said that because of the fast descent of the whole building, it would have collapsed to the ground before having time to tip over much further. SLIDE OF MORE REASONS

SLIDE OF THESE REASONS And remember, the entire towers rotated a few degrees at the onset of the collapse, which is precisely what we expect in a gradual collapse mechanism. If all the supports had failed simultaneously in a controlled demolition, as Richard Gage insists, neither Towers would have rotated.

The toppling collapse theory requires crushing to be asymmetric, occurring on only one side, which is implausible – as the leading edge of the rotating block crushes the structure below, the crushed structure resists, and this reactive force will tend to keep the upper block centered, causing either a downward collapse or no collapse at all.

Richard doesn’t seem to take gravity fully into account here. It comes up in other places too. Does he really think there’s not enough gravity in a 180,000,000 pound building section to overcome angular momentum and right the structure? He actually tries to eliminate the weight of the upper blocks of the towers, saying that after four seconds it was all dust and had no mass. And while some mass was lost to dust pulverization, the top block had plenty of unpulverized mass that made it all the way to the debris pile. Plus, 10,000,00 pounds of mass was added with each collapsing floor, more than making up for the loss of mass due to gradual pulverization. And let’s remember the 2008 Delft University high speed collapse of a 13-story concrete-reinforced steel tower straight down into its own footprint.

If you are familiar with the issues around 911, you are probably asking yourself, OK, the Twin Towers fell at 2/3 of freefall, but what about Building 7? Even NIST says it came down at around freefall. And you are right. For most of the collapse, the perimeter wall of Building 7 came down at around 2/3 of freefall, but for eight stories out of 47, Building 7 did come down at or even slightly faster than freefall. Now there’s a 911 mystery for both Richard Gage and for me! I’ll explain how a faster than freefall acceleration is possible and may have occurred in Building 7's natural collapse during a later section of this rebuttal.
 
You did as I predicted. :rolleyes:

LOL The only "expertise" required is a 6th grade reading comprehension ability that you seem to lack.

There are a bunch of anonymous adolescents on this forum claiming to be all sorts of things.

No. Ask your mommy to help you with this one:
NIST L pg 26
Around 4:45 p.m., a photograph showed fires Floors 7, 8, 9, and 11 near the middle of the north face; Floor 12 was burned out by this time.

This part is not dificult for anyone with an IQ greater than room temperature.

:rolleyes:

Hubris.

Lol. Good response Chris. I guess anyone here who claims to have more knowledge than you on this forum is just an anonymous adolescent. (They couldn't possibly just know what they're talking about) And anyone who disagrees with you, or who finds your arguments wholly unconvincing must be stupid, or unable to comprehend your posts. (The majority of people on a critical thinking forum) Right ;) Keep telling yourself that.
(BTW I did not call into question what you are posting from the NIST report. I am calling into question your conclusion that fire out on floor 12 means no collapse.)
I guess I was right when I predicted you couldn't even admit you could be wrong about this. Keep parroting your "theory" C7. And don't worry about publishing your results in a journal or anything. Who needs to do that when you can just copy and paste text from another report and then "theorize" about it on a website. :D
 
Couple of quick comments:

F. R. Greening says the towers weighed over a billion pounds, had stupendous gravitational momentum with 14 or 29 floors above the collapse (180,000,000 pounds) traveling at over 100 mph.

While early estimates (including from Dr. Eagar) had the mass of a WTC at roughly 500,000 tonnes, more accurate accounting puts that number much lower. We went round and round this issue back in the day even though it isn't really an issue pro or con the conspiracy theories -- it kinda cancels out of the problem.

The most accurate accounting of mass that I know of puts each Tower mass at about 290,000 tonnes. Yes, I know this is a paper in the JONES, one of the very few that makes sense. I reviewed these calculations and the result is also consistent with NIST's study.

The 500,000 tonne number is closer to a WTC Tower mass at maximum design limit. Careful study reveals that they were loaded to a much more ordinary degree.

SLIDE OF PARTIAL LATERAL FORCE IN EARTHQUAKE. The lateral force or angular momentum of the towers were overcome by the greater force of gravity... DEMO: Two boxes duct taped together tilted 22 degrees, Angular momentum pushing it over, gravity gravity gravity trumps the angular momentum, pushing it back down.

Reason 20: and my 14 experts, all but one of them immediately said that because of the fast descent of the whole building, it would have collapsed to the ground before having time to tip over much further. SLIDE OF MORE REASONS

The other issue with "toppling" is that, in order to topple, you need to set up a force couple -- in the toppling building you have weight pulling all along its length, and you have a restoring force, equal to the weight, acting at the "hinge."

When the degree of tilt is very small, say as in light sway in the wind, the building behaves like a column. But when the angle is large, as the building tilts, it behaves like a beam. Beam strength is very different than column strength. Think about it this way: If I set up a vertical 2x4 stud, without any bracing or anything it can handle over 600 pounds balanced on its end. Now turn it sideways, resting on sawhorses, and try to put 600 pounds in the middle. Crack!

Very tall structures that topple often break apart before they finish. The best known examples are radio masts, which despite being extremely lightweight, high-performance structures, frequently kink and disintegrate due to leverage and their own inertia alone. A complex composite like a WTC Tower, one that has already lost its integrity to start tilting in the first place, doesn't have a chance.

 

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