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General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

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Doctor Evil said:
Sigh. Disappointed with the level of discussion here.
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Well, what do you expect x amount of pages into this discussion. In this thread and the other regarding Obama's speech, I have touched upon pretty much every issue that you brought forth, but alas, I do concede that you are more eloquent with words in putting all these matters into a more concise post. ;)

What we are up to in this thread at this moment, which isn't anything new, is the worrisome inclusion of Hamas into a unity government and what it means for any future negotiations. What this has resulted into is the usual jabberwockey about the Likud platform and subsequent attempt at moral equivalence.

First and foremost, as you've already mentioned, as did I, is the issue of having final status agreement points as a first step to peace negotiations. The adherence to previous agreements between the PLO/PA and Israel, and of course, the issue with the PLO/Hamas charter should be the first steps and a platform which should be worked off of.

Obama, perhaps because of the over-simplification of this conflict, thinks that he can solve this conflict by putting the cart in before the horse...
 
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Crossing the fenced border around Israel is not the wisest thing to do, the chances are high that you are blown up before you are shot. A suicidal protest I say, but they got the attention they wanted.
 
I think Obama has set the peace process back considerably. He pissed off Israel with talk of returning to the 1967 borders, and pissed off the Palestinians by not mentioning settlement freezes or right of return issues. Good luck getting them negotiating now...
 
mortimer said:
I think Obama has set the peace process back considerably. He pissed off Israel with talk of returning to the 1967 borders, and pissed off the Palestinians by not mentioning settlement freezes or right of return issues. Good luck getting them negotiating now...
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:confused: Now I've heard it all. It's all Obama's fault.
 
mortimer said:
I think Obama has set the peace process back considerably. He pissed off Israel with talk of returning to the 1967 borders,........
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no, he did not. Even in his speech on Thursday, he referred to the 1967 borders with land swaps.

this has been the essense of EVERY single peace negotiation since Camp David.

Taba says this.

The Geneva Conventions says this.

Even former Israeli PM himself, Ehud Olmert, offered the Palestestinians land swaps of around 5%...along the borders of 1967.

All that Obama did was say what every honest person has known since 1994.

do you REALLY expect there to be a final peace accord with Israel and the Palestinians, that does NOT include land swaps and be muchly based on the 1967 line?

why do you think the Hafrada Wall mostly follows the 1967 border? because Israel considers the border to be null & void??????????


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_West_Bank_barrier

The barrier is built mainly in the West Bank and partly along the 1949 Armistice line, or "Green Line" between Israel and Palestinian West Bank. 12% of the West Bank area is on the Israel side of the barrier.

If Israel truly considered the 1967 border to be null & void, and did not understand that the final boundary will include much of this border, they would have NOT built much of the Hafrada Wall on the damn border.

.......or do you think by building the Hafrada Wall mostly along the 1967 line, Israel is infact....anti-Israel?

220px-Westbank_barrier.png



how dare those racist, anti-Semitic, Nazi Israelis......building maybe 75% of the Seperation Wall along the 1967 Auschwitz Line!!!!!!

;)
 
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Thunder said:
no, he did not.
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I disagree.
Thunder said:
Even in his speech on Thursday, he referred to the 1967 borders with land swaps.

this has been the essense of EVERY single peace negotiation since Camp David.

Taba says this.

The Geneva Conventions says this.
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I agree. But are you going to disagree that Israel is pissed off at Obama? That the Palestinians are pissed off at Obama?

Thunder said:
Even former Israeli PM himself, Ehud Olmert, offered the Palestestinians land swaps of around 5%...along the borders of 1967.
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And we saw how far that got with the Palestinians...
 
mortimer said:
And we saw how far that got with the Palestinians...
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how come you aren't condemning Olmert for offering the Palestinians a state largely based on the 1967 borders?

how come you aren't calling Olmert a Judenrat for this treachery?

..oh, and btw...if was Israel who said no on that deal, not the Palestinians.
 
according to left-wing B'Tselem, only 8.5% of the West Bank is west of the Seperation Wall. so if the wall becomes Israel's new border, Israel will give back 91.5% of the West Bank to the Arabs.

treason!!!!!! ;)
 
Thunder said:
how come you aren't condemning Olmert for offering the Palestinians a state largely based on the 1967 borders?

how come you aren't calling Olmert a Judenrat for this treachery?
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Why would I? I essentially agree with it.

Thunder said:
..oh, and btw...if was Israel who said no on that deal, not the Palestinians.
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After massive rocket bombardments from Gaza. It was pretty obvious at that point that land for peace wasn't going to work.
 
Asking the Palestinians to give up their war is like asking them to give up Islam. It's their identity. Even though they've lost and it's a hopeless cause, they can't give it up.

Palestinians who openly talk of peace get accused of being Zionist collaborators. Even people who don't show sufficient enthusiasm for suicide jihad are accused of being "Zionist hands". There are Palestinians who'd like an end to the war, but their numbers are too small to be an effective force and they can't even express themselves freely.

There was a recent case which demonstrates the situation. There was a TV show in Israel which featured an Israeli doctor who saved the life of a Palestinian baby born with an immune system disorder. The mother said that she hopes the baby grows up to become a suicide bomber. Maybe she really thinks that. Maybe she needs that as cover for being accused of being too pro-Jew. Neither situation is good.

That's the main obstacle as I see it. Their culture is just too messed up to make peace a possibility.
 
Virus said:
Asking the Palestinians to give up their war is like asking them to give up Islam. It's their identity. Even though they've lost and it's a hopeless cause, they can't give it up.

Palestinians who openly talk of peace get accused of being Zionist collaborators. Even people who don't show sufficient enthusiasm for suicide jihad are accused of being "Zionist hands". There are Palestinians who'd like an end to the war, but their numbers are too small to be an effective force and they can't even express themselves freely.

There was a recent case which demonstrates the situation. There was a TV show in Israel which featured an Israeli doctor who saved the life of a Palestinian baby born with an immune system disorder. The mother said that she hopes the baby grows up to become a suicide bomber. Maybe she really thinks that. Maybe she needs that as cover for being accused of being too pro-Jew. Neither situation is good.

That's the main obstacle as I see it. Their culture is just too messed up to make peace a possibility.
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Change the word Palestinian to Jew there and see how that sounds.
 
Hmmm..lets try a little perspective here:

Asking the right-wing Zionists to give up stealing land and bulding illegal settlements, is like asking them to give up Judaism. It's their identity. Even though they've lost and it's a hopeless cause, they can't give it up.

Zionists who openly talk of peace get accused of being Arab-collaborators. Even people who don't show sufficient enthusiasm for settlements are accused of being "terrorist hands". There are Zionists who'd like an end to settlements & land confiscation, but their numbers are too small to be an effective force.

Their culture is just too messed up to make peace a possibility.
 
The greater Israel's atrocities the more antisemitic the people who mention them. - Matt Giwers current sig.

Giwers World, where all kikes are lampshades - Matt Giwers old sig

Remember, if you think he's anti-semitic, it's because of something Israel did. :rolleyes:
 
Sword_Of_Truth said:
The greater Israel's atrocities the more antisemitic the people who mention them. - Matt Giwers current sig.

Giwers World, where all kikes are lampshades - Matt Giwers old sig

Remember, if you think he's anti-semitic, it's because of something Israel did. :rolleyes:
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this thread really isn't about him, you know.
 
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Foreig...-t-back-down-on-Israel-Palestine-border-issue

I am proud to have a President who has the guts to tell the Israelis that the basis for the final Israel/Palestine border will be the 1967 line...with mutually-agreed upon land swaps.

I am proud to have a President who has the guts to tell the Palestinians that they will not get back 100% of the West Bank...or even 100% of East Jerusalem or the Old City.
 
Thunder said:
Hmmm..lets try a little perspective here:

Asking the right-wing Zionists to give up stealing land and bulding illegal settlements, is like asking them to give up Judaism. It's their identity. Even though they've lost and it's a hopeless cause, they can't give it up.

Zionists who openly talk of peace get accused of being Arab-collaborators. Even people who don't show sufficient enthusiasm for settlements are accused of being "terrorist hands". There are Zionists who'd like an end to settlements & land confiscation, but their numbers are too small to be an effective force.

Their culture is just too messed up to make peace a possibility.
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Who's saying this? Or is this yet another Thunder Strawman?
 
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