General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

[Jonnyclueless]

I am not sure if there are Israeli hater in this thread or not, but you realize that saying some action by a government were not correct and quite bad, is not the same as saying you hate the people inhabiting that country , right ?

Criticizing for example the foreign politic of the USA, does not make one an American hater.
If anything, that attempt of congruence between the two, is a very transparent attempt at deflecting the issue and avoid discussing it. Just call the person a xxx-hater , and there is no need to discuss it anymore, except as an irrational emotion.

A very transparent tactic. Too bad it usually works.

Making untrue and misleading claims IS a sign of hating. That's not criticizing. Criticizing would be presenting factual information and stating why it is wrong. Making up completely false claims and calling people evil is not criticizing.

What about the part where Israel fired warning shots, used rubber bullets, fired tear gas, but ended up having to shoot people after security forces were attacked? A bit of an important detail wouldn't you say?

But no, claiming that Israel just randomly goes to the borders and shoots people on the other side because they are evil and the US just bans anyone from stopping this evil killing is being critical?

Sorry, but that's about as ******** as it gets. We are not stupid.

And as someone pointed out, these same people who manufacture these complaints don't seem to take any issue with the very countries who actually ARE doing those things. Many countries are blatantly shooting protesters simply for protesting. Not a complaint form these people. But Israel defends themselves from attacks, and then they are evil.

At the very worst, we will come to find an Israel soldier or two committing a crime such as shooting a protester that did nothing. And unlike those other countries, those soldiers will be taken to trial and go to jail should such a crime be found.

The bigotry seen in these forums is sickening.

 

[Thunder]

Of course. Should the Jews do anything but sit back and let themselves be attacked, it's their fault. But even then I am sure it would be their fault.

didn't the world for the most part support Israel's defense of itself in 1948 and 1956?

from what I read, the tide started to turn when Israel conquered the WB, Sinai, and Gaza...and then started to build settlements in occupied land.

 

[Thunder]

When Palestinian demands for Israel's destructions resume after a pseudo-"peace" agreement, their first line would be, "we never recognized Israel is a Jewish state, so we now demand it accept millions of Arab refugees".

interesting..

so, when Israel settles 400,000 Israelis into the West Bank...its just fulfilling their God-given rights.

but if Palestinians want to settle hundreds of thousands of their people back into their property and homes, its genocide?

huh.

 

[Thunder]

so you do claim that israel is a jewish state?
that would certainly make non-jews second-class citizens.

apartheid, anyone?

are you saying all nation-states are Apartheid regimes, due to the mere fact of what they CALL themselves?

is the Czech Republic an apartheid state?

is the Irish Republic an apartheid state?

is the Arab Republic of Egypt, Syria, and Libya...apartheid states?

is the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan & Iran, apartheid states?

 

[Jonnyclueless]

Israel is occupying Gaza and Sinai? No wonder people are attacking them.

 

[Mycroft]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Ben_Gurion

Ben-Gurion also said:

All our aspirations are built upon the assumption — proven throughout all our activity in the Land — that there is enough room in the country for ourselves and the Arabs.

 

[Mycroft]

so you do claim that israel is a jewish state?
that would certainly make non-jews second-class citizens.

apartheid, anyone?

No. A name doesn't make anyone a second-class citizen. Specific policies do.

For example, England is a Christian nation, it even has an official church with their monarch at its head, yet non-Christians have equal rights there.

Could that be any more clear?

Edited to add: I really should learn to read ahead before responding.

 

[Mycroft]

Making untrue and misleading claims IS a sign of hating. That's not criticizing. Criticizing would be presenting factual information and stating why it is wrong. Making up completely false claims and calling people evil is not criticizing.

What about the part where Israel fired warning shots, used rubber bullets, fired tear gas, but ended up having to shoot people after security forces were attacked? A bit of an important detail wouldn't you say?

But no, claiming that Israel just randomly goes to the borders and shoots people on the other side because they are evil and the US just bans anyone from stopping this evil killing is being critical?

Sorry, but that's about as ******** as it gets. We are not stupid.

And as someone pointed out, these same people who manufacture these complaints don't seem to take any issue with the very countries who actually ARE doing those things. Many countries are blatantly shooting protesters simply for protesting. Not a complaint form these people. But Israel defends themselves from attacks, and then they are evil.

At the very worst, we will come to find an Israel soldier or two committing a crime such as shooting a protester that did nothing. And unlike those other countries, those soldiers will be taken to trial and go to jail should such a crime be found.

The bigotry seen in these forums is sickening.

QFT.

 

[A'isha]

I am sure everybody in this forum will strongly condemn this violent shooting of protestors in Egypt and Syria.

(Crickets)

Oh wait, no Jews to blame.

Can you please stop doing that?

How many here heard of Rachel Corrie? All of you.

That has more to do with Corrie being a young Western female. How many people can name any of the Palestinian protesters killed?

How many here actually know the name of anybody killed in the Syrian protests of a week ago? Hello? Hello?! Anybody home? Nobody?

Fuad Rajab, killed in the Syrian city of Homs by Assad's goons, during a demonstration just this past Friday.

As long as it's merely other "extras" shooting "extras", as in Egypt and Syria, nobody cares. Aren't Muslims sick of being the "red shirts" of the world?

Again, please stop with the "nobody" stuff.

 

[Skeptic]

Again, ANTPogo -- I don't mean you or people similar to you. In fact if there is anybody I am not surprised who does know people killed in Syria, it's people like you -- often critical of Israel but clearly not against its existence or safety.

I mean the crowd of so-called "anti-zionists" who are in reality antisemites. I would bet very good money the usual crowd neither knows nor cares if they can't blame the Jews -- look at their total silence in the theads talking about what's going on in Syria and Egypt in this forum.

 

[A'isha]

Again, ANTPogo -- I don't mean you or people similar to you. In fact if there is anybody I am not surprised who does know people killed in Syria, it's people like you -- often critical of Israel but clearly not against its existence or safety.

I mean the crowd of so-called "anti-zionists" who are in reality antisemites. I would bet very good money the usual crowd neither knows nor cares if they can't blame the Jews -- look at their total silence in the theads talking about what's going on in Syria and Egypt in this forum.

I know (and you are absolutely right about those people who are very vehement about Israel, but don't seem to care about anything else). I just wish you'd be more explicit about that when you do make comments like that, because not everyone reading these threads at any given time is aware of the context surrounding your comments.

 

[Skeptic]

So, hypothetically, changing the demographics of Israel via. Arab immigration would change the state's characteristic as 'Jewish'. Would a hypothetical change in Israeli demographics that occurred through natural population growth similarly change the state's 'Jewish' character?

Sure; but that's not the same thing. Not remotely.

To avoid the issue of partisanship let us take England. Hypothetically, it might become Muslim. According to current trends this might happen, say, ca. 2080 or so. Perhaps it will, perhaps it won't, perhaps an A-bomb will get us all long before. And who knows? If it happens England might cease to be officially a Christian country but might retain, say, the royal family. After all, when England had dominions that ruled a quarter of the globe, the vast majority of those under it weren't Christian, either. Or perhaps by then everybody will be de facto atheist so nobody will care about the formal religious designation. A million other things might happen.

But that eventuality due to demographics and people having children is not at all the same thing as someone who claim, like some extremists in England claim, that they want to use massive unchecked immigration as a weapon to force England to accept sharia and become the land of Islam, in short, as someone who uses demographics as a weapon against England.

 

[Skeptic]

I'll try to be more explicit, ANTPogo. And just between you and me I think you and I, and most of the western world, often cares more about what's going on in Israel for the most prosaic of reasons: it's a far better place for journalists than in Syria or Sudan (then again, that's not saying much).

 

[Thunder]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110516/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians

what does Hamas need to do before Israel can negotiate with them?

#1. they need to agree that the creation of a Palestinian state, based for the most part on the 1967 borders, will mean an end to the conflict and all territorial claims.

#2. they need to agree that as long as negotiations go on, there will be no military operations against the IDF or terrorist attacks upon Israeli non-combatants.

#3. they need to agree that any recognition of a Palestinian Right-of-Return will only involve 100,000 or so Palestinians, most Palestinians will settle in the new Palestinian state or receive full-citizenship in the nations where they reside. An international fund to compensate refugees for lost property will be set up.

#4. they need to acknowledge the right of Jews to visit their holy sites in the new Palestinian state, free of intimidation and violence.

#5. they must agree to allow any Israeli settlers who wish to remain in their homes within the territory of the new state, will have that right and will become dual Israeli-Palestinian citizens.


..but if Hamas cannot agree to these very common-sense ideas, then Israel really has little to talk about and needs to start considering alternative solutions...such as annexing all the land west of the Seperation Wall, accepting back zero refugees , and washing its hands of the WB until the Palestinians have a responsible govt.

 

[Aepervius]

Making untrue and misleading claims IS a sign of hating. That's not criticizing. Criticizing would be presenting factual information and stating why it is wrong. Making up completely false claims and calling people evil is not criticizing.

(SNIP)

I disagree. A lot of people make untrue and misleading claim without hating. They can simply be misleading themselves, or simply being blind for the other side argument without "hating the folk".

But beside that, you did not coutner the argument that I had that disliking or even heck hating a country policy does not mean you hate the folk. Unless they admitted somewhere they hate the folk, or you can read their mind, it is just a thrown conjecture from you.

And frankly, I see a lot of "locked" in position from both side on this forum, and a lot of "ignoring" what the "own" side do bad on both side.

 

[Aepervius]

Whould you say someone like that hates evil -- or hates France?

You mean they are american . How often do I read "cheese surrendering monkey" ? Man o manm o man, france must be really hated toroughly .

OK point taken, but I still think that hating is a strong word.

 

[Aepervius]

didn't the world for the most part support Israel's defense of itself in 1948 and 1956?

from what I read, the tide started to turn when Israel conquered the WB, Sinai, and Gaza...and then started to build settlements in occupied land.

I dunno, for people of my generation, there was no real turning point. More like a reckonning that there is no white side and a black side, but rather different shade of gray. For example I still see Israel justified in some of the way they defend themselves, but some of the way they used to do that I saw as unjustified.

Another example, I remember being a fervent supporter of the USA, they could do no wrong etc... Dreaming of the american dream when I was young. I have no idea when I stopped that , and saw a country like any other, might have been when I entered adulthood 25 years ago.

Nowaday I am turning toroughly pessimist.

 

[A'isha]

I'll try to be more explicit, ANTPogo. And just between you and me I think you and I, and most of the western world, often cares more about what's going on in Israel for the most prosaic of reasons: it's a far better place for journalists than in Syria or Sudan (then again, that's not saying much).

True.

I think that's also why, for instance, Egypt got a lot more media attention when protests there were going on than Syria and Libya are getting.

Libya especially is dangerous because of the active combat taking place there; one of the filmmakers of the phenomenal documentary Restrepo was killed during the fighting in Misrata, while he was documenting the rebellion against Ghadafi.

 

[Matt Giwer]

Blame the victim

We must call this child by its name – the reason there is no peace is because the Palestinians refuse to recognize Israel as the national state of the Jewish people."

No one else does but the victims must.

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

what does Hamas need to do before Israel can negotiate with them?

#1. they need to agree that the creation of a Palestinian state, based for the most part on the 1967 borders, will mean an end to the conflict and all territorial claims.

#2. they need to agree that as long as negotiations go on, there will be no military operations against the IDF or terrorist attacks upon Israeli non-combatants.

#3. they need to agree that any recognition of a Palestinian Right-of-Return will only involve 100,000 or so Palestinians, most Palestinians will settle in the new Palestinian state or receive full-citizenship in the nations where they reside. An international fund to compensate refugees for lost property will be set up.

#4. they need to acknowledge the right of Jews to visit their holy sites in the new Palestinian state, free of intimidation and violence.

#5. they must agree to allow any Israeli settlers who wish to remain in their homes within the territory of the new state, will have that right and will become dual Israeli-Palestinian citizens.

Removing the part of their charter wherein they pledge to exterminate the jews would be a nice gesture.