Split Thread The 9/11 Conspiracy Team

[Clayton Moore]

Wake up. Do you really think that as the first guy is attacked and taken by surprise (either the pilot or co-pilot) and he is bleeding out from his throat being slashed he's going to have the wherewithal to signal for a highjacking?! You think that whoever was attacked second would signal instead of attempting to defend himself? And you tell us to wake up.

I'm sure 1 out of 8 would have.

 

[tsig]

Wake up. All it would take would be 1 or 2 seconds to signal that a hijacking was in progress.

When the first knowledge you have of a highjacking is a blade slicing thru your throat your attention might falter a bit.

 

[alienentity]

I'm sure 1 out of 8 would have.

Flight 93 distress call #2 '"Mayday! Get out of here! Get out of here!' Sounds of some kind of struggle were transmitted.

That satisfies even your rather heartless and ignorant criteria.

Now please let those dead people at least have a bit of dignity, instead of dragging their tragic last moments into your twisted fantasies.

But you won't......

 

[Oystein]

Re: Ladmo on NORAD

I have read a lot of bitching going back and forth between Ladmo on one hand, and beachnut and others on the other.

May I suggest we cool down and see if there are a few facts that we can agree on?

Here are a few suggestions:

• NORAD had only 7 alert sites in the continental USA, two of them in the north-east
• The alert site closest to the first two hijackings (Boston to NYC) were alerted and scrambled and did take off
• Not until the second impact was it clear that a larger energency was underway
• All alert fighters were scrambled

Anything you disagree with?

 

[000063]

If you naive or otherwise trusters think that 9/11 was a series of Murphy's Law coincidences you're in for a rude awakening.

No, I think that it was a combination of what is, honestly, a diabolically clever AQ plan and an attack vector America wasn't prepared for. It's like expecting police to wear body armour that would protect them from a medieval mace.

 

[Oystein]

Yes, The 9/11 Conspiracy Team had no right to kill these innocent, unarmed people on 9/11 for their agenda and profits. Bin Laden was just the fall guy, bumped off to protect The Team.

The 9/11 Conspiracy Team (according to a recent theory)

Do you have a source? Where and when did this originate?
It's okay to outline a theory in a post like this without providing evidence for every single element in one go. However, it would be good to get an early feeling that it is backed by any evidence at all.

For the moment, let me concentrate on two elements of that theory:

* Bin Laden provided the hijackers, and told them to hijack 4 planes, land, and demand the USA get out of Arabia in return for the hostages.
...
* Rumsfeld had workers strengthen the Pentagon Wing wall for the impact.
...

Here is a rough timeline according to publicly available documents:

1991: Congress established the Pentagon Reservation Maintenance Revolving Fund for the expressed intent of renovating the Pentagon.
1994: The design of the Segment 1 (that's the part that AA77 crashed into) renovation was completed and reconstruction of the Basement began
1996: Osama Bin Laden moves from Sudan to Afghanistan, issues a Fatwa against the USA, and is presented a first draft of the plan for 9/11 by Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, but nothing came out of that at the time.
December 1997: Wedge 1 is vacated
January 1998: Construction begins on Wedge 1
late 1998 or early 1999: OBM gives approval to KSM. Around that time, US intelligence has first information about hijack plans
1999: Last revisions of design for Wedge 1
2000: Targets for attacks, including Pentagon, selected by Al Quaeda leaders
January 2001: Donald Rumsfeld sworn is as Secretary of Defense
February 2001: First tenants move back into completed Wedge 1

Your theory implies the temporal sequence
Al Quada plans hijacks -> Rumsfeld enters government along with other Bush appointees -> Pentagon renovation planned and executed.
The true sequence was
Pentagon renovation planned -> Al Quada plans attacks -> Pentagon renovation executed -> Rumsfeld becomes SoD.

I think this refutes that part of the theory.


Sources:
Blue: http://classic-web.archive.org/web/...enovation.pentagon.mil/history-renovation.htm
Purple: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Rumsfeld
Green: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planning_of_the_September_11_attacks

 

[NoahFence]

If you naive or otherwise trusters think that 9/11 was a series of Murphy's Law coincidences you're in for a rude awakening.

Correction - it's you people who think coincidences were everywhere. You've got this WTC 7 stuff nailed down, but can't come up with a plausible scenario that connects it to the events in Shanksville or DC.

So we're led to believe that you think those were coincidences, until you state otherwise.

 

[000063]

Do you have a source? Where and when did this originate?
It's okay to outline a theory in a post like this without providing evidence for every single element in one go. However, it would be good to get an early feeling that it is backed by any evidence at all.

For the moment, let me concentrate on two elements of that theory:



Here is a rough timeline according to publicly available documents:

1991: Congress established the Pentagon Reservation Maintenance Revolving Fund for the expressed intent of renovating the Pentagon.
1994: The design of the Segment 1 (that's the part that AA77 crashed into) renovation was completed and reconstruction of the Basement began
1996: Osama Bin Laden moves from Sudan to Afghanistan, issues a Fatwa against the USA, and is presented a first draft of the plan for 9/11 by Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, but nothing came out of that at the time.
December 1997: Wedge 1 is vacated
January 1998: Construction begins on Wedge 1
late 1998 or early 1999: OBM gives approval to KSM. Around that time, US intelligence has first information about hijack plans
1999: Last revisions of design for Wedge 1
2000: Targets for attacks, including Pentagon, selected by Al Quaeda leaders
January 2001: Donald Rumsfeld sworn is as Secretary of Defense
February 2001: First tenants move back into completed Wedge 1

Your theory implies the temporal sequence
Al Quada plans hijacks -> Rumsfeld enters government along with other Bush appointees -> Pentagon renovation planned and executed.
The true sequence was
Pentagon renovation planned -> Al Quada plans attacks -> Pentagon renovation executed -> Rumsfeld becomes SoD.

I think this refutes that part of the theory.


Sources:
Blue: http://classic-web.archive.org/web/...enovation.pentagon.mil/history-renovation.htm
Purple: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Rumsfeld
Green: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planning_of_the_September_11_attacks

Just to close up the wriggle room, I read an article in one of those magazines with a red border on the cover saying that OBL was planning an attack. That issue was published in either early 2000 or late 1999. It was probably mentioned earlier than that elsewhere.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,989958,00.html
Search results.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Flight 93 distress call #2 '"Mayday! Get out of here! Get out of here!' Sounds of some kind of struggle were transmitted.

That satisfies even your rather heartless and ignorant criteria.

Now please let those dead people at least have a bit of dignity, instead of dragging their tragic last moments into your twisted fantasies.

But you won't......

I think it's a matter of pushing a button. Pushing a button that is there to give the passengers the best chance to survive a hijacking. The families of those dead people deserve to know what prevented the pilots from pushing that button.

 

[Dave Rogers]

I think it's a matter of pushing a button.

Well, there's your problem. If you think there's a "Help, we're being hijacked!" button that the pilot can just press any time he feels like it, then you're starting from a childish fantasy, and you'll never get anywhere from there. If you made some effort to find out what was really involved in signalling that a hijack was in progress, you might have a better chance of learning something.

Dave

 

[funk de fino]

Yet not one of the pilots, all of whom were very experienced, signaled that a hijacking was in progress.


Hey, where are the interviews with the flight gate employees from 9/11?

Hey, where are the interviews with the airport flight controllers from 9/11?

Hey, where are the interviews with the airport employees who saw the hijackers on 9/11?

Where are the follow up interviews?

Any other newsworthy event is human interest bonanza.

Those type of interviews are all over the internet. I suggest you go find them. Stop making a fool of yourself.

heres one for luck.

SCARBOROUGH, Maine — A former U.S. Airways ticket agent who issued boarding passes to the terrorists who later hijacked a plane out of Boston on Sept. 11, 2001, says he felt guilty afterward.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,149635,00.html

 

[ladmo]

I have read a lot of bitching going back and forth between Ladmo on one hand, and beachnut and others on the other.

May I suggest we cool down and see if there are a few facts that we can agree on?

Here are a few suggestions:

• NORAD had only 7 alert sites in the continental USA, two of them in the north-east
• The alert site closest to the first two hijackings (Boston to NYC) were alerted and scrambled and did take off
• Not until the second impact was it clear that a larger energency was underway
• All alert fighters were scrambled

Anything you disagree with?

I can agree with everything you stated... no problem. I also agree that there has been crabby talk back and forth and I apologize for my involvement. This whole episode is a microcosm of how one comment devolves into a completely different topic... sort of like the old Gremie Grimey Gopher Guts scenario. In this case, Beachnut said that NORAD was not a policeman for USA skies (paraphrase) then it devolved into how many Generals do I want in jail. Frankly, I like Beachnut, Trutherslie, and Triforcharity et al but if I don't always agree with them ... a thread can get testy and the Twoofer card is played when it does not apply. Having said all of that... I agree with toning it down... Peace

 

[Oystein]

I can agree with everything you stated... no problem. I also agree that there has been crabby talk back and forth and I apologize for my involvement. This whole episode is a microcosm of how one comment devolves into a completely different topic... sort of like the old Gremie Grimey Gopher Guts scenario. In this case, Beachnut said that NORAD was not a policeman for USA skies (paraphrase) then it devolved into how many Generals do I want in jail. Frankly, I like Beachnut, Trutherslie, and Triforcharity et al but if I don't always agree with them ... a thread can get testy and the Twoofer card is played when it does not apply. Having said all of that... I agree with toning it down... Peace

Cool, thanks.
You see, I think some of that heated debate was more about semantics than substance. I don't think neachnut wants to imply that NORAD would under no circumstances scramble their alert birds for domestic, civilian inflight emergencies.

Anyway, while we wait if the other participants also agree to what I stated, let me try a bit of conjecture from what I stated earlier and see if we can agree on that, too:

• Since there were only 7 alert sites in the continental US, and all of them near the sea borders, I believe that no general standing operating procedures called for FAA to alert NORAD in case of inland hijackings, and for NORAD to then handle the incident. Reason: NORAD's assets would be very much too far away for incidents that happen in the central northern states
• Rather, requesting NORAD assistance for domestic incidents was an option
• Nearly all fighter scrambles in the years running up involved incidents out at sea, with the Payne Steward case being the (sole?) exeption, which did not involve NORAD assets

 

[Clayton Moore]

Well, there's your problem. If you think there's a "Help, we're being hijacked!" button that the pilot can just press any time he feels like it, then you're starting from a childish fantasy, and you'll never get anywhere from there. If you made some effort to find out what was really involved in signalling that a hijack was in progress, you might have a better chance of learning something.

Dave

Snotty reply?

I think it's a matter of pushing a button. Pushing a button that is there to give the passengers the best chance to survive a hijacking. The families of those dead people deserve to know what prevented the pilots from pushing that button.

4 digit code, and pushing the enter "button"
Do you want the code?

 

[Dave Rogers]

Snotty reply?

If you're going to throw around accusations of mass murder on the basis of stuff you've got wrong and can't be bothered to look up, you don't deserve any better.

4 digit code, and pushing the enter "button"

So, not just a matter of "Pushing a button that is there to give the passengers the best chance to survive a hijacking", is it? Now, how do you enter the 4-digit code, and how long does that take? Remember, a man's just cut your throat, and he can knock your hand away from the controls with his free hand. Think you can stay calm enough to get all four numbers when you know you'll be dead in a few seconds? Think you can fight off his attempts to stop you? Think you can do it at all before you pass out from loss of blood?

Dave

 

[Clayton Moore]

If you're going to throw around accusations of mass murder on the basis of stuff you've got wrong and can't be bothered to look up, you don't deserve any better.



So, not just a matter of "Pushing a button that is there to give the passengers the best chance to survive a hijacking", is it? Now, how do you enter the 4-digit code, and how long does that take? Remember, a man's just cut your throat, and he can knock your hand away from the controls with his free hand. Think you can stay calm enough to get all four numbers when you know you'll be dead in a few seconds? Think you can fight off his attempts to stop you? Think you can do it at all before you pass out from loss of blood?

Dave

ZZZZZZZZZ Your source?

Why would you say all 8 pilots had their throats cut?

I'm pretty sure all 8 pilots couldn't have been completely surprised and killed without one of them having time to enter and send the code.

 

[Oystein]

Snotty reply?
...

No.


This...

I think it's a matter of pushing a button. Pushing a button that is there to give the passengers the best chance to survive a hijacking. The families of those dead people deserve to know what prevented the pilots from pushing that button.

...was a snotty reply. You appeal to the families of the dead, yet you casually pull out your (wrong) reply out of your arse. That's low, that's really really low.

 

[Oystein]

ZZZZZZZZZ Your source?

Why would you say all 8 pilots had their throats cut?

I'm pretty sure all 8 pilots couldn't have been completely surprised and killed without one of them having time to enter and send the code.

May I pull one out of my arse, too?
Here it goes:
Maybe the hijackers specifically trained to not let the pilot and co-pilot do anything at all that could resist the hicacking effort.
Maybe the terrorists were well prepared for the moment and the flight crews were taken by complete surprise.
Maybe the hijackers sent in 4 trained assassins with weapons, and maybe the flight crew were only half as many without weapons.

Just guessing. But hey, if you can pull things out of your arse, maybe I can, too!


In the meantime: Have you figured out yet how long it takes to enter the code for hijack?

 

[NoahFence]

ZZZZZZZZZ Your source?

Why would you say all 8 pilots had their throats cut?

I'm pretty sure all 8 pilots couldn't have been completely surprised and killed without one of them having time to enter and send the code.

Are you under the impression that all 8 pilots were in communication with each other in real-time, at the same time?

 

[Dave Rogers]

ZZZZZZZZZ Your source?

Why would you say all 8 pilots had their throats cut?

I'm pretty sure all 8 pilots couldn't have been completely surprised and killed without one of them having time to enter and send the code.

Interesting how I need a source, but you can just be "pretty sure".

So let's try a different scenario. The hijackers grab one of the stewardesses, hustle her into the cabin with a knife at her throat, then say, "Get out of the seat right now, and don't touch any of the controls, or I kill her."

How's that squawk code reset looking now?

The simple answer is that there are plenty of trivially obvious ways that the hijackers can prevent the pilot from squawking 7500 if they've planned it in advance, because they're prepared and the pilots aren't. The fact that you choose not to bother to figure them out doesn't mean that the hijackers were stupid enough not to.

Dave