General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

[The Fool]

Article 119 says:



What am I supposed to be looking at?

Of course, what's the constitution worth of a corrupt, careerist gangster clique?

whats the Charter worth of a corrupt, careerist gangster clique?

 

[The Fool]

Argumentum ad populum.

no...its not the opinion of the masses that is being relied on. Its the balance of expert opinion which is not ....and never will be.....a fallacy to present in support of an argument.

 

[a_unique_person]

Right, where he made it clear that he thinks amending the Charter in writing is just too much to expect from the Palestinians. And then, just as claimed, tries to deflect with comments about the Likud party platform, as if that had any relevance at all the the issue at hand.

The issue of facing up to the problems on both sides is always deflected to be only problems with the Palestinians.

 

[a_unique_person]

Moral equivalence no matter how hard you're trying to back peddle.

WTF? Fool said what he said. I quoted him. Where did he say they were equivalent? Perhaps you could just once face up to the fact that Israel has it's own issues with creating a peaceful resolution to the problem, it's not all the fault of the Palestinians. The logic is juvenile. Find a fault with the other side. Do not consider anything else other than that as a valid topic of discussion. Repeat ad nauseum. Look where that attitude got South Africa.

 

[WildCat]

The issue of facing up to the problems on both sides is always deflected to be only problems with the Palestinians.

Which part of what agreement has Israel refused to comply with?

 

[WildCat]

sorry....not hard to find

http://en.wikisource.org/w/index.php?title=Constitution_of_Palestine_(2003)&oldid=2806134

That appears to have nothing at all to do with the subject at hand, could you explain the relevance?

 

[The Fool]

That appears to have nothing at all to do with the subject at hand, could you explain the relevance?

well...How about we talk about how the charter re-entered the thread? It had nothing to do with the subject at hand.

 

[bigjelmapro]

WTF? Fool said what he said. I quoted him. Where did he say they were equivalent? Perhaps you could just once face up to the fact that Israel has it's own issues with creating a peaceful resolution to the problem, it's not all the fault of the Palestinians. The logic is juvenile. Find a fault with the other side. Do not consider anything else other than that as a valid topic of discussion. Repeat ad nauseum. Look where that attitude got South Africa.

Rubbish and more rubbish. I've stated time and time again these issues Israel has and is faced with since this conflict started. A now the red herring of SA pops up again. Also, totally irrelevant. How many different ways can you invoke the apartheid allegation?

 

[Thunder]

http://www.haaretz.com/print-editio...dency-status-of-140-000-palestinians-1.360935

Israel admits is covertly cancelled the residency status of at least 140,000 Palestinian residents of the West Bank.

Can you say, ethnic cleansing?

 

[Thunder]

I've never seen you, or the Fool, or Firegarden, or DDT accuse Jordan of stealing Palestinian land.

I guess for one to be a thief one has to be a Jew right?

Why are we always only talking about Western Palestine? What about the Eastern side? Wasn't that "Palestinian land" too?

Here's a more objective, un-ideological map:

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a154/perdalis/PalestineMap-952x1024.jpg

That whole yellow part was also "Palestine". Now it's not, so where's the uproar? Where are all the defenders of Palestinians' right of return to their homeland?

The whole shebang is their "homeland is it not?

This is cute. Do you want to know why its cute?

Because what is now Jordan was officially part of the Mandate Palestine for two years, and was split off from the rest of Palestine before the first High Commissioner of Palestine took control.

Basically, Jordan was never really part of Palestine.

 

[Mycroft]

Try to leave out the rubbish...

Yes, do.

yes, skeptic goes quiet when asked to clarify this....Maybe he is actually saying "no palestinian state" because something he doesn't believe can happen will happen....thats always a possibility I suppose.

There is nothing to clarify. You continually misrepresent a statement of intent, Arafats staged plan, as a prediction of success. Stop doing that. You don’t need to believe a plan will succeed in order to understand the hostility behind it, nor to take precautions.

requirements for what? Statehood? I believe its the right of the palestinians to have a state. I don't put requirements on rights. It should just be done....then....the responsibilities of statehood should be required of them, as it is with everyone else.

That’s amazingly honest of you.

false..

Thank you Wildcat for doing the work in showing this for the obvious falsehood that it is.

oh dear..you have broken out into an impersonation of "skeptic" again....still, its always nice to hear about what I "really" think.

And yet it seems to be affirmed by this very post.

my version? I don't see any difference in both of our opinions about violence against Israel. It should stop.

There seems to be a huge difference of opinion in urgency. Saying that it must stop sometime in the future after statehood is achieved, but not sure how long after and those pesky details can be ironed out later on…seems to lack urgency to such a large degree that it approaches not actually believing violence against Israel needs to stop at all. Further, we also seem to have a huge difference of opinion on the rights of Israel as a country to take action to prevent such violence, where I believe it should be the same as any other country, while you pay lip service but squawk over any specific action.

I believe that statehood and sorting the living conditions of Palestinians is the first step.....

Sort it out with who? Israel? Why should Israel sort out anything with Palestinians if they can’t get peace for it? If they can’t get anything for it?

...just like the founding of Israel was the first step required in addressing the situation of the Zionist movement.

No, fool. The founding of Israel was the culmination of the Zionist movement.

Why didn't the world say that Violence should stop there before any consideration of a state of Israel?

Because they were actually trying to found a state, and nobody was running around saying their real purpose was to destroy the UK.

And on the topic of no promises and no timetables....I'm assuming that this is the framework you put on the "reconciliatory measures"?

That seems like a non-sequitur. What sort of meaningful timetable could Israel impose that depends on Palestinian actions?

 

[a_unique_person]

Rubbish and more rubbish. I've stated time and time again these issues Israel has and is faced with since this conflict started. A now the red herring of SA pops up again. Also, totally irrelevant. How many different ways can you invoke the apartheid allegation?

The primary one would be the Likud charter.

 

[Thunder]

The primary one would be the Likud charter.

The PLO and the PA has yet to officially and publicly recognize the State of Israel.

The Israeli Knesset has yet to officially and publicly declare their recognition of the right of the Palestinians to a state in most if not all of the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem.

Maybe both sides can agree to just cough up what the other side wants?

 

[Virus]

Arabs started it. With Nazis.

 

[Matt Giwer]

rubbish, the route of the wall (for example) has been changed due to High court orders. The amount of facts needing to be ignored to prop up your use of the term "dictatorship" grows by the hour.

One more time an impeccable Israeli source supports what I have said and allows Izziehuggers to live up to their handles.

W. Bank teen kept in custody despite alleged beating

Boy from Bil'in rarrested on Friday on suspicion of throwing stones during the weekly protest against the separation fence says soldiers injured his hand who 'kicked and attacked' him.

...
The boy, a resident of Bil'in who can only be identified as A.H., was arrested on Friday on suspicion of throwing stones during the weekly protest against the separation fence, which cuts across the village's lands. He was brought before the military judge, Maj. Sharon Keinan, at the Ofer Prison's military court on Sunday.

If I did not know izziehuggers are willfully ignorant of Israel I would have to assume they are deliberately lying about Israel.

 

[The Fool]

One more time an impeccable Israeli source supports what I have said and allows Izziehuggers to live up to their handles.

W. Bank teen kept in custody despite alleged beating



If I did not know izziehuggers are willfully ignorant of Israel I would have to assume they are deliberately lying about Israel.

if I need to remind you....your claim is that there is a "dictator" that has ultimate say over the route of the wall....in what way do you imagine what you posted supports this claim?

 

[Matt Giwer]

So...just to reiterate:

You agree the Mavi Mamara raid was "piracy".

It is not clear what one calls it when a state does it but it did not differ from piracy right down to theft of property.

You agree Gaza is still "occupied".

I gave an Israeli supreme court decision that says it is occupied. Clearly the occupation is criminal as it is in violation of Hague V and Geneva IV. I find it amusing how many people claim to have an opinion who have never read the relevant documents.

You agree that Israeli disengagement can correctly be termed "apartheid".

These days the term Apartheid is applied when discrimination is a matter of law. It is a matter of law in Israel and in Gaza, East Jerusalem, West Bank and Golan Heights. Other terms can be applied. The US has many descriptive terms for it when it is not a matter of law from the pre-civil rights days.

Do you have a preferred name for both de facto and de jure discrimination? Israel claims to be a modern democracy but if all citizens are not equal in all respects then it is not.

What do you call it? Yiddish?

Your only real disagreement with (some) of the anti-Israel left here is you go an extra step in calling the West Bank a "military dictatorship".

As it is ruled by an unelected military officer and the people are completely and totally at his mercy in all regards and have no recognized civil or human rights, what would you call it? Would you prefer prison?

Does that sound about right to you? If so, then I think people do you a disservice in portraying you as an extremist. I think your views are more mainstream than you get credit for.

I am saying nothing that is not being published in Israeli newspapers which are online in English.

I find the depth of ignorance of Israel exhibited by its defenders inexplicable in simple terms. Is it studied ignorance? Are they so infatuated with the idea they are incapable of recognizing anything that disagrees with their fantasy Israel? Or are they really playing advocate for Israel and deliberately lying?

At least the rednecks are honest about it. They don't sugar coat it. They want Jesus back and know he will deal with them when he does.

 

[Matt Giwer]

if I need to remind you....your claim is that there is a "dictator" that has ultimate say over the route of the wall....in what way do you imagine what you posted supports this claim?

Let me remind you of your claim the ISC decision on the Be'lin fence route disproved my assertion. I pointed out that decision has been ignored since it was issued. You denied that. I produced a URL from today's Haaretz referring to the on-going protest to get the fence moved. So your only supposedly factual objection has been shown false.

Do you have anything you think might support your position? Do better this time. Do not embareass yourself again.

 

[Virus]

Stop feeding the neo-Nazi, Fool.

 

[Matt Giwer]

What Palestine should do

Start sending property tax bills to the criminal squatters. The tax can only be paid in Palestinian currency. Of course they will refuse to pay. Then Palestine can foreclose the properties for non-payment.

At the same time all Israeli construction such as roads, utility right of ways and the like are taxed and foreclosed.

This establishes lawful claim to the taxed property, lawful under the laws of Palestine. Seems to me as Israel cannot demonstrate a military necessity for the squattertowns they have no grounds for refusal to pay nor to fight foreclosure.