Merged DDWFTTW in a “Real” Wind

[windgrins]

I'm willing to discuss bad physics concepts!

You have still not fully grasped the idiocy. Humber believes that objects can remember past acceleration. He also believes that they can continue to accelerate without force. It makes bowling in the Humberverse very interesting.

You would be surprised at what I understand about this! Take a look at post #5248 if you don't think I do!

As long as Humber is actually willing to make concrete statements that have some semblence of reason, I have no problem discussing his points. Bad physics can be discussed. Gibberish can't.

WindGrins

 

[ThinAirDesigns]

Minor quibble, I just went back an looked.... and counted (the replacement with the reinforcement), and the prop shaft sprocket has 65t.

Are you sure of the 23t ?

Thanks Llyricist -- I was going by memory and should have looked back on the blog myself.

Yes, we used 23t on the drive axle.

JB

 

[Dr. Keith]

Let's see: we have a large truck with the brakes off. We give it a push to set it rolling at, say, 5 m/s. We throw a tennis ball at it in the direction of travel, at, say, 10m/s. The tennis ball hits the rear of the truck. We have now increased the kinetic energy of the truck by hitting it with something that has less kinetic energy.

Perfectly elastic collision:

V1, m1 = Ball 0.1kg?
V2, m2 = Truck 10,000kg?

V2 final = (2m1/m1+m2)V1

Inelastically, work will be done on the ball, and none on the truck.

V2 final = (2(0.1)/(0.1+10,000))10m/s = 0.0002m/s

My God the Ball almost stopped the truck!!!!!

That Ball is Freaking Magic!!!!

Oh, I gave the simplest possible case for your consumption, where the truck is stationary. Now look up "inelastic collisions", then entropy...etc.
Had you done that earlier, you would not have found yourself to be the willing victim of a fraud.

The case was soooo complex that humber had to simplify his answer to the point of not answering the case as stated. Either that or the formula he looked up didn't deal with V2 > 0. I really don't care which at this point.

On pointing this out as sarcastically a possible, while also showing that even for his case there was some transfer of energy, he just claims we don't understand. What don't we understand?

I'm gonna start smiling like WindGrins if I read much more of this . . .

 

[jduffy77]

You would be surprised at what I understand about this! Take a look at post #5248 if you don't think I do!
WindGrins

That post make me quite certain you have not even begun to understand. I believe you will get there soon enough though. Humber has written 8 million words on this subject. His foolish arguments number in the hundreds of thousands; they cannot be condensed down to a single post.

 

[humber]

You have still not fully grasped the idiocy. Humber believes that objects can remember past acceleration. He also believes that they can continue to accelerate without force. It makes bowling in the Humberverse very interesting.

Nothing will save you from having traded Manhattan for colored beads.

The average acceleration is approximately 0.11ms-2, but 0.35ms-2, when pushed by hand. More than 3 times the maximum acceleration achieved in the wind. The final velocity is the sum of A, B and C, so indeed, the push added directly to the total, and the measurement point was determined by the limited run length. More evidence of cheating and direct manipulation of the rules and conditions.

 

[jduffy77]

Nothing will save you from having traded Manhattan for colored beads.

The average acceleration is approximately 0.11ms-2, but 0.35ms-2, when pushed by hand. More than 3 times the maximum acceleration achieved in the wind. The final velocity is the sum of A, B and C, so indeed, the push added directly to the total, and the measurement point was determined by the limited run length. More evidence of cheating and direct manipulation of the rules and conditions.

Humber for at least the 100th time your numbers are wrong. You forgot to add in all the acceleration when the cart was being towed to the test site.

ETA: Also I thought they were tracking some kind of small rodent and the measurement point was determined by where he took a dump. You are saying it was determined by the run length?

 

[Dr. Keith]

Nothing will save you from having traded Manhattan for colored beads.

The average acceleration is approximately 0.11ms-2, but 0.35ms-2, when pushed by hand. More than 3 times the maximum acceleration achieved in the wind. The final velocity is the sum of A, B and C, so indeed, the push added directly to the total, and the measurement point was determined by the limited run length. More evidence of cheating and direct manipulation of the rules and conditions.


[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=22105&stc=1&d=1304973806[/qimg]

Wait, isn't that spork's oversimplification of the data? Wasn't that all wrong? Hummer told me not to believe it and even overlaid it on the "real" data to show me it was false. Now it is the basis of his argument?

 

[humber]

Humber for at least the 100th time your numbers are wrong. You forgot to add in all the acceleration when the cart was being towed to the test site.

ETA: Also I thought they were tracking some kind of small rodent and the measurement point was determined by where he took a dump. You are saying it was determined by the run length?

I have already pointed out to NALSA that any record will be dependent upon the initial pushing, so no comparison with future contenders can be made.
You will not be such a contender, for the reasons that you so often make obvious.

 

[jduffy77]

Wait, isn't that spork's oversimplification of the data? Wasn't that all wrong? Hummer told me not to believe it and even overlaid it on the "real" data to show me it was false. Now it is the basis of his argument?

What is so funny is the real data shows even less average acceleration than Humber thinks. The chart he posted includes no data whatsoever from the whole lunch break.

 

[jduffy77]

I have already pointed out to NALSA that any record will be dependent upon the initial pushing, so no comparison with future contenders can be made.
You will not be such a contender, for the reasons that you so often make obvious.

Why not just force all contenders to push then? My plan was to pull the cart up to WS using trained elephants (shameless crowd pleasing ploy), are you saying they will be changing the rules to disallow this?

 

[jduffy77]

I have already pointed out to NALSA that any record will be dependent upon the initial pushing, so no comparison with future contenders can be made.
You will not be such a contender, for the reasons that you so often make obvious.

See what I mean Windgrin? He thinks that the acceleration after the push was tainted by the push. The cart remembered it was pushed and therefore accelerated more easily afterwards.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

I have already pointed out to NALSA that any record will be dependent upon the initial pushing, so no comparison with future contenders can be made.

Oh, please tell us you told them this over the phone, so we can all imagine the puzzled silence followed by laughter from the other end of the line.

 

[windgrins]

A subtle point.

See what I mean Windgrin? He thinks that the acceleration after the push was tainted by the push. The cart remembered it was pushed and therefore accelerated more easily afterwards.

Yes, It was obvious from his post that that was what he was thinking. It is also obvious that this is complete nonsense for anybody with any physics knowledge at all.

Given that these two positions are so vastly separated, it is sometimes difficult to find an appropriate level of tact to point out the obvious.

WingGrins

 

[Jack by the hedge]

See what I mean Windgrin? He thinks that the acceleration after the push was tainted by the push. The cart remembered it was pushed and therefore accelerated more easily afterwards.

So Chuck Yeager really didn't break the humberverse sound barrier in '47. The B-29 did most of the pushing and the X-1 only did the last little bit!

 

[windgrins]

Point well made!

So Chuck Yeager really didn't break the humberverse sound barrier in '47. The B-29 did most of the pushing and the X-1 only did the last little bit!

Yes and the space shuttle doesn't really orbit because the rocket boosters accelerate it quite a bit. NASA really should not say it is orbiting.

What is really amusing is that the BB is perfectly capable of reaching the push speed all on its own unlike the X1 and Shuttle. It just doesn't do it quite as fast.

Point well made.

Interestingly, perhaps we should throw Humber a bone. With these systems, they do need their initial stages to get to the point where they can achieve their design goal. So it is not completely insane to think that earlier speed doesn't matter in all systems because it does in these systems. However, in the case of the BB, it doesn't and its obvious why not.

WindGrins

 

[Jack by the hedge]

The average acceleration is approximately 0.11ms-2, but 0.35ms-2, when pushed by hand. More than 3 times the maximum acceleration achieved in the wind.

Just as well it wasn't attempting some sort of acceleration record, then. Given that it wasn't, what is the relevance of this? If your point is that it's a really inefficient design I would only remark that it accelerates infinitely faster than your own cart, which has yet to move.

The final velocity is the sum of A, B and C, so indeed, the push added directly to the total, and the measurement point was determined by the limited run length.

Imagine a car which can achieve exactly 200mph. If you push it at, say, 2ms^-2 to 190mph then you stop pushing and its own engine takes over, how fast can it go? Completely serious question. (Wouldn't be serious with anyone else, but perhaps we can establish some kind of common ground).

More evidence of cheating and direct manipulation of the rules and conditions.

Which rules were broken? Which were manipulated and what were the relevant consequences?

 

[jduffy77]

Imagine a car which can achieve exactly 200mph. If you push it at, say, 2ms^-2 to 190mph then you stop pushing and its own engine takes over, how fast can it go?

Too easy for Humber, he knows this one cold. 390 mph.

 

[CORed]

Like humber's treadmill cart I have a suspicion that he will never see the data that supposedly says the cart is a fraud either.

If we do see that data, almost certainly it will solidly prove that the cart works, even though humber will claim the opposite.

 

[humber]

Too easy for Humber, he knows this one cold. 390 mph.

It is truly a monument to the success of technological society, that even those who don't know the meaning of words like "start" and "end", can own a computer. We should all celebrate the mere survival of the Carteer, as general proof of the benevolence of modern industrial society.

 

[Horatius]

[Peanut Gallery] So, does anyone have a program of the players in this thread? It looks like there are at least three camps, each of which thinks the others are crazy, but I'd just like to be sure[/Peanut Gallery]