Bachmann cranks the hyperbole knob to 11

[JoeTheJuggler]

You seem to be saying the current economic crisis is no more than the stuff in pretty much every election.

Yes. The disagreement on how to deal with the debt is nothing new, and the crisis is in no way at all comparable to the Holocaust.

That's why making that comparison is outrageous.

That's why painting economic policies you disagree with as Fascism is a scurrilous rhetorical device.

There is simply no direct or indirect assertion or claim of similitude between the Holocaust and the debt or erosion of freedoms mentioned.

Sure there is. The phrase "Why didn't somebody do something?" first applied to the Holocaust (from the story about his daughter writing that into the guestbook or whatever) and then applied to contemporary U.S. issues (the debt and the erosion of freedom).

It's pretty straightforward.

And again, that's why the Anti-Defamation League is complaining.

 

[dc1971]

Oh well. Didn't expect you to answer my question.

You mean the question that you really didn't want an answer to?

 

[dc1971]

But we are seeing here quite the reverse, a huge grab of wealth from the kids, and a mean spirited, mocking attitude along with that.

Well, I see just the opposite! I see a mean spirited woman. Her name is Michelle Bachmann!

 

[dc1971]

I'm not even sure this is a "democratic or republican" issue but more of a 30 years problem in the making, but to be mocking those who bring up it's seriousness....

However Michelle Bachmann, and other people mind you, have no intention of serious debate when they compare things to the Holocaust or Hitler, or Nazi Germany, or World War II. It's a typical knee-jerk reaction that conservatives like to use when they know they've lost an argument.

 

[mhaze]

However Michelle Bachmann, and other people mind you, have no intention of serious debate when they compare things to the Holocaust or Hitler, or Nazi Germany, or World War II. It's a typical knee-jerk reaction that conservatives like to use when they know they've lost an argument.

Hmmm....

The problem with that is simply that the comparision was between the actions of the "greatest generation", and the current generation. If you argue they are the same because the "greatest generation" freed the people from the concentration camps....well that was not their goal in the final phases of the war. They didn't know much if anything about those camps. The goal was to win the war and eliminate the aggressors (nasty socialists), who were serious threats to peace (and liberty, freedoms, etc).

Yes. The disagreement on how to deal with the debt is nothing new, and the crisis is in no way at all comparable to the Holocaust.

That's why making that comparison is outrageous.

That's why painting economic policies you disagree with as Fascism is a scurrilous rhetorical device

Nobody has done that, now you are making things up. The "greatest generation" who fought their way to Berlin and discovered the concentration camps were quite surprised.

As I noted, no analogy or direct similitude is made between the Holocaust and the debt crisis. As you noted, the speaker references several items including loss of freedoms as issues that the current generation might have to answer for from the next generation.

 

[tyr_13]

As I noted, no analogy or direct similitude is made between the Holocaust and the debt crisis. As you noted, the speaker references several items including loss of freedoms as issues that the current generation might have to answer for from the next generation.

How do you know without video of the speech?

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Re Bachmann:

The problem with that is simply that the comparision was between the actions of the "greatest generation", and the current generation.

That's just false--or at least incomplete in that it leaves out which actions. The actions were in regard to stopping or preventing the Holocaust. It certainly wasn't about, for example, having lots of babies.


Re Huckabee:

As I noted, no analogy or direct similitude is made between the Holocaust and the debt crisis.

Yes, you already said that, and it's still false.

In both cases the comparison was made between asking a question about why people didn't prevent the Holocaust and why people didn't prevent very large debt building up.

So the Holocaust and the huge debt is in comparison.

I already noted that Huckabee didn't only compare the Holocaust to debt. He also compared it to the erosion of freedoms that will happen if the right wing doesn't take action. I find that comparison just as outrageous.

Nothing like the Holocaust is going to happen in the U.S. if Huckabee or Bachmann fail to win the presidency or at least get their policies passed into law.

 

[mhaze]

Re Bachmann:

That's just false--or at least incomplete in that it leaves out which actions. The actions were in regard to stopping or preventing the Holocaust. It certainly wasn't about, for example, having lots of babies.
.....

Bachman????

I was referencing the Huckabee article, get your facts straight. I commented on the article for which source material was available. The simple reason is that an argument based on facts is then possible.

As for your idiotic assertion that "actions were in regard to stopping or preventing the Holocaust", I grant you that peoples' actions have unintended consequences, and some of those are on occasion, good.

Huckabee's comments were not referencing unintended consequences but purposeful protection of liberty and freedom.

Try again.

 

[mhaze]

...Re Huckabee:...the comparison was made between asking a question about why people didn't prevent the Holocaust and why people didn't prevent very large debt building up.

So the Holocaust and the huge debt is in comparison.
....

If that is so, then please provide the sentence where this comparison is made. ....

You cannot, because it is not there.

As I noted, the paragraphs are separated by a paragraph referencing the "Greatest generation", and the second use of the metaphor references the greatest generation.

And I've granted you, that some dull witted souls could miss that, or could read an article which conveniently left out the middle paragraph, thus creating a connection that buttresses your theory on false premises.

In a sense, I like it that you protect and defend wrong interpretations, and the right of the lesser mortals to make them. That's after all, the job of the progressive elite.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Bachman????

I was referencing the Huckabee article, get your facts straight.

See post 125. I quoted your response to a comment about Bachmann.

ETA: You were responding to dc1971, and best I can tell dc1971 has only stayed on Bachmann's Holocaust comments, which explains post 126 where dc1971 thought you were talking about Bachmann while you were talking about Huckabee. But I quoted your comment in 125 where you were responding to dc1971's comment that specifically mentioned Bachmann.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

If that is so, then please provide the sentence where this comparison is made. ....

I've already done this.

The sentence where the comparison is made is the question, "Why didn't somebody do something?" That question was first applied to the Holocaust and then applied to contemporary political issues--the debt and the more general crusade of the extreme right wing.

It's not nearly as complicated as you're trying to make it.

ETA: Do you deny that the first occurrence of "Why didn't somebody do something?" was about the Holocaust? Do you deny that the second one was the one Huckabee said people in that room were going to prevent? This implies that without their actions, the U.S. is headed for something comparable to the Holocaust. That is outrageous and inflammatory and is an intellectually dishonest rhetorical device.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

I commented on the article for which source material was available. The simple reason is that an argument based on facts is then possible.

Yes, I note your continual rejection of the AP story as source material. It's baffling.

I also note your continued refusal to answer my question: Do you think the AP story has faked quotes or is otherwise misleading?

If so, what's your evidence?

If not, why then isn't it valid source material?

 

[mhaze]

Yes, I note your continual rejection of the AP story as source material. It's baffling.

I also note your continued refusal to answer my question: Do you think the AP story has faked quotes or is otherwise misleading?

If so, what's your evidence?

If not, why then isn't it valid source material?

Well, you've seen in the above my noting that the story on Huckabee was or could be misleading, because of the omission of a key paragraph. I don't think it's necessary to imply deceit or nefarious purposes to simply assert original source material is superior.

I've noted how you admitted to not understanding Huckabee's comments about the "greatest generation". Why should I presume a reporter did?

What you are really doing here is engaging in circuituous reasoning based on biased premises. You are saying "I like my conclusion and it's based on some news stories so let's not dig further because I like my story like it is".

 

[mhaze]

I've already done this.

The sentence where the comparison is made is the question, "Why didn't somebody do something?" ......

There is nothing complicated about it except your inferences as to meaning and content.

There is no direct comparison made, and no stated similitude. As I already noted you could allege a indirect comparison, an "allusion of similitude". And as I already noted, I like your position as protector of the weak minded, the inferior, those who would misunderstand and whose feelings would be hurt:

....As I noted, the paragraphs are separated by a paragraph referencing the "Greatest generation", and the second use of the metaphor references the greatest generation.

And I've granted you, that some dull witted souls could miss that, or could read an article which conveniently left out the middle paragraph, thus creating a connection that buttresses your theory on false premises.

In a sense, I like it that you protect and defend wrong interpretations, and the right of the lesser mortals to make them. That's after all, the job of the progressive elite.

​

But to protect the weak and their wrong view, you mis state Huckabee's speech and leave conveniently out the section about the 'greatest generation". Thus you are in agreement with Huckabee's warning, that there is a possibility that this generation is not great.

While he stands in opposition to that view, you embrace it and cater to it, with the presumption that the audience is second rate both in aspiration, intelligence and capability. Such an audience only needs predigested pap. They certainly have no use for actual original sources.

I rather disagree with that.

 

[varwoche]

You see, I like to work with original sources.

This is what I call a Charlie-the-Tuna post ... trying to say the right things so that Starkist will pick him, when everyone can see that he's posing.

 

[mhaze]

This is what I call a Charlie-the-Tuna post ... trying to say the right things so that Starkist will pick him, when everyone can see that he's posing.

I would give you credit unlike some others, for getting the concept of "allusion of similitude", and flipping it back, instead of slogging forward in a mud of confusion, missing half the story, not noticing the flanking maneuvers, but believing none the less, dogmatic in faith and righteousness, that mediocrity would indeed prevail.

 

[Dorian Gray]

Thank you for at least trying and not stubbornly defending idiocy.

You have a little problem. You've taken separate paragraphs, and joined them into one to imply continuity which was not in the kansas city article.

That's called "making things UP".



Here is the excerpt without your made up changes.

But he suggested that the next election would determine the future of the country, by telling a story about a comment his daughter wrote in a guest book after his family visited a Holocaust memorial in Israel years ago.


"Why didn't somebody do something?" Huckabee said she wrote.


"Today, you will not find a spunkier activist than my daughter, and I don't worry about her but I sometimes worry about us," Huckabee said, referring to conservatives who don't mobilize fully in national elections and for other political causes. "We cannot afford to be a generation that leaves our children with a huge debt and a very erosion of our values."
​

Read more: http://www.kansascity.com/2011/04/30/2838992/huckabee-criticizes-obama-at-nra.html#ixzz1LcE4QQdT
​

Okay, mhaze, you are completely incorrect and owe me an apology. You quoted literally the same exact passage that I did (my quote starts one line earlier, however), and the texts are absolutely identical in every way. Substantiate your claim that I made anything up or made any changes whatsoever.

I'm waiting. And you should be ashamed of yourself for making up this lie after demanding proof for umpteen posts. Is that what you have to resort to when you are utterly proven wrong? Quote the same exact thing and claim it's different somehow? Look, I'll do a line-by-line comparison, you intellectually dishonest cretin.

He spoke mostly about how he had come to Pittsburgh to "celebrate America and celebrate its values" - including God, family, and a Second Amendment meant to safeguard freedom, not just hunting and target-shooting.

I quoted this, but you didn't for some reason.
On with the comparison - mine italicized, yours not

But he suggested that the next election would determine the future
But he suggested that the next election would determine the future

of the country, by telling a story about a comment his daughter wrote
of the country, by telling a story about a comment his daughter wrote

in a guest book after his family visited a Holocaust memorial in Israel
in a guest book after his family visited a Holocaust memorial in Israel

years ago.
years ago.


"Why didn't somebody do something?" Huckabee said she wrote.
"Why didn't somebody do something?" Huckabee said she wrote.

"Today, you will not find a spunkier activist than my daughter, and I don't
"Today, you will not find a spunkier activist than my daughter, and I don't

worry about her but I sometimes worry about us," Huckabee said, referring
worry about her but I sometimes worry about us," Huckabee said, referring

to conservatives who don't mobilize fully in national elections and for other
to conservatives who don't mobilize fully in national elections and for other

political causes. "We cannot afford to be a generation that leaves our
political causes. "We cannot afford to be a generation that leaves our

children with a huge debt and a very erosion of our values."
children with a huge debt and a very erosion of our values."

There. I couldn't make it any easier for you to see how incorrect you were, and how dishonest you are in the face of defeat. You asked for a quote that constituted proof, I provided it, and instead of "Prestige-ing", you decided to try this BS claim that I "made things up". You fail again.

Checkmate.

 

[Dorian Gray]

There is nothing complicated about it except your inferences as to meaning and content.

There is no direct comparison made, and no stated similitude. As I already noted you could allege a indirect comparison, an "allusion of similitude". And as I already noted, I like your position as protector of the weak minded, the inferior, those who would misunderstand and whose feelings would be hurt:

....As I noted, the paragraphs are separated by a paragraph referencing the "Greatest generation", and the second use of the metaphor references the greatest generation.

And I've granted you, that some dull witted souls could miss that, or could read an article which conveniently left out the middle paragraph, thus creating a connection that buttresses your theory on false premises.

In a sense, I like it that you protect and defend wrong interpretations, and the right of the lesser mortals to make them. That's after all, the job of the progressive elite.

​

But to protect the weak and their wrong view, you mis state Huckabee's speech and leave conveniently out the section about the 'greatest generation". Thus you are in agreement with Huckabee's warning, that there is a possibility that this generation is not great.

While he stands in opposition to that view, you embrace it and cater to it, with the presumption that the audience is second rate both in aspiration, intelligence and capability. Such an audience only needs predigested pap. They certainly have no use for actual original sources.

I rather disagree with that.

Oh, really? Lead by example, then. Put your money where your mouth is - or don't you like the taste of copper?

 

[mhaze]

,you intellectually dishonest cretin. ...

I share your basket of horrors not, but thanks for the invite.

Okay, mhaze, you are completely incorrect and owe me an apology. You quoted literally the same exact passage that I did (my quote starts one line earlier, however), and the texts are absolutely identical in every way. Substantiate your claim that I made anything up or made any changes whatsoever....

Sure. You took out the paragraph breaks, creating the appearance of continuity where it didn't exist in the Kansas City story.

But I already mentioned this...

You have a little problem. You've taken separate paragraphs, and joined them into one to imply continuity which was not in the kansas city article.

That's called "making things UP".

​

So what exactly is not clear about my point?

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

In what way is an "allusion of similitude" not a comparison?

And comparing competing ideas about the federal budget and the perceived "erosion of freedoms" of today to the Holocaust is preposterous, inflammatory and offensive and is intellectually dishonest rhetoric.

Again, none of the issues that will be important to the 2012 presidential elections are new. And none of them are in any way similar to or comparable to the Holocaust.