Merged DDWFTTW in a “Real” Wind

[humber]

Energy can be stored by pressurizing a gas in a cylinder.

Not without stressing the cylinder walls, and you have forgotten that is where the containment force comes from. There is energy stored there.

If I put a piston and cylinder with a gas in it between the two faces of a clamp-face a and b. One side of the clamp is attached to the earth, the other to a threaded screw attached to the earth. Now I don't tell you which side of the clamp is attached to earth and which side is attached to the threaded screw and I put pressure on the piston with the clamp. I can certainly rig my clamp so that both jaws move equally as I apply the pressure so no difference there.

And?

Which is it Humber-Clamp face a or b putting the energy into compressing the gas in the cylinder? They both have the same pressure on each face by definition so which one is the energy coming from?[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_488654dc016c256936.png[/qimg]

Static force is not energy. You could have saved your self all that self-polishing by simply putting a brick on to the ground and using the molecular bonds of the solid, rather than the gas, to make the same inane point.
Another failed amplifier challenge.

 

[3point14]

As if. All Carteers have is a simple-minded confection of physics that has been inflated you a crank, and you bought it. It's that simple.
You can carry on congratulating yourself for as long as you please. The trial data says you have bought fool's gold.

Ah well, I tried.

I'm sure you'd get it if you opened your mind a little though. Don't feel bad though, I'm sure you're not alone in not quite grasping it.

 

[humber]

Clearly no one is disputing that the energy is coming from outside the system. That is not in question.

But neither face side is different from the other nor does either have different forces. So one must conclude the energy into our gas is entering through both plates-the earth side and the screw side.

No, it comes from the power source that is turning the screw.

Otherwise you are saying that even though the plates supply exactly the same amount of force, they don't equally contribute to the energy being supplied to compress the gas. An obvious contradiction. clearly, no acceleration of the object-no unbalanced force. This is very analogous to the cart. There are two points where forces enter the system equally once the cart is at a steady state-the wheels and the propeller. Both components contribute equally as energy paths-just as a keel and a sail on a boat do.

Bilge.

 

[humber]

Ah well, I tried.

I'm sure you'd get it if you opened your mind a little though. Don't feel bad though, I'm sure you're not alone in not quite grasping it.

Don't bother to try on my part, or think you have anything to teach. You are defending your cult, that is all.
So let's be clear about that. There is no way that I will ever accept your ideas.

 

[69dodge]

[...] how would you explain the tornados that just tore through much of the South? Was the surface of the earth spinning wildly around in many different places, causing those wind funnels? You see, you can take these batty reference frame transformations too far, and arrive at all sorts of incorrect conclusions.

No, the surface of the earth wasn't spinning wildly around in many different places.

Yes, you can take reference frame transformations too far.

You're only supposed to change from one inertial frame to another, not from an inertial frame to a non-inertial frame. Everyone agrees that physics in an inertial frame differs from physics in a non-inertial frame.

If one frame is inertial, so is any other frame that's moving at constant velocity relative to the first.

 

[humber]

It sounds like you are having trouble with the meanings of some of the words here.

Sure. Innumerate carters know all.

 

[69dodge]

[...] we're talking about a normal wind in which it would be possible to run a basic sail cart as already described: a square sail set on a chassis with freely-turning wheels. Let's say the wind is blowing at 5 m/s from west to east. If we use a frame of reference also moving at 5 m/s from west to east to observe the sail cart, where is the kinetic energy of the sail cart coming from?

I'm not sure I understand the question. How fast is the cart moving?

 

[Myriad]

And you at the same time for no cost. As I have now pointed out several times, it is a rolling road, in a wind tunnel. The same blunt denial applies to all Carteerian arguments.
The car is tethered so it does not get blown away or dragged by the belt. The belt is to simulate ground effects, that are not present in a fixed floor wind tunnel. Without the (proposed) fan, it tests only for ground effect, but in a limited way. BMW have similar belt/fan combo, that is actually in use.

The wind tunnel portion ("fan") of the WindShear facility is in no way "proposed." The entire facility has been operational for about three years. (Yes, the phrasing of two bullet points on one page of their web site suggests otherwise. I've brought that to their attention, in the process of verifying the facility's actual completion dates and current status, so maybe that wording will be corrected.)

The cars under test are indeed tethered, for safety and convenience (as testing whether the engine works can be done separately and with much less expense, and the way the belt is constructed requires pressure pads to remain exactly underneath the wheels to bear the vehicle's weight). However, there is no doubt whatsoever that a powered vehicle can remain in place on a moving belt with a headwind so that is not a relevant issue.

The fact remains that a treadmill and wind tunnel combination is being used to test high-precision high-performance cars under realistic conditions, including all aerodynamic and ground effects, without the car ever moving relative to the earth's surface. If results from such testing were not directly applicable to the road (or race track), no one would be using this facility and no one would have built it in the first place.

Galilean relativity remains valid when a treadmill is involved. A fact which should surprise no one.

Respectfully,
Myriad

 

[humber]

The wind tunnel portion ("fan") of the WindShear facility is in no way "proposed." The entire facility has been operational for about three years. (Yes, the phrasing of two bullet points on one page of their web site suggests otherwise. I've brought that to their attention, in the process of verifying the facility's actual completion dates and current status, so maybe that wording will be corrected.)

The cars under test are indeed tethered, for safety and convenience (as testing whether the engine works can be done separately and with much less expense, and the way the belt is constructed requires pressure pads to remain exactly underneath the wheels to bear the vehicle's weight). However, there is no doubt whatsoever that a powered vehicle can remain in place on a moving belt with a headwind so that is not a relevant issue.

The fact remains that a treadmill and wind tunnel combination is being used to test high-precision high-performance cars under realistic conditions, including all aerodynamic and ground effects, without the car ever moving relative to the earth's surface. If results from such testing were not directly applicable to the road (or race track), no one would be using this facility and no one would have built it in the first place.

Galilean relativity remains valid when a treadmill is involved. A fact which should surprise no one.

Respectfully,
Myriad

Blessed are the excuse-makers.
You lost that one big time. The belt is only for ground effect.

 

[humber]

You're only supposed to change...

"you're only supposed to think about what's in The Scriptures"

 

[Myriad]

You lost that one big time. The belt is only for ground effect.

Lost what?

The facility tests the aerodynamics of race cars (including ground effects). The car never moves relative to the ground during the test. Yet the tests work and are directly applicable to the car in racing conditions, that is, driving along the track.

Respectfully,
Myriad

 

[humber]

The treadmill creates controlled conditions. The ability reliably to recreate ideal conditions is obviously convenient. If you are trying to observe a particular effect, it's handy not to have to wait for the weather to deliver the ideal wind. This is not the same as creating a different situation from that which can be found outside. I suspect you understand that.

That's interesting. The cart moves laterally across the belt when there are no lateral external forces. So all that motion is a result of the cart.
Not at all equivalent, but a spurious and unrelated force.

 

[Michael C]

I'm not sure I understand the question. How fast is the cart moving?

Well, let's say for example that in the ground frame the simple sail cart is moving at 3 m/s in the 5 m/s wind, in the same direction as the wind. So in a frame where the air is at rest, the sail cart is moving at 2 m/s in the same direction as the ground. What I want profpangloss to tell me is where he thinks the kinetic energy of the sail cart is coming from in this frame.

 

[humber]

Lost what?

The facility tests the aerodynamics of race cars (including ground effects). The car never moves relative to the ground during the test. Yet the tests work and are directly applicable to the car in racing conditions, that is, driving along the track.

When the fan in running. Denial is strong in the carteer. It was one picture that made you jump to the wrong conclusion.

The belt is a surface that actually generates wind motion. It has nothing to do with relative motion, nor the TM. It damages your case, because it is quite clearly moving from the front to the rear, as the car move forwards in still air. The TM has an identical flow, but for a downwind cart, so is wrong.

There is no claim anywhere on the site that the car can be said to be in motion and the word traveling is put between quotation marks.

So, you lost that one.

 

[Myriad]

When the fan in running. Denial is strong in the carteer. It was one picture that made you jump to the wrong conclusion.

The belt is a surface that actually generates wind motion. It has nothing to do with relative motion, nor the TM. It damages your case, because it is quite clearly moving from the front to the rear, as the car move forwards in still air. The TM has an identical flow, but for a downwind cart, so is wrong.

There is no claim anywhere on the site that the car can be said to be in motion and the word traveling is put between quotation marks.

So, you lost that one.

Lost what one?

You've emphasized my point. The facility tests the aerodynamics of race cars (including ground effects). Race cars are tested for their ability to race, not for standing still. The car never moves relative to the ground during the test (hence, why "traveling" is in quotation marks). Yet the tests work and are directly applicable to the car in racing conditions, that is, driving along the track.

Respectfully,
Myriad

 

[humber]

Lost what one?

You've emphasized my point. The facility tests the aerodynamics of race cars (including ground effects). Race cars are tested for their ability to race, not for standing still. The car never moves relative to the ground during the test (hence, why "traveling" is in quotation marks). Yet the tests work and are directly applicable to the car in racing conditions, that is, driving along the track.

Respectfully,
Myriad

The car is attached to the frame. The belt moves, not the car.
The TM is already debunked, so why are you bothering? The trial data will kill the cart off for good.
If you think there is a defense other than whining, you are mistaken.

 

[windgrins]

Love those one word answers!

No, it comes from the power source that is turning the screw.


Bilge.

I love your one word answers such as the one above. It can be translated as:

"I have no rational, logical, or scientific answer that disputes what you alleged. So I'll just disagree in a condescending way." or

"I got nothing".

WindGrins

 

[jadebox]

The belt moves, not the car.

If you were in the car and not able to see out the windows, could you tell if you were in the wind tunnel sitting in place on the moving belt or if you were actually in a car on a road driving straight without changing speed or direction? If so, how?

-- Roger

 

[humber]

I love your one word answers such as the one above. It can be translated as:
WindGrins

All the energy come from the source that compresses it and not from clamps.
A confusion of force and work.
Another blinding error on par with the PE free balloon

 

[windgrins]

Humber: "I got Nothing."

Energy can be stored by pressurizing a gas in a cylinder.

Not without stressing the cylinder walls, and you have forgotten that is where the containment force comes from. There is energy stored there.


And?



Static force is not energy. You could have saved your self all that self-polishing by simply putting a brick on to the ground and using the molecular bonds of the solid, rather than the gas, to make the same inane point.
Another failed amplifier challenge.

So you are saying that the compressed gas in the cylinder which started out uncompressed has no energy once the clamp has squeezed it? If one opened a petcock on the cylinder and let the compressed air out, it couldn't do any work?

Gee, why did the manufacturer put an electric motor on my air compressor? It sure seems to me that it move things around a lot (dust, leaves, air) when I let the compressed air out of the nozzle.

Or, are you really saying:

"I got nothing."

Regards,

WindGrins