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Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

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Nick Terry said:
You mean at Treblinka, Belzec or Sobibor. Ukrainians weren't deployed at Auschwitz except briefly in spring 1943.
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Then I stand corrected. Who was employed at Auschwitz then? (I am not currently in the presence of my library.)
 
Saggy said:
If you read Hoess's confession, you'll discover.......
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But wait. Earlier you said Hoess was tortured for his confession. But when it suits you, you claim to quote from it. So does that now mean you consider Hoess' confession valid?
 
Wroclaw said:
Then I stand corrected. Who was employed at Auschwitz then? (I am not currently in the presence of my library.)
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This depended on the phase. In the 'Bunkers' phase the SS seem to have done all the guarding and cajoling during the actual gassing, then brought in the Sonderkommandos afterwards to clean up. Also in this phase, SS doctors did not usually carry out the actual selections but were merely present as per regulations for executions.

With the new crematoria beginning in March 1943, this began a new phase. SS doctors began to carry out the actual selections on a systematic basis, and the Sonderkommandos were brought in to the process more than hitherto. I think their involvement increased over time.

The changeover made sense because the Bunkers were not located in a closed complex and had to be sealed off by a substantial guard force. With the new crematoria, guards were still necessary to secure the transport on arrival (and would have been necessary no matter what you were doing). Up to May 1944 selections took place on the old ramp, outside the camp, and then the condemned were escorted into the camp on foot and by truck guarded by SS men. From March 1943 the condemned were then taken into the crematoria zone which was behind barbed wire.

Once inside the enclosed zone there was less and less need for heavy security, because the condemned were more and more trapped. Once inside the undressing room, then there was virtually no way out and deception was going to be more effective than brute force.

From May 1944, selections took place on the new ramp inside the camp, i.e. the prisoners needed much less guarding because the barbed wire fences and guard towers did that for the SS. This was also when prisoners were assigned to help the new arrivals. These prisoners were not from the Sonderkommandos but from the Kanadakommando which processed property.

There were thus at least three different phases and three different but evolving sets of procedures. The first phase affected fewer than 200,000 victims, the second phase also about 200,000 victims, and the final phase slightly over 400,000 victims. Another 200,000 victims died inside the camp or were selected as 'Muselmaenner' inside the camp, and were thus incapable of offering serious resistance.

Yet there are accounts and sources which indicate that for all four groups, i.e.

- victims selected on arrival at the old ramp and taken to the 'Bunkers'
- victims selected on arrival at the old ramp and taken to the crematoria
- victims selected on arrival at the new ramp and taken to the crematoria
- victims selected inside the camp, as Muselmaenner or in the Gypsy and family camp actions

there were occasions when the orderly procedures broke down. There is a documented breakout attempt in the Bunkers phase and other reports of unrest and resistance; the 1943-44 phase saw an attempt at a revolt/mutiny among the condemned ijn the undressing room which led to the shooting of SS NCO Schillinger; the 1944 phase saw more attempts to break out and flee as well as the refusal of Greek Jews to join the Sonderkommando; and there was resistance to the liquidation of the Gypsy camp.
 
Edited by Tricky: 
Edited response to modded post.
 
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Nick Terry said:
This depended on the phase. In the 'Bunkers' phase the SS seem to have done all the guarding and cajoling during the actual gassing, then brought in the Sonderkommandos afterwards to clean up. Also in this phase, SS doctors did not usually carry out the actual selections but were merely present as per regulations for executions.

With the new crematoria beginning in March 1943, this began a new phase. SS doctors began to carry out the actual selections on a systematic basis, and the Sonderkommandos were brought in to the process more than hitherto. I think their involvement increased over time.

The changeover made sense because the Bunkers were not located in a closed complex and had to be sealed off by a substantial guard force. With the new crematoria, guards were still necessary to secure the transport on arrival (and would have been necessary no matter what you were doing). Up to May 1944 selections took place on the old ramp, outside the camp, and then the condemned were escorted into the camp on foot and by truck guarded by SS men. From March 1943 the condemned were then taken into the crematoria zone which was behind barbed wire.

Once inside the enclosed zone there was less and less need for heavy security, because the condemned were more and more trapped. Once inside the undressing room, then there was virtually no way out and deception was going to be more effective than brute force.

From May 1944, selections took place on the new ramp inside the camp, i.e. the prisoners needed much less guarding because the barbed wire fences and guard towers did that for the SS. This was also when prisoners were assigned to help the new arrivals. These prisoners were not from the Sonderkommandos but from the Kanadakommando which processed property.

There were thus at least three different phases and three different but evolving sets of procedures. The first phase affected fewer than 200,000 victims, the second phase also about 200,000 victims, and the final phase slightly over 400,000 victims. Another 200,000 victims died inside the camp or were selected as 'Muselmaenner' inside the camp, and were thus incapable of offering serious resistance.

Yet there are accounts and sources which indicate that for all four groups, i.e.

- victims selected on arrival at the old ramp and taken to the 'Bunkers'
- victims selected on arrival at the old ramp and taken to the crematoria
- victims selected on arrival at the new ramp and taken to the crematoria
- victims selected inside the camp, as Muselmaenner or in the Gypsy and family camp actions

there were occasions when the orderly procedures broke down. There is a documented breakout attempt in the Bunkers phase and other reports of unrest and resistance; the 1943-44 phase saw an attempt at a revolt/mutiny among the condemned ijn the undressing room which led to the shooting of SS NCO Schillinger; the 1944 phase saw more attempts to break out and flee as well as the refusal of Greek Jews to join the Sonderkommando; and there was resistance to the liquidation of the Gypsy camp.
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SS doctors began to carry out the actual selections on a systematic basis

That's as dumb as saying SS doctors climbed to the top of the gas chambers for the highly technical task of dumping in Zyklon B.

While looking up Kanadakommando I found this testimony.
Screaming corpses aside, see how many blatant lies you can find.
http://www.degob.hu/english/index.php?showarticle=2017#_edn2

Psychological burdens

Women assigned to the Kanadakommando were working under better circumstances than the

Hungarian deportees sorting luggage in the Kanada
average, and with less brutal treatment. They were not threatened by hunger either, which was one of the main anxieties of the Auschwitz prisoners. Yet they paid dearly for their relatively high chance of survival. The thirty blocks of Kanada II in Birkenau (Sector BIIg) were located between Crematoria III and IV; prisoners working there had a good vantage point to see the massacre going on in Crematorium V as well as in the reactivated, temporary gas chamber (Bunker 2).

Sixteen young women from Munkács who worked in the white kerchief unit reported on their memories in a collective protocol in 1945. Sári Moszkov was the oldest at 35 years old, while the youngest was Vera S., 14 years old. "This work was basically not difficult but the conditions under which we worked were awful. The crematorium was in front of us, and we could see how they selected each transport that arrived, we could see the elderly and children entering the gate of the crematorium, we could hear the horrible screams but we never saw anyone coming out. On the whole, it was easy for us because we had great quantities of stolen food but no one could eat it hearing all those screams, breathing an air that was stinking of burnt human flesh."[17]

Mrs Koltay from Budapest arrived with the first Kistarcsa transport to Birkenau.
Words of the survivors - link center

No one could eat it hearing all those screams, breathing an air that was stinking of burnt human flesh

We had to watch all the transports marching right into the gas chambers

We worked with the clothes of dead people. We found documents and photos in their pockets.
When she was assigned to the Kanada, she thought she would be taken to the crematorium, but she had to sort clothes instead. "Treatment and rations were quite okay, but we lived in an indescribable state of mind because we had to watch all the transports marching right into the gas chambers ... Once, when I was passing the crematorium I saw in dismay a huge truck full of corpses, and we could hear screams and cries for help. Our state of mind in these times could not be described. We often saw them opening the doors of cattle cars and corpses were literally falling out of the cars. A great many left the cars mad. It belongs also to one of the unforgettable memories of my life when I saw ca. 30 elderly men and women on the huge truck of which the canvas was turned up by the wind as they were heading towards the gas chamber. In the court of the crematorium I saw elderly people sitting and eating at tables, waiting for their destiny to unfold. It was also horrible for me to see a young mother among the selected people as she was breastfeeding her baby kept in her arms, walking towards the crematorium."[18]

It occurred that they found the corpses of suffocated babies, who had been hidden by their mothers who had misgivings.[19] Other times, dead babies were found among the piles of clothes left in the dressing rooms of the gas chambers.[20]

The worst moments were when the women who were sorting luggage found belongings of their murdered family members. A girl from Alsóverecke found the clothes of her 7-year-old sister. Rella Katz and her sisters sorted the luggage of their mother and younger brother.[21] The Grünfeld sisters stole from their own suitcases the photograph of their father, who was murdered in the gas chamber. "We hid it in our shoes and that was how we kept it for a year, which was quite a thing because they searched us all the time ... We still have the photo even if it is torn and tattered. It is the only memory that remained of our parents."[22] Erzsébet S., a nurse from Beregszász, witnessed that naked women selected out during a camp selection were taken to the crematorium on trucks. In one of the groups she recognised her grandmother and several relatives.[23]
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Matt Giwer said:
Israel declares there was no Holocaust Extermination: 27 million Jews survived the holocaust

It is elementary actuarial statistics.

Of course the numbers could be just to inflate the money demands

Israel sets Holocaust damages at $240 billion
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http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Are_any_Holocaust_survivors_still_living

Are any Holocaust survivors still living?


Yes. Most of the survivors who are still alive were young, in many cases very young, at the time of the Holocaust. Many years ago I met a woman who had been born in January 1945 at Auschwitz, in the camp, shortly before it was liberated by the Soviet Army. Her parents were extremely lucky in that they had been sent to Auschwitz exceptionally late. Obviously, she had no recollection of the camp, but she did remember antisemitism in the Poland of her childhood. She and her parents migrated to Britain in 1950.

One of the best known survivors still alive is Elie Wiesel.
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How does a pregnant woman survive in a death camp?
 
Matt Giwer said:
I present arithmetic. I am certain that is not above your ability to understand. I agree I may have overestimated you.
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I would just prefer someone other than you to be backing up your argument. But seeing you are so obviously clever can you tell me how many people can be buried in a 300 yard x 300 yard by 4 yard pit
 
Clayton Moore said:
Am I correct in surmising that almost all of the Jewish survivors who lived till 1995 were certainly children during the Holocaust. Weren't all the children killed because they couldn't work?
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If they were not then we can scratch that idea as a lie spread by some holophiles. Means anyone who says it is untrue can be cited as an authority next time another holophile says it is true.

Holophiles will argue two mutually exclusive things to defend their faith but refuse to challenge fellow believers.

Also we can find the source claiming children were killed because they could not work and conclude everything from that source is a lie under the principle of lying in one, lying in all.

But then holophiles have convinced themselves it is all mystical and beyond human comprehension and similar nonsense.
 
MG1962 said:
I would just prefer someone other than you to be backing up your argument. But seeing you are so obviously clever can you tell me how many people can be buried in a 300 yard x 300 yard by 4 yard pit
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Why would I bother with that until someone produces physical evidence of something that size? Physical evidence, ground penetrating radar, tons of bones, that sort of thing. Want to take a shot at it? You count the skull and compare it to the calculation. It will be a good way to test the holography.
 
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