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Merged DDWFTTW in a “Real” Wind

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The benefit of Three years + experience of exposure to Humber!

No need for that. I just happen to know how hard it is not to respond to such powerfully incorrect statements. It took me a long time to realize that I never need to point out that humber is wrong or lying, since everyone that reads more than a page or two knows that he's always wrong or lying.



Indeed. I've spoken with him several times. He was always polite and open-minded. He did accept that DDWFTTW is real, but never accepted the treadmill as a valid transform. I still have little doubt that he would if we spent some more time on the topic, but he's a busy guy like most of us, and I bothered him enough.

I'm amused. I've read hundreds of pages of "he's wrong or lying" and I still fell victim.

Now we know what the "Chinese Water Torture" is about.

We still have Micheal C keeping his cool!:cool:

WindGrins:D (apologies to Dr. K :))
 
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I'm amused. I've read hundreds of pages of "he's wrong or lying" and I still fell victim.

Now we know what the "Chinese Water Torture" is about.

Humber is more like a goat used in Roman Tickle Torture. It's funny but eventually becomes painful when overdone.
 
Yes a link to Camps e-mail was posted several times. He now says that DDWFTTW doesn't necessarily violate any conservation laws. Humber not only omits that key part when he quotes Camp email, he deliberately quotes Camp's earlier embarrassingly wrong statements that claim the opposite.

I wonder why humber hates Camp so much.

He trashes the TM and so many, says that if the energy is there, then ddwfftw is not a violation. That means gradients etc.
ddw in a constant direct flow is a violation. That rules out the TM, and anything related to it. The remaining possibility of using variable winds accounts for the trial result, with the addition of not being ddw at all.
 
Spork-My favorite Humberism-Ignorance, Inattention, Bad Physics, Hubris-In two lines!

My favorite Humberism:

Ignorance, Inattention, Self Contradiction, Bad Physics, and Hubris. All in two lines. Shakespeare couldn't have written it tighter!

OK Humber,

What was originally stated was the NB balloons have no PE.

you believe NB balloons have PE.

Here's a tank of water with a NB sphere within. Without taking it out of the tank or changing the water level in the tank (because this is what is defined as the closed system), Illustrate how the sphere has PE or can do work.

Again, within the system. You don't get to take it out of the tank.

WindGrins:)

Humber:

"Hold the sphere where it is. Remove the water and then let it fall.
Then put the sphere on the bottom, and remove the water, and then let it fall. That may alert even you to your error."

WindGrins:D
 
No need for that. I just happen to know how hard it is not to respond to such powerfully incorrect statements. It took me a long time to realize that I never need to point out that humber is wrong or lying, since everyone that reads more than a page or two knows that he's always wrong or lying.
Your lack of technical response speaks for you.

Indeed. I've spoken with him several times. He was always polite and open-minded. He did accept that DDWFTTW is real, but never accepted the treadmill as a valid transform. I still have little doubt that he would if we spent some more time on the topic, but he's a busy guy like most of us, and I bothered him enough.

Yes, you did bother him a lot over a period of months. Pleading for him to change his mind in your favor.
 
My favorite Humberism:

Ignorance, Inattention, Self Contradiction, Bad Physics, and Hubris. All in two lines. Shakespeare couldn't have written it tighter!



Humber:

"Hold the sphere where it is. Remove the water and then let it fall.
Then put the sphere on the bottom, and remove the water, and then let it fall. That may alert even you to your error."
That's right. If the first had no PE, it would not fall.

Got you on the balloon and the 10 story building, which you failed to mention, and the trivial 20 second amplifier.
 
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humber said:
Drela's idea is to ...

A.T said:
There is no similarity between what Drela claims, and what Spork claims.
No carteer or Spork has even attempted to refute that, other than by the means you have just shown. There are no cartoons in his paper, but math, and that explains why neither of you have been able to address the paper.

Perhaps if you or TAD bother a sufficient number of academics, you may be able to winnow some more vague support from what falls from the table.
 
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Yes, we all know he cannot do Galilean transforms of three velocites. He demonstrated it in the MAKE article already.

You really swallowed that snake-oil, because you think it allows you to make open criticism of qualified academics like Dr Camp, on the basis that you have some imaginary but ineffable ability.
 
There is no similarity between what Drela claims, and what Spork claims.
No similarity that your primitive word matching can detect.

There are no cartoons in his paper, but math, and that explains why neither of you have been able to address the paper.
We don't have to adress it. You disagree with his conclusion.
 
You really swallowed that snake-oil, because you think it allows you to make open criticism of qualified academics like Dr Camp, on the basis that you have some imaginary but ineffable ability.
You really swallowed that snake-oil, because you think it allows you to make open criticism of qualified academics like Dr Drela, on the basis that you have some imaginary but ineffable ability.
 
humber never heard the aphorism about finding yourself in a hole, Or if he has, he either thinks the converse is "really" true, or he completely failed to comprehend it.
 
Apologies for a brief de-rail. I've been off grid for several days, and am way behind on this thread. Ten new pages; holy cow!

Anyway, on wednesday morning my remote farm took a direct hit by a tornado. My partner and I are fine; our house was miraculously spared, yet the hardwood forest that surrounds us was tragically torn up, with thousands of large trees snapped and up-rooted in an event that lasted about 30 seconds. The phone poles also snapped. Fortunately (I guess) our place was the only area in our county that took a direct hit, so we had the full attention of the local road and power crews. With a stunning effort of men and machines, they had us back in action in 2 days, although the wreckage surrounds us in the forest.

The event sure got me thinking about the wind!
The goofy playground 'toy' I 'invented' and built last year, which rests on a single point, was un-fazed by 110mph winds that blasted it.
Adjacent trees snapped like twigs.

Here's an old you-tube link to the gizmo, for any that might like to see what I'm talking about. Again, apologies for this interruption. Link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVyuQchUdiE

(btw, the swing part of the device has a load of aprox. 110 lbs these days. Putting my girlfriend on it was mostly about winning a bet from a skeptical friend, whom insisted it would never work. Seeing it behave in the tornado gave me a small thrill. its an unlikely structure, which is also the most stable structure I've built. it maintains less than 1/10th square inch of contact with the ground and is only connected by gravity.)

For anyone curious about this whacky piece of architecture, I have a couple more you-tubes that show several other proto-types and a tongue-in-cheek discussion of the principles. Pm me for the links, if you like.

end of de-rail.
 
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Imagine the wind as a stream of tennis balls, all moving at close to the same speed. (This is in some ways a poor model for actual wind, where the velocity distribution of the component particles is much wider, and only net pressure matters on the macro scale. But it does simplify things. I'll point out, later, where the simplification might cause some trouble.)

What you're saying is, you want to see, from the ground reference frame, forward-moving tennis balls (wind) catching up to and hitting some part of the cart, being slowed down and so providing a push to make it go faster or at least maintain speed.

Except for the part about "catching up" which will need to be refined a bit, this can be done.

So, we start by building a cart with a big tennis racket mounted in the back, face-on to the wind. Put this cart into the tennis-ball current, and it will start moving, as tennis balls hit the racket.

But, when it gets close to wind speed, fewer tennis balls per unit time catch up to the racket and hit it, and when they do the relative speed is very small so they no longer give it much of a push. When the total net force is no longer greater than frictional losses, the cart won't go any faster. If you were to push the cart to wind speed, no tennis balls would hit the racket at all, and if you pushed it faster, tennis balls would start hitting the front of the racket and slowing the cart down.

The way to get around this involves two factors: one, the face of the racket has to be placed at an angle; and two, the racket has to be moving laterally relative to the cart; that is, in a plane perpendicular to the cart's trajectory.

We could rig some kind of mechanical forehand-arm to sweep the tennis racket side to side across the back of the cart while holding it at one angle when going left to right and a symmetrical angle when going right to left. But it's easier to just spin the racket around by the handle (on an axis perpendicular to the handle). If that sounds a bit unbalanced, we can start with a two-headed racket, with a head at each end of the handle, and spin it by the middle of the handle. The axis is perpendicular to the handle, and oriented parallel to the cart's trajectory.

That takes care of the motion, now we must consider the angle. One possible angle (call it zero degrees) is for the racket heads to be flat in the plane that they're spinning in. But that gives us no advantage (or any real difference at all) from the single stationary racket.

Another possibility is for the racket heads to be turned 90 degrees from the previous case. That turns the device into essentially a sideways paddle wheel. That would also be ineffective: it would bat any tennis balls that caught up with the cart (or that the cart caught up with) off in all different directions but it would only ever accelerate them in the plane perpendicular to the cart's trajectory, giving no benefit regardless of the apparent wind speed.

So instead, we twist the two heads of the racket so that each is at an angle in between those two cases, say 30 degrees from the first (flat) case. And we set the direction of spin so that the leading edge is toward the front of the cart.

The spinning racket now resembles a propeller; this is not, obviously, a coincidence.

We drive the propeller from the wheels as in the DWFTTW carts, so that the propeller speed is proportional to the cart's ground speed. The gear ratio has to be "correct" relative to the wheel size, the length of the "handles" of the tennis-racket propeller, and the angle of the racket heads. I won't go into details about what makes the ratio correct -- instead, I'll just say that IF the ratio is in fact correct, the following description of what happens will apply.

Starting out at low speed, we have, as before, tennis balls in our tennis ball current ("wind") hitting the back of the rackets. There are a few differences from before: the rackets are at an angle instead of flat on, and are moving laterally. As a result, when a tennis ball hits a racket, it's going to bounce off at an angle instead of straight back. This will give the cart a little less push than before with the flat racket. But, as long as the ball bounces off the racket with a slower forward component to its velocity, some forward momentum will still be transferred to the cart. So the cart can still be pushed to a faster speed by the tennis ball current.

When we start getting near wind speed, things start to look a lot different than before. When the cart is moving near wind speed, a tennis ball will take a lot of time to catch up to the cart. But when it does, it encounters a racket that is moving fairly quickly laterally, at an angle. As a result, instead of just weakly bouncing off as it would off a flat racket fixed to the cart, the ball will still be deflected energetically. As before it won't be driven straight back but as long as the forward component of its motion relative to the ground is reduced after the "shot", some forward momentum has been transferred to the cart by the collision. In the cart's reference frame, if we were riding the cart, we see the ball slowly approaching the racket, then being driven mostly backward (but off at an angle) at a much faster speed. From the ground reference frame, we would see the same collision as the ball zipping along at "wind" speed, hitting the racket, and being slowed way down while being deflected off to one side or another. That's the "wind" pushing on the cart, even though the cart is already close to wind speed.

But, can this still work at faster than wind speed? At first glance, you might think no, because the tennis balls in the current can no longer "catch up" to the tennis rackets. Instead, the cart and the tennis rackets are catching up to and overtaking tennis balls.

But that's actually not a problem. "Catching up" was never really an issue in the first place, it just seemed that way. What matters is the current, not what any given individual tennis ball in it does. Sure, once the cart is past wind speed, a ball behind the cart can never catch up to it and so will have no effect on it. But the tennis balls the cart catches up to still matter. Because they're still moving forward (relative to the ground), they can still bounce off the back sides of the spinning rackets and propel the cart forward.

Imagine you're riding one of those tennis balls. The cart is behind you moving faster than the "wind" speed (faster than you), then the cart starts passing you. If the rackets were flat or not moving, you could only get hit by them from behind, slowing the cart down. But they're at an angle and moving laterally. So what happens, if you're (un?)lucky, is that the leading edge of one of the rackets cuts in front of you while its trailing edge is still behind you. It then sweeps laterally across your path fast enough that, even though you're going slower than the cart, you collide with the racket before you have a chance to fall behind the trailing edge. As before in the just below wind speed case, your tennis ball is accelerated backward, transferring forward momentum to the cart. (From the ground reference frame, your tennis ball is slowed down in the forward direction, and deflected at some angle.)

This only happens, as I said, with the right combinations of racket angle, racket lateral speed, and relative cart speed. If the racket is too "flat" or not moving laterally (spinning) fast enough, then when the leading edge cuts in front of you you might fall behind the trailing edge before the racket can hit you. If the angle is too great, the ricochet when you do hit might not slow your tennis ball's forward velocity.

Does this help explain it? It amounts to the same thing as the vector diagrams but some people have an easier time visualizing discrete interactive bodies than vectored currents and forces.

One area where the simplified model gets in the way is that if you imagine the tennis-ball cart going exactly at tennis-ball speed, it seems it would "use up" the tennis balls that happened to be traveling with it, and be left in a vacuum! This doesn't happen with actual air, because real wind is a net current in which the individual particles are always moving at all different speeds and directions, so the cart at wind speed cannot run out of air molecules.

Respectfully,
Myriad

I found this explanation to be crudely elegant.
Of course, I thought to myself, "Yes, myriad is a strange bird, and a mod to boot...but let's see him do this with a mixture of golf balls and ping-pong balls."

(sorry, not a big tennis fan; hence analogy is troubling.)
 
You really swallowed that snake-oil, because you think it allows you to make open criticism of qualified academics like Dr Drela, on the basis that you have some imaginary but ineffable ability.

Except I can prove the idea is false. It's a joke played on internet wannabees.
 
humber never heard the aphorism about finding yourself in a hole, Or if he has, he either thinks the converse is "really" true, or he completely failed to comprehend it.

Have you heard of the Peter Principle? You met that the first time you tried to dig a hole.
Carteers are amusing for their psychology, but not at all to be taken seriously.
The TM is dead, even if you never accept that. There are more than 6 billion on this planet, so there are bound to be some that see the face of Jesus in a tortilla.
 
We don't do a lot of things that guys like humber and RCP ask us to do. It's not productive as RCP won't remember it tomorrow anyway.
Textbook ad hominem argument jbt; your specialty. So with my half brain I assume you’re saying the foam popcorn will go slower than ws, yes? So if I Ratant’s cart can go up the TM but not outrun the popcorn, what will you say then? And didn’t you claim earlier that Feynman’s Sprinkler had been decided beyond any doubt?
popc1[1].gif


I looked at this soon after jb mentioned the name mender. While I didn’t read all 50+ pages, I covered about 10 or so jumping around. Looked pretty similar to here to me. A few who raised questions were quickly convinced and only Kent kept arguing against it.

Well then, either you can't see the forest for the trees or your focusing more on the actors than the words of the play. I mean who gives a **** about spork palming a basketball in this discussion: you and humber. Think about that.
Were you more familiar with the history of this saga you’d realize I’ve stated many times I was far more interested in the characters here than the rudimentary, fundamental physics involved. As to who cares about spork palming a basketball, you better ask him. I didn’t post it on YT, he did. I merely thought it was hilarious. I'm mostly here for the humor. And you?

Dave,

Wikipedia lists the speed of an average O2 molecule at 27C at about 5000 m/sec.

This is not to be confused with windspeed. They are lively little critters.
Wait a second! Does this mean Humber was right about something? I have read here many times that this never happens! :eek:

He did accept that DDWFTTW is real, but never accepted the treadmill as a valid transform. I still have little doubt that he would if we spent some more time on the topic, but he's a busy guy like most of us, and I bothered him enough.
So you’ve released his children? :D Hope your tinkering presentation went well today. You are a tinker guru. :)

Yes a link to Camps e-mail was posted several times. He now says that DDWFTTW doesn't necessarily violate any conservation laws.
I agree that's what he said in the email, a far cry from saying ddw.. was real. Sounded to me like he thought this concession was the only way to get the Chief to stop calling. ;)

@Michael: I will give an extensive reply to your last question directed to me on TR. Elements of it would be OT here.
 
Careful here!

The wheel could be have all its parts going downwind but parts of it wouldn't be going as fast as the wind. If it was rolling on the surface, the tangent point would have a zero instantaneous velocity so that is debatable. This is in the spirit of parts moving parallel to the wind but not at windspeed. If we go back to the original assertion of all parts going at windspeed or greater, a wheel rolling on the surface wouldn't qualify. Then again, one would assume from the discussion we didn't start it at windspeed so until it reaches WS, all main parts aren't at WS. One can quickly see how this devolves into semantics and the trivial!

Regards,

WindGrins:D

Absolutely!
Hasn't this been a semantics argument from the beginning?
Long ago and far away, I got caught up in a hppv contest; the one for human powered boats; prize money for exceeding 20 knots; perhaps you know about this; I've been out of touch for years...anyway, my design was rejected by the judges because it involved a spring, of sorts. (actually, more like a propulsive, boingy flagella device) that was NOT pre-loaded. It had to be 'wound up' during the run, by human power, which, to me, was clearly within the spirit of the contest.

Hence, my frustration with semantics arguments, and the occasional over-bearing 'correctness-in-spite-of science' stance of the judges of such events, whom often have little else to add to the discussion.

Analogous to this, yet perhaps off-topic here, is the realm of pro-bike racing, which to this day, reject increased sophistication of human powered transport machines because they don't fit the historical (petty and arbitrary) definition of what a bicycle must be to be called a bicycle.

I have a small chip on my shoulder concerning such matters...mostly because it stifles the true advances we have made, collectively, in a field that is important (to me, at least), basically trying to do more with less.

Excuse the mini-rant, please. I had my 15 minutes of fame in 1984 by building a house that required no heater; this was in Pennsylvania, btw.
This house ran into endless bureaucratic hassles, even though it was featured and explained in some high volume magazines at the time.
Guess what initially got it condemned?!
It didn't have enough insulation to pass code!

(end quarky mini-rant about semantics)
 
I agree that's what he said in the email, a far cry from saying ddw.. was real. Sounded to me like he thought this concession was the only way to get the Chief to stop calling. ;)
Probably. He also said that he couldn't think of a machine that could do that,
so ruling out the BB, and that even in the C of E were not broken, it may not go faster than the wind. I suspect that contradiction is the result of Sporkian editing.
 
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