Are most homosexuals atheists?

That's a false statement. Clearly religions do change with the times - just not fast enough and not for the right reasons.

The people change. The writ doesn't. We're being asked about the cherry-picking that seems necessary today, since the bible and some other major writings don't get updated to reflect any changes of any sort.


Heck, they don't think the earth is flat these days.

Did that change make it into the bible, or does it still say what it always said?

They are starting more and more to accept evolution.

And they changed the bible to reflect that?

The pope recently talked about the big bang.

And edited the bible?


To quote MD, "Christianity has been dragged kicking and screaming to the 21st century".

A religion must evolve or perish.

They generally don't like to change, but if it's a choice between dropping the faith entirely or simply adjusting it, they'll choose the later.

When they adjust the bible to reflect their changing beliefs, you'll have a point. Until then, the bible's unchanging text is one of the major reasons for modern cherry-picking.
 
When they adjust the bible to reflect their changing beliefs, you'll have a point. Until then, the bible's unchanging text is one of the major reasons for modern cherry-picking.

But for the catholic church they see no need to edit the bible, if the bible contradicts an ex cathedra statement of the pope then it is the bible which is wrong. Why go back and try to erase history and not just say, well the bible may say that, but the bible got it wrong?

It's only if you take the bible as some kind of definitive guide to Christianity that this becomes a problem. The majority of Christian denominations, covering most of the worlds Christians don't take this view. Indeed eth view that the bible is the definitive guide to Christianity is a pretty modern and a predominantly American position.

The best analogy I can think of is a common-law system of laws. Judicial findings can alter the meaning of laws and can even make laws obsolete. However that doesn't mean that the laws themselves are always removed from the statue books, They are just ignored as unenforceable and irrelevant. That's not seen as "cherry picking then laws" it's just seen as interpreting the laws based on the formal statements of opinion of a higher authority.

To a strict Catholic a biblical literalist is likea person who says that the law, or the constitution in teh case of the USA, is perfectly clear and we don't need courts or judges (or in some cases even lawyers) to interpret it for us.
 
...snip..

To a strict Catholic a biblical literalist is likea person who says that the law, or the constitution in teh case of the USA, is perfectly clear and we don't need courts or judges (or in some cases even lawyers) to interpret it for us.

And if you follow the RCC's teachings then such a literalist is a heretic and indeed will not be saved.
 
But for the catholic church they see no need to edit the bible, if the bible contradicts an ex cathedra statement of the pope then it is the bible which is wrong. Why go back and try to erase history and not just say, well the bible may say that, but the bible got it wrong?

...snip...


I bet the RCC are probably are relieved when someone says "But the bible says that X is wrong..." as that is easy to deal with compared to the tortuous reasoning they have to use to explain away why what we think are changes to doctrines (say something like slavery) because they can't say "yeah we got it wrong" in the same way as they can say "It's just a story" to something in the Bible.

If you stop to think a moment one of the most contentious issues for the RCC in modern times is contraception, you will not find that their current stand arises not from the bible but from church teachings.
 
If you stop to think a moment one of the most contentious issues for the RCC in modern times is contraception, you will not find that their current stand arises not from the bible but from church teachings.
Celibacy for priests would be another one.
 
Celibacy for priests would be another one.

The policy of clerical celibacy and chastity* runs contrary to the teachings of the bible, where it is made clear that a man cannot run a church properly unless he can run his family properly. Catholic doctrine obviously supersedes this in the eyes of the catholic church but they have never edited the passage out of the bible.



*I'll make the distinction just to keep Soapy Sam happy
 
But for the catholic church they see no need to edit the bible, if the bible contradicts an ex cathedra statement of the pope then it is the bible which is wrong. Why go back and try to erase history and not just say, well the bible may say that, but the bible got it wrong?

It's only if you take the bible as some kind of definitive guide to Christianity that this becomes a problem. The majority of Christian denominations, covering most of the worlds Christians don't take this view. Indeed eth view that the bible is the definitive guide to Christianity is a pretty modern and a predominantly American position.


Yes. The latter's habit of cherry-picking from what they claim to be literal truth is what I'm addressing.
 
You cherry pick it to make the Bible say what you want it to say?

I don't think that's an accurate way to say it at all, no. We don't think it's the inerrant word of God. We recognize that it was written and edited by many people with different perspectives, and that it is full of contradictions and historical inaccuracies. Some of these things are allegorical, others are due to outdated cultural norms, others are propaganda, others are just plain wrong.

Yes, the church believes that Jesus was a real figure, and they also believe in his divinity (me, not so much on that last part - but I still love this church and the ethical / philosophical / ideological stands they take). I wouldn't count it as "cherry picking" for someone to read something from any ancient source and suggest that parts of it are inaccurate or distorted by the culture of the time.

I'm not suggesting you should agree with them, but "cherry picking" isn't really what is going on.
 
I don't think that's an accurate way to say it at all, no. We don't think it's the inerrant word of God. We recognize that it was written and edited by many people with different perspectives, and that it is full of contradictions and historical inaccuracies. Some of these things are allegorical, others are due to outdated cultural norms, others are propaganda, others are just plain wrong.

Yes, the church believes that Jesus was a real figure, and they also believe in his divinity (me, not so much on that last part - but I still love this church and the ethical / philosophical / ideological stands they take). I wouldn't count it as "cherry picking" for someone to read something from any ancient source and suggest that parts of it are inaccurate or distorted by the culture of the time.

I'm not suggesting you should agree with them, but "cherry picking" isn't really what is going on.

I don't know, it sounds like cherry picking to me. You are ignoring things that don't fit in with society today, and taking things that fall in with your beliefs and how today's society operates. Why would a divine, all knowing, all powerful god leave his word up for interpretation, distortion, and inaccuracy? So given what is said in the Bible, do you think that homosexuality is immoral?
 
I don't know, it sounds like cherry picking to me. You are ignoring things that don't fit in with society today, and taking things that fall in with your beliefs and how today's society operates. Why would a divine, all knowing, all powerful god leave his word up for interpretation, distortion, and inaccuracy? So given what is said in the Bible, do you think that homosexuality is immoral?

He didn't - according the likes of the OC and the RCC. god works through those churches, this keeps going back to your apparent belief that a very, very small minority of Christians let's call them the "literalists" repression Christianity. If we look at it as a matter of numbers they cannot be said to represent the vast majority of Christians regarding this matter.
 
He didn't - according the likes of the OC and the RCC. god works through those churches, this keeps going back to your apparent belief that a very, very small minority of Christians let's call them the "literalists" repression Christianity. If we look at it as a matter of numbers they cannot be said to represent the vast majority of Christians regarding this matter.

I am not even talking about the literalists now. I know when I was a christian, my church taught that god no longer speaks to people. I don't know what other churches believe, but if he no longer speaks to people, then how could he work through the church? Also, I am pretty sure that all churchs believe that god is all knowing, all powerful, etc. If this is the case, why have his written word be so ********** up?
 
I am not even talking about the literalists now. I know when I was a christian, my church taught that god no longer speaks to people. I don't know what other churches believe, but if he no longer speaks to people, then how could he work through the church? Also, I am pretty sure that all churchs believe that god is all knowing, all powerful, etc. If this is the case, why have his written word be so ********** up?
What denomination was that? In the church I went to, God very much speaks to people.
 
Not when you remember the time line i.e. the Bible is younger than the two major churches (OC & RC). They existed before the bible, they actually created the bible they use today, they decided what to put in it and what not to put in it. So it is hardly surprising that those churches believe that they know what the bible means - they wrote the bloody thing after all.

Your point is a bit like a fan of a novel arguing with the author that they know better than she does what her novel was about!

Not in the least.

This is about the church knowingly and openly contradicting what the Bible says, not twisting and interpreting what it says in a way no sane human ever would.

As a fan, I would feel quite justified to point out that, say, George Lucas is talking a load of bullocks if he announced that Princess Leia was not the Sister of Luke Skywalker.

Also, the difference here is that the same person would be the source of the contradicting information. Lucas *could* extend the story and explain how it was all a huge mistake that they ever tohught to be siblings. Neither Lucas nor any characters in the Star Wars Universe claim inerrant knowledge about everything, do they?

Oh: And nobody claims Star Wars is real! You analogy might start to work if I demanded DNA samples from the characters or if Lucas even offered to provide these same samples!

Re: Tradition of Celibacy
In what twisted universe does that make for a coherent argument? Nothing ever is more or less justified or more or less contradicting the Bible depending on how long it has been going on.

The tradition must have started somehow and somewhere and some time. Was the justification good back then?
 
What denomination was that? In the church I went to, God very much speaks to people.

Non denominational. The church I went to believed that he does not directly speak to people, but still works with them indirectly. I remember we had a guest speaker give a sermon during one of our youth retreats once. He brought a large back pack with a bunch of heavy items in it. He gave a speech, and the whole point of it was to let Jesus carry the weight on his shoulders, so you don't have to. We were supposed to "Take all of our stress and put it on Jesus". I thought that this was all well and good, and I talked to him privately and asked him how I go about putting all of this stress on Jesus. I had a lot of school work, a full time job, and I was a "star athlete". So I was very curious how I could lift some of that weight off of my shoulders. But when I asked him, he couldn't really explain how to do it (Go figure). He kept saying I just need to "Let Jesus carry the weight". I left very disappointed.
 
I only ask because that's normally a Catholic thing. It's the Catholics who believe that God only works through intermediaries (ie, the Pope and the ecclesiastical heirarchy). The Protestants started the idea of individuals having a 'personal relationship with God'.

And then the Pentecostals conducted a reductio ad absurdum on the idea.
 
I know lots of homosexuals who say they are christian. None seem too interested in reconciling what the bible says with their lifestyle. They "just are." :confused:

I'm with you though, who would want to belong to an organization that doesn't want you?

Why do female politicians claim to be christian, and none of them seem too interested in reconciling what the bible says with their profession.

All Christians ignore portions of the bible they don't like.
 
I am not even talking about the literalists now. I know when I was a christian, my church taught that god no longer speaks to people. I don't know what other churches believe, but if he no longer speaks to people, then how could he work through the church? Also, I am pretty sure that all churchs believe that god is all knowing, all powerful, etc. If this is the case, why have his written word be so ********** up?

Highlighted part first - because it is a work of men and by definition (the church's) men are flawed (and I use men on purpose rather than human ;) ).

The second point, I am surprised to hear that there is a denomination that doesn't believe we still have a direct connection to god.
 
Not in the least.

This is about the church knowingly and openly contradicting what the Bible says, not twisting and interpreting what it says in a way no sane human ever would.

A few points on this, first of all the bible is a work of man not God (as the major denominations know because they created it!) so the major denominations would claim by definition that it has to be flawed, and that does not mean it could be flawed it means the church knows it will be found to be flawed.

As a fan, I would feel quite justified to point out that, say, George Lucas is talking a load of bullocks if he announced that Princess Leia was not the Sister of Luke Skywalker.

That would seem to be you placing what the films say above what their creator says, that is not the order of precedence as far as the major Christian denominations are concerned.

Also, the difference here is that the same person would be the source of the contradicting information. Lucas *could* extend the story and explain how it was all a huge mistake that they ever tohught to be siblings. Neither Lucas nor any characters in the Star Wars Universe claim inerrant knowledge about everything, do they?

...snip...

Again you have to remember all man's works are flawed, even the church, you seem to be want to criticise the major churches for something they do not claim. (It does get slightly more complex than this but lets stay with the broad stroke approach - the RCC especially has been discussing all the nuances of this point for centuries - so it is impossible without taking a doctrine in theology to even briefly cover the detail!)


Re: Tradition of Celibacy
In what twisted universe does that make for a coherent argument? Nothing ever is more or less justified or more or less contradicting the Bible depending on how long it has been going on.

The tradition must have started somehow and somewhere and some time. Was the justification good back then?

Again this is an organisation that has over a thousand years to work out how in its own view it is not contradicting itself; it's founded whole departments that have worked on these ideas constantly for centuries, there really is nothing else like it in the annuals of human history so as far as the church is concerned what we consider to be contradictions are our lack of understanding.

Of course these changes are contradictory when viewed from outside the church, I am not arguing they aren't, I'm just trying to make sure we deal the claims the major churches actually make, so we don't waste our time inadvertently criticising strawmen such as giving the bible a status not to be found within those major churches.
 
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